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On October 05 2019 14:35 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 11:34 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 08:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On October 05 2019 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 07:49 Boggyb wrote:On October 05 2019 04:32 pissinmyhand wrote:
how about we just make it so mothership cant be pulled or neuraled Or better yet just delete Abduct and Neural Parasite. Deleting abduct would have... interesting effects on ZvZ. Also is there anyone that's against the idea of increasing the supply cost of infestors? Too big of a nerf - the proposed nerfs should be enough to make infestors reasonably strong. What nerfs? Ok I’ll concede in practice basically giving Infestors half the number of ITs who are individual 2x as strong is a functional nerf, in that opponents can kill them a bit easier. Giving Infestors neural by default is a buff, and a pretty big one IMO. They are still way too good at way too many different things and the synergy with Brood Lords is still entirely intact. A supply change is long overdue IMO. By all means make them potent, but to have 10+ or whatever negatively impacting the strength of your other army seems a no-brainer Despite many other disagreements, if there’s one general common thread across Protoss, Terran and even Zerg it’s that BL/Infestor is too strong, and just boring. These proposed patches do a lot of other things, some I find interesting but they don’t address that composition at all really. I think people are really underestimating the massive nerf a change to 3 supply would be. Without a globe of Infestors, Zerg is virtually helpless against Terran and Protoss late game compositions. Only being able to build 67% of the infestors for the same supply is devastating. Infestors below a critical mass cannot contend with Skytoss + massive splash + warp ins, or the insane efficiency and firepower of a 200/200 Terran. Infestors are the equalizer for Zerg late game, as the rest of their units do not compete. BLs and Ultras are not strong enough. Herein lies the problem since there is a very fine line between Zerg's late game being helpless vs overpowered and it's all really based on the capabilities of infestor. 3 supply infestor would massively shift that balanced towards the helpless end of the spectrum. Barring mass Infestors, Zerg AA simply does not hold up to maxed out capital ship-based armies. Hydras die to everything, Corruptors will get shredded by support units if they get into range of BCs/Carriers/Tempests, and vipers are too easy to kill/neutralize for them to be a reliable and cost effective AA Your acting like an infestor nerf would happen in a vacuum. Obviously zerg needs something to give them not just an even playing field but an edge late game due to the way the game is balanced. We just want that edge to not come from the most static boring and grinding army in the game. I want to see more games like the one Ragnorok had vs Maru where he used nydus mobility and his bank to take the fight to the terran in the late game. That's a way more exciting premise for late game than zerg sitting on their unengageable static d+ infestor+ bl comp while trying to slowly bleed their opponent to death. Id be more ok with infestor bl if it was more like mech where it was counterable with clear weaknesses and strengths. and although efficient could be traded against and worn down over time due to its inability to hold far flung basses effectively. The problem with bl infestor is that its so efficient that its weaknesses are just not relevant enough. Who cares that its hard to hold far away basses if your army is so extremely strong that it takes 3 to 4 fights where your opponent losses everything to wear it down? Who cares that you cant mine as much as your opponent when you have a 3k 4k bank due to the design of your race and the efficiency of your late game. Give zerg better tools to leverage a big bank into a win. But make them spend that bank, take risks and play aggressively to do so. Take away the tools to camp on their static d and wait for the map to run dry. This would lead to a way more interesting and engaging late game.
I dont think a drastic infestor nerf would happen in a vacuum
however, a drastic infestor nerf would lead to a drastic buff elsewhere, and that will destroy the dynamics of the game that is already almost 5 years old (LOTV).
Again - I am not saying that infestors shouldnt be nerfed
I am saying that 3 supply infestors would be too drastic of a nerf.
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On October 05 2019 16:57 deacon.frost wrote:
So no BL-infestor quick fixes before Blizzcon? Yeah, at least I know my lost hope wasn't wrong...
Theres no way they could just hot fix BL infestor b4 blizzcon. They will need to add compensation and that will take testing and iterations to get right its not realistic.
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On October 06 2019 02:34 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 16:57 deacon.frost wrote:
So no BL-infestor quick fixes before Blizzcon? Yeah, at least I know my lost hope wasn't wrong... Theres no way they could just hot fix BL infestor b4 blizzcon. They will need to add compensation and that will take testing and iterations to get right its not realistic.
The God damned GSL champion said Zerg is OP and you think that Zerg would get "compensation" as if the change would be purely one of design. Stop huffing Terrazine.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On October 06 2019 02:15 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 12:19 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 11:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 11:34 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 08:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On October 05 2019 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 07:49 Boggyb wrote:On October 05 2019 04:32 pissinmyhand wrote:
how about we just make it so mothership cant be pulled or neuraled Or better yet just delete Abduct and Neural Parasite. Deleting abduct would have... interesting effects on ZvZ. Also is there anyone that's against the idea of increasing the supply cost of infestors? Too big of a nerf - the proposed nerfs should be enough to make infestors reasonably strong. What nerfs? Ok I’ll concede in practice basically giving Infestors half the number of ITs who are individual 2x as strong is a functional nerf, in that opponents can kill them a bit easier. Giving Infestors neural by default is a buff, and a pretty big one IMO. They are still way too good at way too many different things and the synergy with Brood Lords is still entirely intact. A supply change is long overdue IMO. By all means make them potent, but to have 10+ or whatever negatively impacting the strength of your other army seems a no-brainer Despite many other disagreements, if there’s one general common thread across Protoss, Terran and even Zerg it’s that BL/Infestor is too strong, and just boring. These proposed patches do a lot of other things, some I find interesting but they don’t address that composition at all really. I think people are really underestimating the massive nerf a change to 3 supply would be. Without a globe of Infestors, Zerg is virtually helpless against Terran and Protoss late game compositions. Only being able to build 67% of the infestors for the same supply is devastating. Infestors below a critical mass cannot contend with Skytoss + massive splash + warp ins, or the insane efficiency and firepower of a 200/200 Terran. Infestors are the equalizer for Zerg late game, as the rest of their units do not compete. BLs and Ultras are not strong enough. Herein lies the problem since there is a very fine line between Zerg's late game being helpless vs overpowered and it's all really based on the capabilities of infestor. 3 supply infestor would massively shift that balanced towards the helpless end of the spectrum. Barring mass Infestors, Zerg AA simply does not hold up to maxed out capital ship-based armies. Hydras die to everything, Corruptors will get shredded by support units if they get into range of BCs/Carriers/Tempests, and vipers are too easy to kill/neutralize for them to be a reliable and cost effective AA I think you underestimate how much people hate mass infestor. If increasing the supply cost makes mass infestor a thing of the past so much the better. Getting to nerf skytoss/skyterran armies afterwards for balance reasons sounds like a bonus to me. A 3 supply infestor is such a huge nerf that sky protoss and sky terran would have to be massively nerfed too. That sets everything out of whack, as Terran and Protoss ground units would need to be heavily changed to maintain balance. For example, if you heavily nerf the infestor and skytoss, then Zerg just wins by virtue of the fact that Protoss comps that are heavily ground based are straight up trash against zerg in the lategame. Protoss also heavily relies on skytoss for late game anti air. You significantly nerf skytoss and then you need to significantly buff Protoss ground to air capabilities and that screws with PvT. There is literally no point in significantly nerfing an equalizer unit like the infestor. It just creates more balance problems than it solves. You saw what happened when the Protoss lategame backbone was heavily nerfed - you get a disaster of a PvZ where protoss desperately tries to end the game before Zerg lategame can kill maxed out armies several times over. Zerg is designed around a powerful infestor. There's really nothing anyone can do about it at this point unless you want to redesign the game from scratch. Changing the supply to 3 is insane. It's like changing the battlecruiser's supply to 9... Which is fine? Late game Skytoss got nerfed til it largely sucked, even though IMO PvZ was in its best state ever, albeit still not perfect when Skytoss was good Zerg has other advantages in that matchup and can win by other means. Can make a few tweaks if not the case. Likewise Terran and mass BCs teleporting everywhere, which was cool for about 10 minutes for novelty’s sake and is just a bit silly. Blizz don’t have to make every composition competitively viable, I think their mistake is trying to do so. Most players and spectators don’t like big late game air balls, certainly don’t like BL/Infestor in its current state, and most think the Infestor is way too good, there’s few drawbacks in massing them etc. It feels like this patch is just a whole bunch of changes meant to rebalance the game while keeping those two factors largely intact, instead of toning those things down and rebalancing to give other options to compensate. Completely changing the game, essentially from scratch, will kill SC2, which is why I don't think it's fine. Despite the fact that I do think that ideally, heavy redesigns everywhere are ideal. The elephant in the room is that Protoss ground is severely outclassed in the lategame. Which is why Skytoss deathball has to be viable. Protoss ground simply doesnt scale well, has poverty AA capabilities, and gets eviscerated in the lategame. A 3 supply infestor would make lategame balance HEAVILY in favor of protoss (and Terran, but I'm one of the few who believe that terran lategame actually beats zerg lategame). To balance this skytoss would require further nerfs, essentially turning it from the garbage it is now to a pile of crap. Because of these nerfs Protoss ground to air capabilities would have to be buffed, and they'd probably turn the immortal into a mini thor, since buffing stalkers would make them broken - whatever the case protoss ground would become broken as they now are capable of handling air units. I can go on and on, but the point is that drastic changes in units lead to drastic metagame changes, and that is a death knell for an already dying game. It should not happen for a variety of reasons.
If it’s for the better it will benefit the game, radical or not.
HoTS Protoss ‘needed’ the mothership core to be viable at certain times.
Instead of just accepting that, Blizzard removed it, gave Protoss shield batteries and the game improved. When Ravens were extremely strong and massable they got nerfed too.
Sure you have to change a lot potentially, change a lot. fine by me personally.
Blizzard want these mass air balls to be viable, Infestors must be strong so Zergs can deal with them. Why? Air balls are boring, they circumvent terrain and generally aren’t microable or interesting to watch.
Tone down air balls across the board, give units a niche to fulfill by all means but not be so potent when masses.
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I'm the only one that thinks BL range decrease will make a difference?
I mean wouldn't it be easier now to EMP them or feesback/storm them now? Or yeah, just kill them cuz brooding can't protect them as good anymore?
+spamming infested terran and not getting damge done can now hurt zerg even.
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On October 06 2019 06:13 gulii wrote:
I'm the only one that thinks BL range decrease will make a difference?
I mean wouldn't it be easier now to EMP them or feesback/storm them now? Or yeah, just kill them cuz brooding can't protect them as good anymore?
+spamming infested terran and not getting damge done can now hurt zerg even.
While the Broodlords are important, they are not what makes the composition work. That's the infestor. If Broodlords become too weak, Zergs will just pair the Infestor with something else like Lurkers or Swarmhosts.
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On October 06 2019 06:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 06:13 gulii wrote:
I'm the only one that thinks BL range decrease will make a difference?
I mean wouldn't it be easier now to EMP them or feesback/storm them now? Or yeah, just kill them cuz brooding can't protect them as good anymore?
+spamming infested terran and not getting damge done can now hurt zerg even.
While the Broodlords are important, they are not what makes the composition work. That's the infestor. If Broodlords become too weak, Zergs will just pair the Infestor with something else like Lurkers or Swarmhosts.
Wouldn't that mean that tempest would become a viable counter, maybe even carriers?
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On October 06 2019 07:46 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 06:48 Boggyb wrote:On October 06 2019 06:13 gulii wrote:
I'm the only one that thinks BL range decrease will make a difference?
I mean wouldn't it be easier now to EMP them or feesback/storm them now? Or yeah, just kill them cuz brooding can't protect them as good anymore?
+spamming infested terran and not getting damge done can now hurt zerg even.
While the Broodlords are important, they are not what makes the composition work. That's the infestor. If Broodlords become too weak, Zergs will just pair the Infestor with something else like Lurkers or Swarmhosts. Wouldn't that mean that tempest would become a viable counter, maybe even carriers?
I'm confused as to how not using Broodlords would make Tempests or Carriers better.
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On October 06 2019 02:18 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 13:01 seemsgood wrote:On October 05 2019 11:34 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 08:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On October 05 2019 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 07:49 Boggyb wrote:On October 05 2019 04:32 pissinmyhand wrote:
how about we just make it so mothership cant be pulled or neuraled Or better yet just delete Abduct and Neural Parasite. Deleting abduct would have... interesting effects on ZvZ. Also is there anyone that's against the idea of increasing the supply cost of infestors? Too big of a nerf - the proposed nerfs should be enough to make infestors reasonably strong. What nerfs? Ok I’ll concede in practice basically giving Infestors half the number of ITs who are individual 2x as strong is a functional nerf, in that opponents can kill them a bit easier. Giving Infestors neural by default is a buff, and a pretty big one IMO. They are still way too good at way too many different things and the synergy with Brood Lords is still entirely intact. A supply change is long overdue IMO. By all means make them potent, but to have 10+ or whatever negatively impacting the strength of your other army seems a no-brainer Despite many other disagreements, if there’s one general common thread across Protoss, Terran and even Zerg it’s that BL/Infestor is too strong, and just boring. These proposed patches do a lot of other things, some I find interesting but they don’t address that composition at all really. I think people are really underestimating the massive nerf a change to 3 supply would be. Without a globe of Infestors, Zerg is virtually helpless against Terran and Protoss late game compositions. Only being able to build 67% of the infestors for the same supply is devastating. Infestors below a critical mass cannot contend with Skytoss + massive splash + warp ins, or the insane efficiency and firepower of a 200/200 Terran. Infestors are the equalizer for Zerg late game, as the rest of their units do not compete. BLs and Ultras are not strong enough. Herein lies the problem since there is a very fine line between Zerg's late game being helpless vs overpowered and it's all really based on the capabilities of infestor. 3 supply infestor would massively shift that balanced towards the helpless end of the spectrum. Barring mass Infestors, Zerg AA simply does not hold up to maxed out capital ship-based armies. Hydras die to everything, Corruptors will get shredded by support units if they get into range of BCs/Carriers/Tempests, and vipers are too easy to kill/neutralize for them to be a reliable and cost effective AA On October 05 2019 12:19 BerserkSword wrote:
A 3 supply infestor is such a huge nerf that sky protoss and sky terran would have to be massively nerfed too. That sets everything out of whack, as Terran and Protoss ground units would need to be heavily changed to maintain balance. For example, if you heavily nerf the infestor and skytoss, then Zerg just wins by virtue of the fact that Protoss comps that are heavily ground based are straight up trash against zerg in the lategame. Protoss also heavily relies on skytoss for late game anti air. You significantly nerf skytoss and then you need to significantly buff Protoss ground to air capabilities and that screws with PvT.
There is literally no point in significantly nerfing an equalizer unit like the infestor. It just creates more balance problems than it solves. You saw what happened when the Protoss lategame backbone was heavily nerfed - you get a disaster of a PvZ where protoss desperately tries to end the game before Zerg lategame can kill maxed out armies several times over.
Zerg is designed around a powerful infestor. There's really nothing anyone can do about it at this point unless you want to redesign the game from scratch. Changing the supply to 3 is insane. It's like changing the battlecruiser's supply to 9...
how tho ? this unit only goes out of control when zerg players make over 20 infestors while still be able to harrass P/T naturals and that secures them a very healthy eco for another instant 20-25 units remax 20 infestors for 60 supply will definately hold thier ground no problem like the current one but zerg players must work harder in drone count and thier hit squads.Late game was never just about all out direct engagement I agree that infestors can be out of control. I'm not saying this unit should NOT be nerfed I'm saying that making them 3 supply is too drastic. Zerg needs a strong infestor to contend. I dont see why Blizzard doesnt look into buffing protoss lategame. I agree with wombat in that 2018 lategame pvz was very close to balanced, at least ocmpared to 2019 after carriers lost graviton catapult, tempests got nerfed, and feedback got nerfed.
3 supply is too drastic ? will it become a nail in da coffin ??? or you are just simply overthinking ?
welp....you gotta elaborate to us instead of saying it many times tho.3 supply infestor isnt a must, its just our suggestion in case the current proposed changes dont go well and there should be better options
while i find your opinion about 2018 skytoss is purely biased but nvm...buffing late game toss aint bad either,may be the balance team think its better to nerf every stuffs they ve done right now ?
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On October 06 2019 03:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 02:15 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 12:19 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 11:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 11:34 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 08:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On October 05 2019 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 07:49 Boggyb wrote:
[quote]
Or better yet just delete Abduct and Neural Parasite. Deleting abduct would have... interesting effects on ZvZ. Also is there anyone that's against the idea of increasing the supply cost of infestors? Too big of a nerf - the proposed nerfs should be enough to make infestors reasonably strong. What nerfs? Ok I’ll concede in practice basically giving Infestors half the number of ITs who are individual 2x as strong is a functional nerf, in that opponents can kill them a bit easier. Giving Infestors neural by default is a buff, and a pretty big one IMO. They are still way too good at way too many different things and the synergy with Brood Lords is still entirely intact. A supply change is long overdue IMO. By all means make them potent, but to have 10+ or whatever negatively impacting the strength of your other army seems a no-brainer Despite many other disagreements, if there’s one general common thread across Protoss, Terran and even Zerg it’s that BL/Infestor is too strong, and just boring. These proposed patches do a lot of other things, some I find interesting but they don’t address that composition at all really. I think people are really underestimating the massive nerf a change to 3 supply would be. Without a globe of Infestors, Zerg is virtually helpless against Terran and Protoss late game compositions. Only being able to build 67% of the infestors for the same supply is devastating. Infestors below a critical mass cannot contend with Skytoss + massive splash + warp ins, or the insane efficiency and firepower of a 200/200 Terran. Infestors are the equalizer for Zerg late game, as the rest of their units do not compete. BLs and Ultras are not strong enough. Herein lies the problem since there is a very fine line between Zerg's late game being helpless vs overpowered and it's all really based on the capabilities of infestor. 3 supply infestor would massively shift that balanced towards the helpless end of the spectrum. Barring mass Infestors, Zerg AA simply does not hold up to maxed out capital ship-based armies. Hydras die to everything, Corruptors will get shredded by support units if they get into range of BCs/Carriers/Tempests, and vipers are too easy to kill/neutralize for them to be a reliable and cost effective AA I think you underestimate how much people hate mass infestor. If increasing the supply cost makes mass infestor a thing of the past so much the better. Getting to nerf skytoss/skyterran armies afterwards for balance reasons sounds like a bonus to me. A 3 supply infestor is such a huge nerf that sky protoss and sky terran would have to be massively nerfed too. That sets everything out of whack, as Terran and Protoss ground units would need to be heavily changed to maintain balance. For example, if you heavily nerf the infestor and skytoss, then Zerg just wins by virtue of the fact that Protoss comps that are heavily ground based are straight up trash against zerg in the lategame. Protoss also heavily relies on skytoss for late game anti air. You significantly nerf skytoss and then you need to significantly buff Protoss ground to air capabilities and that screws with PvT. There is literally no point in significantly nerfing an equalizer unit like the infestor. It just creates more balance problems than it solves. You saw what happened when the Protoss lategame backbone was heavily nerfed - you get a disaster of a PvZ where protoss desperately tries to end the game before Zerg lategame can kill maxed out armies several times over. Zerg is designed around a powerful infestor. There's really nothing anyone can do about it at this point unless you want to redesign the game from scratch. Changing the supply to 3 is insane. It's like changing the battlecruiser's supply to 9... Which is fine? Late game Skytoss got nerfed til it largely sucked, even though IMO PvZ was in its best state ever, albeit still not perfect when Skytoss was good Zerg has other advantages in that matchup and can win by other means. Can make a few tweaks if not the case. Likewise Terran and mass BCs teleporting everywhere, which was cool for about 10 minutes for novelty’s sake and is just a bit silly. Blizz don’t have to make every composition competitively viable, I think their mistake is trying to do so. Most players and spectators don’t like big late game air balls, certainly don’t like BL/Infestor in its current state, and most think the Infestor is way too good, there’s few drawbacks in massing them etc. It feels like this patch is just a whole bunch of changes meant to rebalance the game while keeping those two factors largely intact, instead of toning those things down and rebalancing to give other options to compensate. Completely changing the game, essentially from scratch, will kill SC2, which is why I don't think it's fine. Despite the fact that I do think that ideally, heavy redesigns everywhere are ideal. The elephant in the room is that Protoss ground is severely outclassed in the lategame. Which is why Skytoss deathball has to be viable. Protoss ground simply doesnt scale well, has poverty AA capabilities, and gets eviscerated in the lategame. A 3 supply infestor would make lategame balance HEAVILY in favor of protoss (and Terran, but I'm one of the few who believe that terran lategame actually beats zerg lategame). To balance this skytoss would require further nerfs, essentially turning it from the garbage it is now to a pile of crap. Because of these nerfs Protoss ground to air capabilities would have to be buffed, and they'd probably turn the immortal into a mini thor, since buffing stalkers would make them broken - whatever the case protoss ground would become broken as they now are capable of handling air units. I can go on and on, but the point is that drastic changes in units lead to drastic metagame changes, and that is a death knell for an already dying game. It should not happen for a variety of reasons. If it’s for the better it will benefit the game, radical or not. HoTS Protoss ‘needed’ the mothership core to be viable at certain times. Instead of just accepting that, Blizzard removed it, gave Protoss shield batteries and the game improved. When Ravens were extremely strong and massable they got nerfed too. Sure you have to change a lot potentially, change a lot. fine by me personally. Blizzard want these mass air balls to be viable, Infestors must be strong so Zergs can deal with them. Why? Air balls are boring, they circumvent terrain and generally aren’t microable or interesting to watch. Tone down air balls across the board, give units a niche to fulfill by all means but not be so potent when masses.
mass air is fine.its all about mass air vs mass air...
well me saying this doesnt mean ground units should be allowed to destroy the whole sky army for free tho
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Some of the changes are kind of out there, but I like the weakening of end game air armies, ground units I feel like always create more dynamic and interactive play.
Stop with the upgrades though, this game is already so upgrade heavy.
Also replace Charge with Zealot speed like brood war, allow better Protoss players to differentiate themselves by having more control over their tier 1 bread and butter unit, much like great ling/marine control, I think it would be a good breath of fresh air. Would also allow more micro counterplay to banelings and widow mines.
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On October 06 2019 06:48 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 06:13 gulii wrote:
I'm the only one that thinks BL range decrease will make a difference?
I mean wouldn't it be easier now to EMP them or feesback/storm them now? Or yeah, just kill them cuz brooding can't protect them as good anymore?
+spamming infested terran and not getting damge done can now hurt zerg even.
While the Broodlords are important, they are not what makes the composition work. That's the infestor. If Broodlords become too weak, Zergs will just pair the Infestor with something else like Lurkers or Swarmhosts.
True!
I do though feel optimistic about the changes.
Even if it's kinda strange to buff the Infested Terran, after Rouge Trap game.
I guess we'll see.
Edit: + nerfing neural range must count for something?
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 06 2019 14:51 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Some of the changes are kind of out there, but I like the weakening of end game air armies, ground units I feel like always create more dynamic and interactive play.
Stop with the upgrades though, this game is already so upgrade heavy.
Also replace Charge with Zealot speed like brood war, allow better Protoss players to differentiate themselves by having more control over their tier 1 bread and butter unit, much like great ling/marine control, I think it would be a good breath of fresh air. Would also allow more micro counterplay to banelings and widow mines.
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And how do you suggest to counter play with speed zealots the marauders? Just saying THEY are the reason WHY the charge exists in the first place.
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On October 06 2019 00:41 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. PvZ on a ladder is sitting around 50 %. Do you know why? Because match making! That makes the ladder bellow high master 50 %. So, uh, Blizz has nothing out of ladder because their own system is placing the players together so both have equal chanca to win... 
That is not how ladder works. Yes, we do have individual MMR for each race (though random players don't even have that), but is still the same MMR for each matchup and each gamestate. So when PvZ lategame is protoss favoured in dia and lower, blizz can very clearly see that.
On October 05 2019 23:54 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. What late game Toss composition in PvZ is easy to control? Zerg lategame is extremely difficult to control to the level of a Dark or Serral too, I do agree that observers aren’t aware of that when they’re complaining. I don’t think there’s 100% consensus, most people concede that in the current state of the game that Zerg need really potent Infestors, but would prefer the game change to alter this in some way.
Well, most of them, as long as you don't mix in disruptors. I usually try to mix in carriers and mothership, because interceptors and invisibility really messes with auto targeting and my opponents even tend to set their detection forward in panic. Another gr8 thing about carriers is that when they get neuraled, the remaining units just insta kill their interceptors and leave them be, so I don't lose them and they don't cause havoc.
To add to that, I have some pretty gr8 options that are easy to control, even a few HTs are gr8 against clumpy compositions like Vikings, Corruptors, Hydras, voids and Marines, storms are easy to cast with HTs on 1 control group, storm's range and instant cast and the small hit boxes HT's have, plus when I fail to control them properly, they turn to archons quickly and then I just a-move them for buffer. Immortals are good for cleaning the ground if they have mostly air, like infestor, tank, cyclone, disruptor, plus they don't take air targeting priority. When they have a lot of corruptors or vikings, I add a few voids, they work gr8 when A-moved and when they r on same control group as carriers, they show up first so I can prismatic align them easily.
It sure is much easier than when I'm trying to juggle T or Z late game compositions :D .
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 06 2019 20:19 MrFreeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 00:41 deacon.frost wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. PvZ on a ladder is sitting around 50 %. Do you know why? Because match making! That makes the ladder bellow high master 50 %. So, uh, Blizz has nothing out of ladder because their own system is placing the players together so both have equal chanca to win... That is not how ladder works. Yes, we do have individual MMR for each race (though random players don't even have that), but is still the same MMR for each matchup and each gamestate. So when PvZ lategame is protoss favoured in dia and lower, blizz can very clearly see that. Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 23:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. What late game Toss composition in PvZ is easy to control? Zerg lategame is extremely difficult to control to the level of a Dark or Serral too, I do agree that observers aren’t aware of that when they’re complaining. I don’t think there’s 100% consensus, most people concede that in the current state of the game that Zerg need really potent Infestors, but would prefer the game change to alter this in some way. Well, most of them, as long as you don't mix in disruptors. I usually try to mix in carriers and mothership, because interceptors and invisibility really messes with auto targeting and my opponents even tend to set their detection forward in panic. Another gr8 thing about carriers is that when they get neuraled, the remaining units just insta kill their interceptors and leave them be, so I don't lose them and they don't cause havoc. To add to that, I have some pretty gr8 options that are easy to control, even a few HTs are gr8 against clumpy compositions like Vikings, Corruptors, Hydras, voids and Marines, storms are easy to cast with HTs on 1 control group, storm's range and instant cast and the small hit boxes HT's have, plus when I fail to control them properly, they turn to archons quickly and then I just a-move them for buffer. Immortals are good for cleaning the ground if they have mostly air, like infestor, tank, cyclone, disruptor, plus they don't take air targeting priority. When they have a lot of corruptors or vikings, I add a few voids, they work gr8 when A-moved and when they r on same control group as carriers, they show up first so I can prismatic align them easily. It sure is much easier than when I'm trying to juggle T or Z late game compositions :D .
You have a separate ladder MMR for Protoss, not PvZ. Thus you (as a P player) play against Z/R/T/P with similar MMR. In a big enough numbers it will result in 50/50 PvZ on ladder bellow masters because you will play some ZvP masters and some ZvP losers. Because despite what people think(ZvP broken, Zerg OP) it doesn't hit until you're high enough so there will be some Zerg losers who will tank the ZvP w/r You can't go much out of the way. And on the top of that you have unranked players messing things even more up(and offracing players). Ladder can't show anything and will show 50/50, it's built this way to show this, the only exception is the top where people play each other all the time and we're out of the big sample 
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On October 06 2019 20:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 20:19 MrFreeman wrote:On October 06 2019 00:41 deacon.frost wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. PvZ on a ladder is sitting around 50 %. Do you know why? Because match making! That makes the ladder bellow high master 50 %. So, uh, Blizz has nothing out of ladder because their own system is placing the players together so both have equal chanca to win... That is not how ladder works. Yes, we do have individual MMR for each race (though random players don't even have that), but is still the same MMR for each matchup and each gamestate. So when PvZ lategame is protoss favoured in dia and lower, blizz can very clearly see that. On October 05 2019 23:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. What late game Toss composition in PvZ is easy to control? Zerg lategame is extremely difficult to control to the level of a Dark or Serral too, I do agree that observers aren’t aware of that when they’re complaining. I don’t think there’s 100% consensus, most people concede that in the current state of the game that Zerg need really potent Infestors, but would prefer the game change to alter this in some way. Well, most of them, as long as you don't mix in disruptors. I usually try to mix in carriers and mothership, because interceptors and invisibility really messes with auto targeting and my opponents even tend to set their detection forward in panic. Another gr8 thing about carriers is that when they get neuraled, the remaining units just insta kill their interceptors and leave them be, so I don't lose them and they don't cause havoc. To add to that, I have some pretty gr8 options that are easy to control, even a few HTs are gr8 against clumpy compositions like Vikings, Corruptors, Hydras, voids and Marines, storms are easy to cast with HTs on 1 control group, storm's range and instant cast and the small hit boxes HT's have, plus when I fail to control them properly, they turn to archons quickly and then I just a-move them for buffer. Immortals are good for cleaning the ground if they have mostly air, like infestor, tank, cyclone, disruptor, plus they don't take air targeting priority. When they have a lot of corruptors or vikings, I add a few voids, they work gr8 when A-moved and when they r on same control group as carriers, they show up first so I can prismatic align them easily. It sure is much easier than when I'm trying to juggle T or Z late game compositions :D . You have a separate ladder MMR for Protoss, not PvZ. Thus you (as a P player) play against Z/R/T/P with similar MMR. In a big enough numbers it will result in 50/50 PvZ on ladder bellow masters because you will play some ZvP masters and some ZvP losers. Because despite what people think(ZvP broken, Zerg OP) it doesn't hit until you're high enough so there will be some Zerg losers who will tank the ZvP w/r You can't go much out of the way. And on the top of that you have unranked players messing things even more up(and offracing players). Ladder can't show anything and will show 50/50, it's built this way to show this, the only exception is the top where people play each other all the time and we're out of the big sample
Your overall w/l rate is 50/50, if PvZ is one sided, that percentage will be lower for the weaker race and higher for the other matchups. If lategame of one of the races in PvZ is favoured, again, the percentage of wins in longer games against that race, something blizz can easily view, will be out of balance as well.
This is not even lack of understanding of statistics, since these numbers are in your profile and in your opponents profiles. All you have to do is look and see that even for people with thousands of games, the numbers are far from 50/50 for all matchups. The advantage that blizz has is the ability to take all the players and filter through them as they see fit.
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On October 06 2019 20:19 MrFreeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 00:41 deacon.frost wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. PvZ on a ladder is sitting around 50 %. Do you know why? Because match making! That makes the ladder bellow high master 50 %. So, uh, Blizz has nothing out of ladder because their own system is placing the players together so both have equal chanca to win... That is not how ladder works. Yes, we do have individual MMR for each race (though random players don't even have that), but is still the same MMR for each matchup and each gamestate. So when PvZ lategame is protoss favoured in dia and lower, blizz can very clearly see that. Show nested quote +On October 05 2019 23:54 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 23:24 MrFreeman wrote:
Some ppl should really try to play all races, nerfing something to the ground just because it makes you lose sometimes is not a great idea. Infestor is essential when Z has to deal with big unit centric army. It can be certainly beaten by terran, it can be beaten by toss on lower lvls, so logical fix high level balance should be a new protos high tech micro intensive unit.
Late game toss is pretty easy to control in battle and I have pretty high win rate against late game zerg armies, while with Z, I often lose, cos I misread the P army and my composition is out of balance or because I just mess up the micro. Blizz has the low lvl data, they know the exact win rate of PvZ late game in dia and lower and I'm pretty sure it is P favored, they can't just nerf Z and call it good, because pros are balanced.
Z have Viper and Infestor, units that are both super strong and nobody below 5k MMR can use them at the same time. And not even semi-pro can add BL positioning, queen support, creep re-spread, static D repositioning and corruptor zoning to that. Toss needs something that is as difficult as that. It will even make for a great watching experience. What late game Toss composition in PvZ is easy to control? Zerg lategame is extremely difficult to control to the level of a Dark or Serral too, I do agree that observers aren’t aware of that when they’re complaining. I don’t think there’s 100% consensus, most people concede that in the current state of the game that Zerg need really potent Infestors, but would prefer the game change to alter this in some way. Well, most of them, as long as you don't mix in disruptors. I usually try to mix in carriers and mothership, because interceptors and invisibility really messes with auto targeting and my opponents even tend to set their detection forward in panic. Another gr8 thing about carriers is that when they get neuraled, the remaining units just insta kill their interceptors and leave them be, so I don't lose them and they don't cause havoc. To add to that, I have some pretty gr8 options that are easy to control, even a few HTs are gr8 against clumpy compositions like Vikings, Corruptors, Hydras, voids and Marines, storms are easy to cast with HTs on 1 control group, storm's range and instant cast and the small hit boxes HT's have, plus when I fail to control them properly, they turn to archons quickly and then I just a-move them for buffer. Immortals are good for cleaning the ground if they have mostly air, like infestor, tank, cyclone, disruptor, plus they don't take air targeting priority. When they have a lot of corruptors or vikings, I add a few voids, they work gr8 when A-moved and when they r on same control group as carriers, they show up first so I can prismatic align them easily. It sure is much easier than when I'm trying to juggle T or Z late game compositions :D .
Gr8
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Can anybody tell me why does Zergs need Infested terrans? And if their supposed role is to beef Zerg anti air against late game airballs, why can't they make the unit to only be able to shoot only air units? That way they would still fullfill their role as anti air, but wouldnt be massable/spammable to massacre entire bases or late game ground armies. I'm a zerg fan, so i'm not trying to hate on zergs, i just can't get my head wrapped around this.
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On October 06 2019 03:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2019 02:15 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 12:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 12:19 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 11:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 11:34 BerserkSword wrote:On October 05 2019 08:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 05 2019 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On October 05 2019 08:18 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 05 2019 07:49 Boggyb wrote:
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Or better yet just delete Abduct and Neural Parasite. Deleting abduct would have... interesting effects on ZvZ. Also is there anyone that's against the idea of increasing the supply cost of infestors? Too big of a nerf - the proposed nerfs should be enough to make infestors reasonably strong. What nerfs? Ok I’ll concede in practice basically giving Infestors half the number of ITs who are individual 2x as strong is a functional nerf, in that opponents can kill them a bit easier. Giving Infestors neural by default is a buff, and a pretty big one IMO. They are still way too good at way too many different things and the synergy with Brood Lords is still entirely intact. A supply change is long overdue IMO. By all means make them potent, but to have 10+ or whatever negatively impacting the strength of your other army seems a no-brainer Despite many other disagreements, if there’s one general common thread across Protoss, Terran and even Zerg it’s that BL/Infestor is too strong, and just boring. These proposed patches do a lot of other things, some I find interesting but they don’t address that composition at all really. I think people are really underestimating the massive nerf a change to 3 supply would be. Without a globe of Infestors, Zerg is virtually helpless against Terran and Protoss late game compositions. Only being able to build 67% of the infestors for the same supply is devastating. Infestors below a critical mass cannot contend with Skytoss + massive splash + warp ins, or the insane efficiency and firepower of a 200/200 Terran. Infestors are the equalizer for Zerg late game, as the rest of their units do not compete. BLs and Ultras are not strong enough. Herein lies the problem since there is a very fine line between Zerg's late game being helpless vs overpowered and it's all really based on the capabilities of infestor. 3 supply infestor would massively shift that balanced towards the helpless end of the spectrum. Barring mass Infestors, Zerg AA simply does not hold up to maxed out capital ship-based armies. Hydras die to everything, Corruptors will get shredded by support units if they get into range of BCs/Carriers/Tempests, and vipers are too easy to kill/neutralize for them to be a reliable and cost effective AA I think you underestimate how much people hate mass infestor. If increasing the supply cost makes mass infestor a thing of the past so much the better. Getting to nerf skytoss/skyterran armies afterwards for balance reasons sounds like a bonus to me. A 3 supply infestor is such a huge nerf that sky protoss and sky terran would have to be massively nerfed too. That sets everything out of whack, as Terran and Protoss ground units would need to be heavily changed to maintain balance. For example, if you heavily nerf the infestor and skytoss, then Zerg just wins by virtue of the fact that Protoss comps that are heavily ground based are straight up trash against zerg in the lategame. Protoss also heavily relies on skytoss for late game anti air. You significantly nerf skytoss and then you need to significantly buff Protoss ground to air capabilities and that screws with PvT. There is literally no point in significantly nerfing an equalizer unit like the infestor. It just creates more balance problems than it solves. You saw what happened when the Protoss lategame backbone was heavily nerfed - you get a disaster of a PvZ where protoss desperately tries to end the game before Zerg lategame can kill maxed out armies several times over. Zerg is designed around a powerful infestor. There's really nothing anyone can do about it at this point unless you want to redesign the game from scratch. Changing the supply to 3 is insane. It's like changing the battlecruiser's supply to 9... Which is fine? Late game Skytoss got nerfed til it largely sucked, even though IMO PvZ was in its best state ever, albeit still not perfect when Skytoss was good Zerg has other advantages in that matchup and can win by other means. Can make a few tweaks if not the case. Likewise Terran and mass BCs teleporting everywhere, which was cool for about 10 minutes for novelty’s sake and is just a bit silly. Blizz don’t have to make every composition competitively viable, I think their mistake is trying to do so. Most players and spectators don’t like big late game air balls, certainly don’t like BL/Infestor in its current state, and most think the Infestor is way too good, there’s few drawbacks in massing them etc. It feels like this patch is just a whole bunch of changes meant to rebalance the game while keeping those two factors largely intact, instead of toning those things down and rebalancing to give other options to compensate. Completely changing the game, essentially from scratch, will kill SC2, which is why I don't think it's fine. Despite the fact that I do think that ideally, heavy redesigns everywhere are ideal. The elephant in the room is that Protoss ground is severely outclassed in the lategame. Which is why Skytoss deathball has to be viable. Protoss ground simply doesnt scale well, has poverty AA capabilities, and gets eviscerated in the lategame. A 3 supply infestor would make lategame balance HEAVILY in favor of protoss (and Terran, but I'm one of the few who believe that terran lategame actually beats zerg lategame). To balance this skytoss would require further nerfs, essentially turning it from the garbage it is now to a pile of crap. Because of these nerfs Protoss ground to air capabilities would have to be buffed, and they'd probably turn the immortal into a mini thor, since buffing stalkers would make them broken - whatever the case protoss ground would become broken as they now are capable of handling air units. I can go on and on, but the point is that drastic changes in units lead to drastic metagame changes, and that is a death knell for an already dying game. It should not happen for a variety of reasons. If it’s for the better it will benefit the game, radical or not. HoTS Protoss ‘needed’ the mothership core to be viable at certain times. Instead of just accepting that, Blizzard removed it, gave Protoss shield batteries and the game improved. When Ravens were extremely strong and massable they got nerfed too. Sure you have to change a lot potentially, change a lot. fine by me personally. Blizzard want these mass air balls to be viable, Infestors must be strong so Zergs can deal with them. Why? Air balls are boring, they circumvent terrain and generally aren’t microable or interesting to watch. Tone down air balls across the board, give units a niche to fulfill by all means but not be so potent when masses.
The game is nowhere near as popular as it was during HoTS. At the end of HoTS, a complete new expansion was imminent. Right now, LoTV is the last of the trilogy and SC2 is struggling to stay afloat.
Whether or not the game improved from HoTS is debatable , as well. I, for one, do not think it has.
The difference between the Raven and the Infestor is that Terran does not need a powerful raven to contend in the lategame. Zerg needs a powerful infestor to contend.
I am not saying Infestors should not be toned down. 3 supply is insane though. It's like instead of nerfing BC's TJ, they just make BCs 9 supply.
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EPT
