EPTStarCraft II Balance Update - November 14, 2019
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highsis
259 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26572 Posts
On November 25 2019 20:36 highsis wrote: Serral vs Zest late games left me speechless. So Zerg resource lost was like 5~8k minerals less when Zerg is the race with initiatives in more expansions, resources, replenishment, harass defense and harass. Zerg 200 should be at very least weaker than protoss and terran. It was so sad to watch. In general yes such cost efficiency allied to having such a large economy would be an area that I'd be concerned with. On the other hand I really don't think those games were indicative of much besides Zest not really knowing what he's doing in the lategame. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
On November 25 2019 19:46 darklycid wrote: Isn't it normally the other way around and zerg does worse on new patches as they have to figure out how to react right versus the new stuff that comes? True but mostly P and T opened exactly like they did in the past. Two games stood out to me regarding new builds: I think Inno did a 2-port BC rush and caught Serral unaware and won. And Cure's 2 pronged Mech stood out as well. EDIT: And obviously Zest's "189 gates, 15 stargate into hard throw" build On November 25 2019 20:36 highsis wrote: Serral vs Zest late games left me speechless. So Zerg resource lost was like 5~8k minerals less when Zerg is the race with initiatives in more expansions, resources, replenishment, harass defense and harass. Zerg 200 should be at very least weaker than protoss and terran. It was so sad to watch. Zest threw that game away. Nothing to do with Zerg OP. He had 40 Zealots stand idle for like 5mins. And he slowly let his armada get picked apart without doing anything | ||
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darklycid
3541 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
If vipers are weaker and protoss can theorically always feedback them, then zerg has no answer to protoss late game.( You cant attack skytoss headon with corruptor broodlords). As long as game is balanced around abduct, zerg late game ZvP will always be too strong or too weak. Same for neural in ZvT really. Zerg high tech unit design is complete trash. Broodlords are way way too slow for todays maps, cant attack air, need support, and are just the most boring unit in the game. BCS can teleport, shoot while moving, yamato. Tempests are fast and can recall, carriers can recall and attack ground and air... There is no unit that forces deathballing more than broodlords. Ultralisks also cant attack air, are a melee a-move only unit withj no abilities and are also very trash on their own. They only are useful against terran bio(a small part of one of the 3 races) what a trash unit. Also why is it that most zerg unit cant attack air? Its true at all tiers. Corruptors, also a super boring unit that has huge weaknesses. Zerg right now is balanced around infestors/vipers and have been for years. Without those, broodlords are actually terrible. Abduct is terrible design, neural is also impossible to balance. Those two probably cant stay in the game and zerg late game needs a big overhaul. For now, I promise you will miss broodlord infestor. What is about to come is much worse. Because zerg optimal gameplay will soon be mass queens into hydra lurker spore turtle with mass static D and vipers abducting everything into spores/lurkers. In every single matchup. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19330 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
On November 26 2019 08:59 BisuDagger wrote: Was there anything in the patch that actually helped Inno in his wins vs Serral? I think Papa Thor was used in at least one of those games | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
I guess they aren't wrong in game, so the season will indeed end 28th november, but since there was a maintenance tonight, the patch has gone live already? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
On November 26 2019 19:33 Poopi wrote: I have a question: why do they say the start of next season is 26th november, whereas in game they say the season is ending 28th november? I guess they aren't wrong in game, so the season will indeed end 28th november, but since there was a maintenance tonight, the patch has gone live already? Maybe it's a timezone thing? Normal patchday is Tuesday but for EU it's actually Wednesday if I recall correctly | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On November 26 2019 08:10 Snakestyle11 wrote: Broodlords cant attack air, BCS can teleport, shoot while moving, yamato. Tempests are fast and can recall, carriers can recall and attack ground and air... Ultralisks also cant attack air. Corruptors, also a super boring unit. Abduct is terrible design, neural is also impossible to balance What an awesome recap! You nailed it man! Really helped me a lot to understand the meta! TL writers, take notes. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7142 Posts
On November 26 2019 21:34 insitelol wrote: What an awesome recap! You nailed it man! Really helped me a lot to understand the meta! TL writers, take notes. Don't feed him... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26572 Posts
On November 26 2019 08:59 BisuDagger wrote: Was there anything in the patch that actually helped Inno in his wins vs Serral? It looked to me like Inno was in pretty decent shape, did what Inno does and took him out. I don’t think it’s coincidence that Reynor beat Innovation after he took out Serral, and that Serral won the rematch. I’ll have to rewatch as maybe I’m misremembering but it felt like the two Zergs adapted to what Inno was showing. | ||
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Aesto
44 Posts
On November 25 2019 20:50 Wombat_NI wrote: In general yes such cost efficiency allied to having such a large economy would be an area that I'd be concerned with. On the other hand I really don't think those games were indicative of much besides Zest not really knowing what he's doing in the lategame. Is there any top tier Protoss who does know what he's doing in PvZ lategame? Zest - no Trap - no Classic - no Stats - His play LOOKS like he knows, but he still loses all the same Sure, it's possible that all of the world's best Protoss just happen to be bad at PvZ lategame. But is it as plausible as the alternative explanation? | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19330 Posts
On November 27 2019 02:26 Aesto wrote: Is there any top tier Protoss who does know what he's doing in PvZ lategame? Zest - no Trap - no Classic - no Stats - His play LOOKS like he knows, but he still loses all the same Sure, it's possible that all of the world's best Protoss just happen to be bad at PvZ lategame. But is it as plausible as the alternative explanation? The certainly did not know what to do in HSC. So many yoinks destroyed carriers and motherships. It felt like the tempest was the better Stargate unit as it can keep a better distance from vipers. I hope to see tempest utilized better in the future. | ||
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Comedy
469 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
I would like for Blizzard to make the late game fights a little more like "fights" instead of zerg outlasting and picking off units for 10 minutes until they win. The High Templar nerf should be undone. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On November 27 2019 03:36 youngjiddle wrote: yoinks yoinks yoinks yoinks I would like for Blizzard to make the late game fights a little more like "flights" instead of zerg outlasting and picking off units for 10 minutes until they win. The High Templar nerf should be undone. Yeah rework the carriers, there are OP, no skill and boring. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Legan
Finland577 Posts
Also, I feel that there probably should be some dedicated late game ground-to-air units for all races, like siege tank, liberator or disruptor that can only attack air units. These could give ground units way to zone out and deal with air units by themselves. In theory, if you could destroy these units from enemy's army, then your air units could come to clean up rest of enemy units. | ||
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
On November 27 2019 04:29 Legan wrote: I feel that problem with current situation with patch is that Zerg wasn't forced to change their late game even with significant nerfs or given actually alternative composition to use. Same think happened with Terran and Protoss too to some extend. Thus, currently Zerg plays the same with nerfed units while benefiting from existing recent experience of playing the same way and Protoss plays with same units but is still not adjusted to play more "aggressive" against nerfed Zerg, because of having learned to play in boundaries set by previous version of Zerg late game. Even while knowing situation has changed they can not yet use it to their benefit without feeling that they are playing too risky. Maybe things will change as players adjust better to the patch and maybe Zerg even start to struggle because not seeing clear direction where to take their late game. Also, I feel that there probably should be some dedicated late game ground-to-air units for all races, like siege tank, liberator or disruptor that can only attack air units. These could give ground units way to zone out and deal with air units by themselves. In theory, if you could destroy these units from enemy's army, then your air units could come to clean up rest of enemy units. ground to air only units is a bad idea imo since they will be too situational. besides, i would argue that this role- long range strategic anti air, is already occupied: thor for T, tempest for P, viper (abduct) for Z. | ||
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samchan1331
17 Posts
On November 26 2019 08:10 Snakestyle11 wrote: Late game ZvP will never be 100% balanced. If vipers are strong enough, zerg can in theory slowly abduct expensive units one by one all game, If vipers are weaker and protoss can theorically always feedback them, then zerg has no answer to protoss late game.( You cant attack skytoss headon with corruptor broodlords). As long as game is balanced around abduct, zerg late game ZvP will always be too strong or too weak. Same for neural in ZvT really. Zerg high tech unit design is complete trash. Broodlords are way way too slow for todays maps, cant attack air, need support, and are just the most boring unit in the game. BCS can teleport, shoot while moving, yamato. Tempests are fast and can recall, carriers can recall and attack ground and air... There is no unit that forces deathballing more than broodlords. Ultralisks also cant attack air, are a melee a-move only unit withj no abilities and are also very trash on their own. They only are useful against terran bio(a small part of one of the 3 races) what a trash unit. Also why is it that most zerg unit cant attack air? Its true at all tiers. Corruptors, also a super boring unit that has huge weaknesses. Zerg right now is balanced around infestors/vipers and have been for years. Without those, broodlords are actually terrible. Abduct is terrible design, neural is also impossible to balance. Those two probably cant stay in the game and zerg late game needs a big overhaul. For now, I promise you will miss broodlord infestor. What is about to come is much worse. Because zerg optimal gameplay will soon be mass queens into hydra lurker spore turtle with mass static D and vipers abducting everything into spores/lurkers. In every single matchup. This is very insightful. | ||
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