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Blizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…

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Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55553 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 14:55:54
October 07 2019 14:54 GMT
#221
I think the Terran changes are the most interesting and hope they make it through (that said Blizzard's reasoning for the BC changes and neural parasite changes is months behind the pro meta). They could have done more for Zerg (e. g. reduce overlap between the role of the viper and the infestor).

They absolutely need to do more for Protoss. Protoss is already not performing all that well in tournaments. I'm sure cannon rush into Flux Vanes void rays will be a great build on ladder in some MMR region. But on the pro level, with the charge nerf Protoss loses some of its last remaining power. And that's not even considering the state of PvP, where every game is either players 1-basing for up to 15 minutes or playing a macro game where both use the exact same composition every time.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19263 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 17:08:13
October 07 2019 17:08 GMT
#222
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 07 2019 17:28 GMT
#223
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

Please no.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
3008 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 17:44:18
October 07 2019 17:43 GMT
#224
After watching IN DEPTH this week, I would love if Blizzard just looked at all the units in the game that use and rely on energy, consider re-working them entirely, and perhaps buff other units in the race's arsenal to compensate.

And see how that plays out in testing.

BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19263 Posts
October 07 2019 17:44 GMT
#225
On October 08 2019 02:28 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

Please no.

So constructive, thanks for the post...
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25689 Posts
October 07 2019 17:45 GMT
#226
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

I would nerf warpgate production cycles considerably, buff gateways a bunch in terms of production output. Maybe change chrono a little so it’s akin to an inject cycle.

It’s a real bugbear of mine not that warp gate exists at all, but that it’s so much better than regular gateways.

It’d be nice to have a trade off, pure macro output vs the mobility and reinforcement options of warpgate.

Chrono thing is I just enjoy macro cycles and the Protoss one feels a bit, meh to execute.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25689 Posts
October 07 2019 17:47 GMT
#227
And yes I’m biased to my tastes, but godamnit it’s satisfying to macro at even my incompetent level in BW, clicking all dem gates.

I like the feel of macroing Terran and Zerg in SC2 too.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19263 Posts
October 07 2019 18:01 GMT
#228
On October 08 2019 02:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

I would nerf warpgate production cycles considerably, buff gateways a bunch in terms of production output. Maybe change chrono a little so it’s akin to an inject cycle.

It’s a real bugbear of mine not that warp gate exists at all, but that it’s so much better than regular gateways.

It’d be nice to have a trade off, pure macro output vs the mobility and reinforcement options of warpgate.

Chrono thing is I just enjoy macro cycles and the Protoss one feels a bit, meh to execute.

100% agree. The design around warpgates and gateways bothers me in the same way. I would love for their to be a critical decision or tradeoff between the two building styles. The fact that Blizzard auto converts your gateways into warpgates is a clear sign that gateways are never necessary past that upgrade.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
3008 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 18:04:14
October 07 2019 18:03 GMT
#229
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.



I think it becomes awkward when some units can use warpgate and some can't, resulting in some gateways and some warpgates. i never liked warp gate but it was the huge mechanic introduced to sc2, so it'd be hard to imagine blizz's removing it in favor of BW-esque production.

I prefer the dragoon to the stalker, in general--as an idea--but I feel like once you go down that road you end up wanting to make sc2 more like BW across the board, which is something i feel blizzard doesn't want, for good reason.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25689 Posts
October 07 2019 18:06 GMT
#230
On October 08 2019 03:01 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:45 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

I would nerf warpgate production cycles considerably, buff gateways a bunch in terms of production output. Maybe change chrono a little so it’s akin to an inject cycle.

It’s a real bugbear of mine not that warp gate exists at all, but that it’s so much better than regular gateways.

It’d be nice to have a trade off, pure macro output vs the mobility and reinforcement options of warpgate.

Chrono thing is I just enjoy macro cycles and the Protoss one feels a bit, meh to execute.

100% agree. The design around warpgates and gateways bothers me in the same way. I would love for their to be a critical decision or tradeoff between the two building styles. The fact that Blizzard auto converts your gateways into warpgates is a clear sign that gateways are never necessary past that upgrade.

I make a point to make a post to that effect at least once a year!

I also think there would be potential to diversify Protoss players even more via their use of gateways/warp gates too which would be cool.

In truth I’m not at all suited for the ballsy, risk-taking swagger that Protoss requires, more of a mechanical robot, but godamnit I’ve played Protoss for the coolness factor since I was 7 years old

Would be cool if there could be a Protoss equivalent of Innovation parade pushing or something
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
dankobanana
Profile Joined February 2016
Croatia238 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 18:14:26
October 07 2019 18:13 GMT
#231
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.


make warpgated units warp in without shields and mana (it uses it to "warp of location" bla bla bla")

problems solved!!!
Battle is waged in the name of the many. The brave, who generation after generation choose the mantle of - Dark Templar!
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1923 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 18:31:14
October 07 2019 18:30 GMT
#232
On October 08 2019 03:13 dankobanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.


make warpgated units warp in without shields and mana (it uses it to "warp of location" bla bla bla")

problems solved!!!


That does not sound like clean game design. Pretty frustrating to play, hard to balance and probably making warpgates useless.

The old issue is that the DPS of gateway units has to be so low to balance the presence of forcefield and warpgate. It is far too late to change now, though, and I am ok with Protos being the time/space manipulating race.

I think the issues of warpgates are compensated by the intriguing midgame tech options.
Buff the siegetank
fds
Profile Joined February 2011
Slovenia258 Posts
October 07 2019 20:11 GMT
#233
I would like to propose following ideas:

Fungal growth
Fungal growth no longer does damage over time.It only slows units. Change mana cost to 50 and allow infestors to cast this spell burrowed.

Infested terrans
Add 1 second cooldown on infested terran to prevent abuse of rapid fire.

Adepts
New upgrade would make shade invisible. You would need stealth detection to see where adepts are shading.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 20:36:47
October 07 2019 20:29 GMT
#234
On October 08 2019 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:28 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

Please no.

So constructive, thanks for the post...

You want something constructive?

This is not bw, go for bw to bw. Let's start with the obvious. (edit> this is not me hating on you for this, this is a very different game with different units and you won't get the BW in this)

Also, this would result in 4 pruduction buildings on 4 different hotkeys unless Blizzard in their infinite wisdom goes for warpgate + gateway can be on a same hotkey and units will be prioritized(same as barracks). I don't think this will work properly(considering you can build all those units from gateways).
Current Protoss gateway design resulted in some big nerfs in the units - your buffs are not enough to operate around this if we're thinking about late game - e.g. anti-air of stalkers is weak because they can be warped any time you need them and anywhere, buffing them results in really heavy hitting combo with colossi. Leaving them be means they will still be laughed at by speed banshees.

Without the warp in mechanic you won't get what you saw in the Parting v TY game because without the warp in the units have to walk from the main(not even from the 4th, from the main). The last time they made Stalkers more dragoon like(same DPS, bigger CD on shots, bigger shot damage), they reverted it back quite fast because TvP got fucked up with proxy stalkers. Why do you think this time it won't be reverted right away? Also there's a reason why stalkers are not massed in the lategame, they're trash against everything and a slight buff of HP won't change this, they're trash because they're at best mediocre at dps and their model is so big they have bad scaling(you need a huge arch). It gets better with blink but not much.

Also they're quite easy to hardcounter with EMP. (even with the HP buff)

And now the fun part. Marauders? Tanks with smartfire?

This is not BW, if you want gateway compositions, we had that before. It was named archon/chargelot/templar. Now you can't go this because
1) Mines
2) Hellbats(if we talk about mech)
3) Liberators(and you need tempests if the game goes to this stage, this alone should tell you how garbage stalker is)

And we're at just the TvP.

Now to the ZvP.
Lurkers? Mutalisks? Fungals?

Edit> TL, DR - we need much more changes in all 3 races to make this viable, not just Protoss. It is a big game redesign.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Filo224
Profile Joined April 2018
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 22:07:48
October 07 2019 22:06 GMT
#235
most of it pretty bad and mostly hitting on the Terran and their endgame is already pretty bad and saying it as a Protoss player. Late game protoss and zerg can trade so efficiently against terran thats its crazy like back in the day seeker missiles almost..

would be nice to see some new units from time to time to freshen the meta, like 2/race/year would be nice cuz most of terran units are pretty wacky and not supporting diversity for them
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
October 07 2019 22:58 GMT
#236
On October 08 2019 05:29 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2019 02:44 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 08 2019 02:28 deacon.frost wrote:
On October 08 2019 02:08 BisuDagger wrote:
After watching Parting vs Ty and being such a huge BW fan I've been thinking about how to prop up Gateway-centric play with a big change to how gateways work. I would love to hear what ideas anyone might have. Here's one of mine.

1. Only zealot, sentry, adepts can utilize warpgates (still available in all gateway states)
2. You must use normal gateways to build all other gateway units

Take a page from campaign:
* Buff health of stalkers to make them more like dragoons or make it so blink will replenish a portion of their shields.
* Templar Amulate upgrade returns. Starting with storm available would clearly be weakened by travel distance.
* Decrease recall time slightly

This maintains the early aggression and harassment options throughout the game and strengthens the core of the gateway army while giving it a spawn disadvantage.

Please no.

So constructive, thanks for the post...

You want something constructive?

This is not bw, go for bw to bw. Let's start with the obvious. (edit> this is not me hating on you for this, this is a very different game with different units and you won't get the BW in this)

Also, this would result in 4 pruduction buildings on 4 different hotkeys unless Blizzard in their infinite wisdom goes for warpgate + gateway can be on a same hotkey and units will be prioritized(same as barracks). I don't think this will work properly(considering you can build all those units from gateways).
Current Protoss gateway design resulted in some big nerfs in the units - your buffs are not enough to operate around this if we're thinking about late game - e.g. anti-air of stalkers is weak because they can be warped any time you need them and anywhere, buffing them results in really heavy hitting combo with colossi. Leaving them be means they will still be laughed at by speed banshees.

Without the warp in mechanic you won't get what you saw in the Parting v TY game because without the warp in the units have to walk from the main(not even from the 4th, from the main). The last time they made Stalkers more dragoon like(same DPS, bigger CD on shots, bigger shot damage), they reverted it back quite fast because TvP got fucked up with proxy stalkers. Why do you think this time it won't be reverted right away? Also there's a reason why stalkers are not massed in the lategame, they're trash against everything and a slight buff of HP won't change this, they're trash because they're at best mediocre at dps and their model is so big they have bad scaling(you need a huge arch). It gets better with blink but not much.

Also they're quite easy to hardcounter with EMP. (even with the HP buff)

And now the fun part. Marauders? Tanks with smartfire?

This is not BW, if you want gateway compositions, we had that before. It was named archon/chargelot/templar. Now you can't go this because
1) Mines
2) Hellbats(if we talk about mech)
3) Liberators(and you need tempests if the game goes to this stage, this alone should tell you how garbage stalker is)

And we're at just the TvP.

Now to the ZvP.
Lurkers? Mutalisks? Fungals?

Edit> TL, DR - we need much more changes in all 3 races to make this viable, not just Protoss. It is a big game redesign.

i know uncle blizz doesnt want to admit this but because of the warp in mechanic,protoss cant have strong gateway units while still being able to instantly warp them.putting thier power spike behind an upgrade looks bandaid and confusing at first but i am sure protoss players will thank the balance team later for not straight up trashing them
so yeah i d think protoss can have strong stalkers just like last year
RandomPlayer416
Profile Joined January 2019
84 Posts
October 08 2019 04:14 GMT
#237
I find so many of these changes are incredibly late.

The problems with this game are not going to be fixed by requiring upgrades as a form of nerfing units, Game design problems have existed for so long and were just never addressed. Late game death ball armies, or units that produce units for free are the problem.
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
October 08 2019 04:40 GMT
#238
The rational side of me is curious to see how the meta evolves around these new changes - could be interesting.

The irrational side of me has a deep-seated hatred of infestors dating back to 2012 and wants to see the unit removed entirely from the game. Make Zergs rely more on mutas and lurkers, which are more interesting and balanced units anyways
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Bahajinbo
Profile Joined May 2012
Germany488 Posts
October 08 2019 08:44 GMT
#239
On October 08 2019 05:11 fds wrote:
I would like to propose following ideas:

Fungal growth
Fungal growth no longer does damage over time.It only slows units. Change mana cost to 50 and allow infestors to cast this spell burrowed.

Infested terrans
Add 1 second cooldown on infested terran to prevent abuse of rapid fire.

Adepts
New upgrade would make shade invisible. You would need stealth detection to see where adepts are shading.

All three actually sound pretty cool! These are the kinds of ideas I wanna see from Blizz.

Honestly, I think the proposed changes from Blizz are not good overall. I really like the Nydus change and lower brood lord range but that's about it. Infestors starting with Neural is pure madness. That's still a kind of spell I would completely remove from the game. It can turn the tide nearly as fast as the old motherships' vortex ... and that one is gone for good.
gulii
Profile Joined November 2004
Sweden2791 Posts
October 08 2019 09:40 GMT
#240
Is there a petition anywhere to stop this?

I guess with my mmr this is good changes but I want to watch good finals again. I don't care about balance in diamond. I want the pros to be able to play good games.
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