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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On January 28 2020 01:37 Kitai wrote: We're 2 pages in and so far only one person had a meltdown about one award. Could this be the least controversial yearly awards yet?! Good work! Just you wait for when Rogue-Trap is crown best series of the year. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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zenDO
Spain25 Posts
Hoping that 2020 will bring many more epic moments to SC2. ^-^ | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On January 28 2020 00:33 Xain0n wrote: Dark is player of the year by your standards but not "by any sensible metric" or "clearly"; Serral won more titles, placed higher on average and had a better win ratio. Just want to point this out but I have no intention to discuss it further since I think giving Dark the award was an acceptable decision after all. Comparing results obtained in different years is kind of pointless, Maru's year in 2018 was better than Dark's in 2019 for example. Aaaaaah there it is Let's just say that ranking WCS, GSL vs the world, and Homestory Cups as equal to or greater than Blizzcon, Code S, Super Tournament, or Katowice goes beyond my definiton of "a sensible metric". Winrates or sheer number of events won (without context) is also not a sensible way to rank players in a game like SC2. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On January 28 2020 04:49 Fango wrote: Aaaaaah there it is Let's just say that ranking WCS, GSL vs the world, and Homestory Cups as equal to or greater than Blizzcon, Code S, Super Tournament, or Katowice goes beyond my definiton of "a sensible metric". Winrates or sheer number of events won (without context) is also not a sensible way to rank players in a game like SC2. Well Serral did pass him in WESG, and GSLvsTW is pretty much a Super Tournament, you got 8 of the best Koreans + Reynor-Serral, I'd take that over most ST Koreans only brackets missing 2 top 10 player. That leaves IEM Katowice, where Dark went 1 round further, but lost to the runner up while Serral lost the champ. Then it depend how you count it, I would say Dark code S + Blizzcon is better than what Serral has personally, but you can make the point he also has more early exit from tournaments. And you know it's not 2014 anymore, the only players missing from the last HSC were Maru, Rogue, TY and Dark himself, it's not like there's 40 good Koreans anymore. Sure a Bunny is still better than a Namshar but neither Dark or Serral have a habit to lose to any off them, so you know the "code S is better stuff" is less and less clear every year. Just to be clear, it still was last year, I'm unsure it will still be the case this year with the retirement + fresh WCS blood. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16074 Posts
On January 27 2020 10:26 Dave4 wrote: Thanks for this, writers. I appreciate your time and courage. I understand your rationale for Dark. I have to say I honestly think if Reynor didn't happen, Serral would have won this award by a country mile. He was the only reason Serral didn't grand slam WCS and I think if he had reached the finals of Blizzcon he would have been favoured to win over Dark. However, Reynor did exist and the two sharing their glory ended up not quite as high as Dark - so I agree with the decision  Will be interesting to see what 2020 holds. Can't wait! Agreed. The reason Serral didn't win player of the year is that the competition in WCS is so tough with Reynor being there. In GSL Dark has much less competition which is why he could farm that league for easy wins which got him player of the year award | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19364 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On January 28 2020 05:45 BisuDagger wrote: Has there ever been a player of the year who was greatest the first six months and then was outperformed in the second half? I'd say Life in 2015 | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2217 Posts
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Rob-Zero
Germany460 Posts
I think Serral is the best Sc2 player in the world, but Dark had the better 2019. So in my eyes he deserves to be the best player of 2019, he just won the bigger (and harder) competitions. Without Reynor being Serrals Kryptonite, though, i have the feeling Serral would have taken the top spot (because i think he would have beaten Dark in the Blizzcon finals). | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 28 2020 05:05 Nakajin wrote: Well Serral did pass him in WESG, and GSLvsTW is pretty much a Super Tournament, you got 8 of the best Koreans + Reynor-Serral, I'd take that over most ST Koreans only brackets missing 2 top 10 player. That leaves IEM Katowice, where Dark went 1 round further, but lost to the runner up while Serral lost the champ. Then it depend how you count it, I would say Dark code S + Blizzcon is better than what Serral has personally, but you can make the point he also has more early exit from tournaments. And you know it's not 2014 anymore, the only players missing from the last HSC were Maru, Rogue, TY and Dark himself, it's not like there's 40 good Koreans anymore. Sure a Bunny is still better than a Namshar but neither Dark or Serral have a habit to lose to any off them, so you know the "code S is better stuff" is less and less clear every year. Just to be clear, it still was last year, I'm unsure it will still be the case this year with the retirement + fresh WCS blood. So we're missing 3 Code S champions of 2019, a ST Champion of 2019, the future Blizzcon winner and we're missing Classic(how could you?). The best Korean there is Trap who's known for being bad(well, certainly not at his PvT level) in PvZ while facing all the foreign zergs in a game-state considered very pro zerg? I mean, sure, it's not 2014, but let's not pretend the Serral was facing the best of the best either. Edit> Oh, sorry, forgot we're missing both ST winners as I forgot that the tournament ever happened  That's why you shouldn't forget about Classic So we're at what, GSL vs TW and the IEM victors? | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On January 28 2020 00:25 deacon.frost wrote: How many Code S titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 How many World Champion titles in 2k19 go to Serral? 0 Well, the two most important titles of the year were won by soO and Dark(IEM, Blizzcon), Dark added a Code S title, a ST title, 2 top4 finishers in Code S and 1 top4 finisher at IEM. I don't know what kind of metric you want to use to put Serral above all these titles. Especially when Blizzcon was one of the most cited victories which resulted not giving this to Maru at 2k18... Again, you make the logic mistake of judging players' caliber based on their number of single elimination big tournament wins. By your silly little metric, soO would be considered stronger than Serral. lol You have no clue how much of a dice roll these tournament runs are with the crappy SE format designed to appeal to youths and less sophisticated people. It's the same reason why athletic tournaments use the same format, while more sophisticated people, chess players, steer clear from it like the sheer laugh that they know it is. It's more to entertain the stupid crowd than anything legitimate. I've already made it clear too many times what metric I use to evaluate a player's average strength, including once in this thread. Dark's a great player, and his 2019 run was epic and almost Serral-like domination—but he didn't quite make it there, and certainly was not the player of the year. Statistics > biased opinions. Edit: Btw, These people who expect foreigners to participate in these GSL tournaments...hahahaha. They favor Koreans by design. Any foreigner who participates would have to make all kinds of inconvenient and tiresome sacrifices that Koreans wouldn't have to endure. What a joke. GSL has great players, but stop considering this silly tournament as a truly international one—it's primarily for Korean participation, and anyone with brains know it. Just stop using this silly thing as an argument in these debates. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
He won Blizzcon, a GSL weekender and 4 WCS, he's the player of the year Serral fans in 2019: Weekenders have variance. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On January 28 2020 16:38 Ej_ wrote: Serral fans in 2018: He won Blizzcon, a GSL weekender and 4 WCS, he's the player of the year Serral fans in 2019: Weekenders have variance. Oh, look, another strawman sophist. If you're done clowning, Serral fans are not of one mind. I've always minded the guy's winrate far more than I did the number of trophies he collected. In 2018, his winrate against toprate players was head and shoulders above everyone else's. There were idiots proclaiming Maru to be the better player because he won some GSLs, but I knew better. Most Serral fans probably don't even agree with most of my opinions in this thread. The time-length of a tournament should have no bearing on the variance, so I don't know why you mention "weekenders". | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
On January 28 2020 05:42 Charoisaur wrote: Agreed. The reason Serral didn't win player of the year is that the competition in WCS is so tough with Reynor being there. In GSL Dark has much less competition which is why he could farm that league for easy wins which got him player of the year award I don't think you can say GSL has less competition than WCS they are probably equal but Serral just has a hang up with Reynor - he seems to thump everyone else for the last 24 months (except maybe innovation weirdly). | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
On January 28 2020 16:53 Dave4 wrote: I don't think you can say GSL has less competition than WCS they are probably equal but Serral just has a hang up with Reynor - he seems to thump everyone else for the last 24 months (except maybe innovation weirdly). Ofc you cannot think that, because is the exact opposite. GSL has much more competition than WCS, much more, so much more that, in fact only top 2 of WCS can challenge all top 8 and almost all top 16 of GSL. | ||
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yht9657
1810 Posts
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On January 28 2020 17:34 yht9657 wrote: I can't believe anyone in their right mind would put Serral over Dark in PoTY contest. Serral didn't win any of the most important/prestigious tournament in 2019, no Katowice, no Blizzcon, no code S, not even fricking WESG which isn't even hard. I'm too lazy to check but I'm damned certain every PoTY in the past had at least won one of these top-tier titles during their year. What does prestige of an event have anything to do a player's ability? If you think that soO was anywhere near Serral's strength in 2019 because soO earned more money/prestige from winning one giant tournament, then you shouldn't be talking about who's not in their right mind. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4747 Posts
Trap feels like a solid choice for Protoss of the year, but the race still needs some help, hopefully some players can step up. On another note, let's hope we have 32 koreans left to fill Code S in 2020. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 28 2020 10:34 tigon_ridge wrote: Again, you make the logic mistake of judging players' caliber based on their number of single elimination big tournament wins. By your silly little metric, soO would be considered stronger than Serral. lol You have no clue how much of a dice roll these tournament runs are with the crappy SE format designed to appeal to youths and less sophisticated people. It's the same reason why athletic tournaments use the same format, while more sophisticated people, chess players, steer clear from it like the sheer laugh that they know it is. It's more to entertain the stupid crowd than anything legitimate. I've already made it clear too many times what metric I use to evaluate a player's average strength, including once in this thread. Dark's a great player, and his 2019 run was epic and almost Serral-like domination—but he didn't quite make it there, and certainly was not the player of the year. Statistics > biased opinions. Edit: Btw, These people who expect foreigners to participate in these GSL tournaments...hahahaha. They favor Koreans by design. Any foreigner who participates would have to make all kinds of inconvenient and tiresome sacrifices that Koreans wouldn't have to endure. What a joke. GSL has great players, but stop considering this silly tournament as a truly international one—it's primarily for Korean participation, and anyone with brains know it. Just stop using this silly thing as an argument in these debates. The top tournaments of the year are: 2 WC titles> Blizzcon, IEM 3 Code S titles 3 GSL mini-titles - ST1 & 2, GSL v TW These tournaments have the toughest competition. Out of these 8 titles Dark has 1 WC title, 1 Code S title, 1 ST title. Then he has top4 finish at IEM and 2 Code S. No matter how you look at it Dark has the best record when the toughest competition was on the line and only 2 bad results. And I am still avoiding the usage of the Serral 2018 Blizzcon nonsense... Edit> bah, need them drugs to wake me up Where's the coffee machine?! :DEdit 2> this is a statistic based on the players who participated and based on the tournament victories. This is not a biased opinion, this is better statistic than what was for Serral's 2018 case. | ||
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