EPTThey absolutely need to do more for Protoss. Protoss is already not performing all that well in tournaments. I'm sure cannon rush into Flux Vanes void rays will be a great build on ladder in some MMR region. But on the pro level, with the charge nerf Protoss loses some of its last remaining power. And that's not even considering the state of PvP, where every game is either players 1-basing for up to 15 minutes or playing a macro game where both use the exact same composition every time.
Blizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…
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Elentos
55553 Posts
They absolutely need to do more for Protoss. Protoss is already not performing all that well in tournaments. I'm sure cannon rush into Flux Vanes void rays will be a great build on ladder in some MMR region. But on the pro level, with the charge nerf Protoss loses some of its last remaining power. And that's not even considering the state of PvP, where every game is either players 1-basing for up to 15 minutes or playing a macro game where both use the exact same composition every time. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19257 Posts
1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states) 2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units Take a page from campaign: * Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields. * Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance. * Decrease recall time slightly This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote: After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine. 1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states) 2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units Take a page from campaign: * Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields. * Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance. * Decrease recall time slightly This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage. Please no. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2984 Posts
And see how that plays out in testing. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19257 Posts
So constructive, thanks for the post... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote: After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine. 1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states) 2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units Take a page from campaign: * Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields. * Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance. * Decrease recall time slightly This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage. I would nerf warpgate production cycles considerably, buff gateways a bunch in terms of production output. Maybe change chrono a little so it’s akin to an inject cycle. It’s a real bugbear of mine not that warp gate exists at all, but that it’s so much better than regular gateways. It’d be nice to have a trade off, pure macro output vs the mobility and reinforcement options of warpgate. Chrono thing is I just enjoy macro cycles and the Protoss one feels a bit, meh to execute. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25613 Posts
I like the feel of macroing Terran and Zerg in SC2 too. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19257 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:45 Wombat_NI wrote: I would nerf warpgate production cycles considerably, buff gateways a bunch in terms of production output. Maybe change chrono a little so it’s akin to an inject cycle. It’s a real bugbear of mine not that warp gate exists at all, but that it’s so much better than regular gateways. It’d be nice to have a trade off, pure macro output vs the mobility and reinforcement options of warpgate. Chrono thing is I just enjoy macro cycles and the Protoss one feels a bit, meh to execute. 100% agree. The design around warpgates and gateways bothers me in the same way. I would love for their to be a critical decision or tradeoff between the two building styles. The fact that Blizzard auto converts your gateways into warpgates is a clear sign that gateways are never necessary past that upgrade. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2984 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote: After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine. 1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states) 2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units Take a page from campaign: * Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields. * Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance. * Decrease recall time slightly This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage. I think it becomes awkward when some units can use warpgate and some can't, resulting in some gateways and some warpgates. i never liked warp gate but it was the huge mechanic introduced to sc2, so it'd be hard to imagine blizz's removing it in favor of BW-esque production. I prefer the dragoon to the stalker, in general--as an idea--but I feel like once you go down that road you end up wanting to make sc2 more like BW across the board, which is something i feel blizzard doesn't want, for good reason. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On October 08 2019 03:01 BisuDagger wrote: 100% agree. The design around warpgates and gateways bothers me in the same way. I would love for their to be a critical decision or tradeoff between the two building styles. The fact that Blizzard auto converts your gateways into warpgates is a clear sign that gateways are never necessary past that upgrade. I make a point to make a post to that effect at least once a year! I also think there would be potential to diversify Protoss players even more via their use of gateways/warp gates too which would be cool. In truth I’m not at all suited for the ballsy, risk-taking swagger that Protoss requires, more of a mechanical robot, but godamnit I’ve played Protoss for the coolness factor since I was 7 years old  Would be cool if there could be a Protoss equivalent of Innovation parade pushing or something | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia238 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote: After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine. 1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states) 2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units Take a page from campaign: * Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields. * Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance. * Decrease recall time slightly This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage. make warpgated units warp in without shields and mana (it uses it to "warp of location" bla bla bla") problems solved!!! | ||
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Slydie
1923 Posts
On October 08 2019 03:13 dankobanana wrote: make warpgated units warp in without shields and mana (it uses it to "warp of location" bla bla bla") problems solved!!! That does not sound like clean game design. Pretty frustrating to play, hard to balance and probably making warpgates useless. The old issue is that the DPS of gateway units has to be so low to balance the presence of forcefield and warpgate. It is far too late to change now, though, and I am ok with Protos being the time/space manipulating race. I think the issues of warpgates are compensated by the intriguing midgame tech options. | ||
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fds
Slovenia258 Posts
Fungal growth Fungal growth no longer does damage over time.It only slows units. Change mana cost to 50 and allow infestors to cast this spell burrowed. Infested terrans Add 1 second cooldown on infested terran to prevent abuse of rapid fire. Adepts New upgrade would make shade invisible. You would need stealth detection to see where adepts are shading. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:44 BisuDagger wrote: So constructive, thanks for the post... You want something constructive? This is not bw, go for bw to bw. Let's start with the obvious. (edit> this is not me hating on you for this, this is a very different game with different units and you won't get the BW in this) Also, this would result in 4 pruduction buildings on 4 different hotkeys unless Blizzard in their infinite wisdom goes for warpgate + gateway can be on a same hotkey and units will be prioritized(same as barracks). I don't think this will work properly(considering you can build all those units from gateways). Current Protoss gateway design resulted in some big nerfs in the units - your buffs are not enough to operate around this if we're thinking about late game - e.g. anti-air of stalkers is weak because they can be warped any time you need them and anywhere, buffing them results in really heavy hitting combo with colossi. Leaving them be means they will still be laughed at by speed banshees. Without the warp in mechanic you won't get what you saw in the Parting v TY game because without the warp in the units have to walk from the main(not even from the 4th, from the main). The last time they made Stalkers more dragoon like(same DPS, bigger CD on shots, bigger shot damage), they reverted it back quite fast because TvP got fucked up with proxy stalkers. Why do you think this time it won't be reverted right away? Also there's a reason why stalkers are not massed in the lategame, they're trash against everything and a slight buff of HP won't change this, they're trash because they're at best mediocre at dps and their model is so big they have bad scaling(you need a huge arch). It gets better with blink but not much. Also they're quite easy to hardcounter with EMP. (even with the HP buff) And now the fun part. Marauders? Tanks with smartfire? This is not BW, if you want gateway compositions, we had that before. It was named archon/chargelot/templar. Now you can't go this because 1) Mines 2) Hellbats(if we talk about mech) 3) Liberators(and you need tempests if the game goes to this stage, this alone should tell you how garbage stalker is) And we're at just the TvP. Now to the ZvP. Lurkers? Mutalisks? Fungals? Edit> TL, DR - we need much more changes in all 3 races to make this viable, not just Protoss. It is a big game redesign. | ||
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Filo224
2 Posts
would be nice to see some new units from time to time to freshen the meta, like 2/race/year would be nice cuz most of terran units are pretty wacky and not supporting diversity for them | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On October 08 2019 05:29 deacon.frost wrote: You want something constructive? This is not bw, go for bw to bw. Let's start with the obvious. (edit> this is not me hating on you for this, this is a very different game with different units and you won't get the BW in this) Also, this would result in 4 pruduction buildings on 4 different hotkeys unless Blizzard in their infinite wisdom goes for warpgate + gateway can be on a same hotkey and units will be prioritized(same as barracks). I don't think this will work properly(considering you can build all those units from gateways). Current Protoss gateway design resulted in some big nerfs in the units - your buffs are not enough to operate around this if we're thinking about late game - e.g. anti-air of stalkers is weak because they can be warped any time you need them and anywhere, buffing them results in really heavy hitting combo with colossi. Leaving them be means they will still be laughed at by speed banshees. Without the warp in mechanic you won't get what you saw in the Parting v TY game because without the warp in the units have to walk from the main(not even from the 4th, from the main). The last time they made Stalkers more dragoon like(same DPS, bigger CD on shots, bigger shot damage), they reverted it back quite fast because TvP got fucked up with proxy stalkers. Why do you think this time it won't be reverted right away? Also there's a reason why stalkers are not massed in the lategame, they're trash against everything and a slight buff of HP won't change this, they're trash because they're at best mediocre at dps and their model is so big they have bad scaling(you need a huge arch). It gets better with blink but not much. Also they're quite easy to hardcounter with EMP. (even with the HP buff) And now the fun part. Marauders? Tanks with smartfire? This is not BW, if you want gateway compositions, we had that before. It was named archon/chargelot/templar. Now you can't go this because 1) Mines 2) Hellbats(if we talk about mech) 3) Liberators(and you need tempests if the game goes to this stage, this alone should tell you how garbage stalker is) And we're at just the TvP. Now to the ZvP. Lurkers? Mutalisks? Fungals? Edit> TL, DR - we need much more changes in all 3 races to make this viable, not just Protoss. It is a big game redesign. i know uncle blizz doesnt want to admit this but because of the warp in mechanic,protoss cant have strong gateway units while still being able to instantly warp them.putting thier power spike behind an upgrade looks bandaid and confusing at first but i am sure protoss players will thank the balance team later for not straight up trashing them so yeah i d think protoss can have strong stalkers just like last year | ||
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RandomPlayer416
84 Posts
The problems with this game are not going to be fixed by requiring upgrades as a form of nerfing units, Game design problems have existed for so long and were just never addressed. Late game death ball armies, or units that produce units for free are the problem. | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
The irrational side of me has a deep-seated hatred of infestors dating back to 2012 and wants to see the unit removed entirely from the game. Make Zergs rely more on mutas and lurkers, which are more interesting and balanced units anyways | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
On October 08 2019 05:11 fds wrote: I would like to propose following ideas: Fungal growth Fungal growth no longer does damage over time.It only slows units. Change mana cost to 50 and allow infestors to cast this spell burrowed. Infested terrans Add 1 second cooldown on infested terran to prevent abuse of rapid fire. Adepts New upgrade would make shade invisible. You would need stealth detection to see where adepts are shading. All three actually sound pretty cool! These are the kinds of ideas I wanna see from Blizz. Honestly, I think the proposed changes from Blizz are not good overall. I really like the Nydus change and lower brood lord range but that's about it. Infestors starting with Neural is pure madness. That's still a kind of spell I would completely remove from the game. It can turn the tide nearly as fast as the old motherships' vortex ... and that one is gone for good. | ||
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gulii
Sweden2791 Posts
I guess with my mmr this is good changes but I want to watch good finals again. I don't care about balance in diamond. I want the pros to be able to play good games. | ||
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