EPTBlizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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Vision_
875 Posts
On October 10 2019 00:28 hg2g2 wrote: Honestly, I've always wondered whether a nydus worm just shouldn't spread creep, taking the creep buffs away, the ability to spread tumors, and possibly take up important space even after it's gone. Being able to fight 'on creep' from an effective nydus seems like an unfair offender's advantage taking into account how important creep is, and I've never really seen that discussed before. Even if i think you re probably right in terms of game design, Zerg race has always been favoured from creep tumours advantages.. That s why i think it s not mandatory for Blizz team. Further, to me the problem remains from spreading creep since Beta of SC2, the creep tumors isn t like a "building" cause it s invisible, and it s a huge advantage cause Zerg can handle fight behind and near his border creep line and other races has to pay attention, standing far from the creep. Of course, if Blizz (or me) could do a test map, some other buff will be required to help start of the Zerg game | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
Creep tumors seem downright stupid, especially with how much access to cheap and reliable scouting a Z has (in the forms of lings and overlords). This got me to think - how big of a deal would it be if a creep tumor had 0 vision (that is it wouldn't be able to see itself) and wouldn't give alerts when attacked? Spreading creep wouldn't be that much harder than it is now (because of speedlings and overlords), but it would be a tad harder to do it perfectly, especially when pressured. Zergs would have to be slighty more mindful of unit placement throughout the game, akin to other races, since creep alone would no longer be enough to notice incoming attacks / unit positioning (which I feel is a big deal in the mid game; it seems like it's impossible to catch the zerg unprepared anywhere on his side of the map because of the vision creep tumors give). | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On October 11 2019 06:05 True_Spike wrote: I decided to play a few games as zerg and one thing that immediately stood out to me (especially ZvT, mid-game and onwards) is how much vision a Z player has throughout the game. Creep tumors seem downright stupid, especially with how much access to cheap and reliable scouting a Z has (in the forms of lings and overlords). This got me to think - how big of a deal would it be if a creep tumor had 0 vision (that is it wouldn't be able to see itself) and wouldn't give alerts when attacked? Spreading creep wouldn't be that much harder than it is now (because of speedlings and overlords), but it would be a tad harder to do it perfectly, especially when pressured. Zergs would have to be slighty more mindful of unit placement throughout the game, akin to other races, since creep alone would no longer be enough to notice incoming attacks / unit positioning (which I feel is a big deal in the mid game; it seems like it's impossible to catch the zerg unprepared anywhere on his side of the map because of the vision creep tumors give). This has been a complaint of pro terran and protoss players for years now, even back in the old days. Once a Zerg gets enough creep spread on a map, they can't really be surprised by attacks anymore and the combination of the vision and speed boost from creep makes it so getting a positional advantage against lategame zerg is quite difficult. I've always thought even a reduction in vision for the creep tumours would be more than enough. Make it equivalent to a burrowed unit or something along those lines. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States726 Posts
SC2 gonna be more ground-centric, which is definitely what I want. Overall, very impressed by the new balance suggestions. I hope most of them make it through. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 11 2019 06:05 True_Spike wrote: I decided to play a few games as zerg and one thing that immediately stood out to me (especially ZvT, mid-game and onwards) is how much vision a Z player has throughout the game. Creep tumors seem downright stupid, especially with how much access to cheap and reliable scouting a Z has (in the forms of lings and overlords). This got me to think - how big of a deal would it be if a creep tumor had 0 vision (that is it wouldn't be able to see itself) and wouldn't give alerts when attacked? Spreading creep wouldn't be that much harder than it is now (because of speedlings and overlords), but it would be a tad harder to do it perfectly, especially when pressured. Zergs would have to be slighty more mindful of unit placement throughout the game, akin to other races, since creep alone would no longer be enough to notice incoming attacks / unit positioning (which I feel is a big deal in the mid game; it seems like it's impossible to catch the zerg unprepared anywhere on his side of the map because of the vision creep tumors give). Don't forget ovies on the sides of the maps. That's why I love to play as Zerg. I don't have to build 6 or so observers  I don't know, I find it neat, but at the same time it's stupid, IMO only the active creep tumors should give vision, dead ones should just keep the creap there and that's it. | ||
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AlexZhang1012
63 Posts
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gulii
Sweden2791 Posts
On October 11 2019 06:05 True_Spike wrote: I decided to play a few games as zerg and one thing that immediately stood out to me (especially ZvT, mid-game and onwards) is how much vision a Z player has throughout the game. Creep tumors seem downright stupid, especially with how much access to cheap and reliable scouting a Z has (in the forms of lings and overlords). This got me to think - how big of a deal would it be if a creep tumor had 0 vision (that is it wouldn't be able to see itself) and wouldn't give alerts when attacked? Spreading creep wouldn't be that much harder than it is now (because of speedlings and overlords), but it would be a tad harder to do it perfectly, especially when pressured. Zergs would have to be slighty more mindful of unit placement throughout the game, akin to other races, since creep alone would no longer be enough to notice incoming attacks / unit positioning (which I feel is a big deal in the mid game; it seems like it's impossible to catch the zerg unprepared anywhere on his side of the map because of the vision creep tumors give). Agree and don't agree. That would make scans quite OP in late game? Better to make tumors cost more energy imo and/or make the range of expanding tumors shorter. Or remove that cheap overlord speed. Not sure. I like that you don't have to die with your supply as much as you could in BW just for scouting. I guess I like the design of creep. It's a cool feature and I would happily see other nerfs as listed above. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
If yes that means that BC openings are dead since if you lose your first BC you lose the game. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 11 2019 17:53 MockHamill wrote: If you open 1-1-1 with an expansion can a infestor be out when you teleport your BC to their base (or very shortly after)? If yes that means that BC openings are dead since if you lose your first BC you lose the game. If zerg got an infestor out for that time, you wouldn't lose because the zerg would have literally no economy or units. They'd just have an infestor. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26399 Posts
On October 11 2019 07:32 deacon.frost wrote: Don't forget ovies on the sides of the maps. That's why I love to play as Zerg. I don't have to build 6 or so observers I don't know, I find it neat, but at the same time it's stupid, IMO only the active creep tumors should give vision, dead ones should just keep the creap there and that's it.I’m not sure what nerfs would hit a sweet spot where Zerg isn’t terrible and creep isn’t so potent. Zerg is really reliant on that early warning system to morph units plus set up flanks. Increase the cool down a little on tumours maybe so the spread isn’t quite so insane? Or some kind of vision nerf, etc. It’s a big change to start messing with but is really overdue in being something to look at. The way Legacy flows with its eco and tech Zerg can push it out really aggressively and quickly, and Terran and Protoss don’t have an equivalent boost in windows to push the creep back or delay it. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 11 2019 19:40 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m not sure what nerfs would hit a sweet spot where Zerg isn’t terrible and creep isn’t so potent. Zerg is really reliant on that early warning system to morph units plus set up flanks. Increase the cool down a little on tumours maybe so the spread isn’t quite so insane? Or some kind of vision nerf, etc. It’s a big change to start messing with but is really overdue in being something to look at. The way Legacy flows with its eco and tech Zerg can push it out really aggressively and quickly, and Terran and Protoss don’t have an equivalent boost in windows to push the creep back or delay it. Zerg has a unit for 0.5 supply. It's not like they have to sacrifice so much for an early warning system once you know they're coming(because the edge of the creep would keep the vision). It would need some testing, but the current - I can see the whole map - system is wrong(IMO) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26399 Posts
On October 11 2019 19:58 deacon.frost wrote: Zerg has a unit for 0.5 supply. It's not like they have to sacrifice so much for an early warning system once you know they're coming(because the edge of the creep would keep the vision). It would need some testing, but the current - I can see the whole map - system is wrong(IMO) No I totally agree with the system feeling wrong to me, much like my dislike of Warp gates in their current form. With borderline maphack across large portions of the map it feels super constricting, for Protoss especially. It’s super risky to be out on the map outside of actually pushes/fake pushes, Zerg get time to ascertain your strength and can pounce on you, if you shave off a bunch of Zealots to hit outlying bases they can see you coming a mile off. There’s also the small/large factor of not knowing what your opponent has actually seen too. A Terran scan is a rather big giveaway, or if I catch and obs. With creep you have to assume the possibility that everything you’re doing is seen, which forces cautious play even if your opponent hasn’t seen you, or the tumours are positioned so they didn’t grant vision to a location. There’s plenty to experiment with, you and others have mentioned some other ideas too. Even if the spawned tumours spread creep at a bigger radius, but were on a higher cool down period might do something. You get the same equivalent spread of creep but with fewer tumours, so they give less of a vision bonus, plus fewer tumours are easier to clear so pushing the creep back is more viable. It’s such a large part of the game that I’m struggling to instinctively get a fell of how much changes would affect it and to what degree, but I absolutely feel it’s an area worth looking at. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
On October 11 2019 19:58 deacon.frost wrote: Zerg has a unit for 0.5 supply. It's not like they have to sacrifice so much for an early warning system once you know they're coming(because the edge of the creep would keep the vision). It would need some testing, but the current - I can see the whole map - system is wrong(IMO) Which is exactly why I think creep tumors should not give vision at all. The edge of the creep is the problem here, since this is what gives you ample time to prepare (and mid-game you always have tons of active creep tumors due to queens pretty much re-spreading creep after every engagement). Even without creep it seems like Zerg has the best scouting potential out of all the races (in terms of investment cost vs efficiency). Scouting would require more thought than just spamming creep tumors whichever direction you want, even if it's just as simple as sending a ling somewhere on a map (and re-sending it every time it dies; the same way the other 2 races have to scout, losing resources in the process, too). Injects aren't exactly hard or tedious now with rapid casting prevalent in the game either, so forcing zergs to slightly focus on something else every now and then doesn't seem like a huge deal. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7127 Posts
How many games have you seen where T/ P kills 4-6 tumors just for the zerg to plant 15 new ones | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
I already thought to remove vision of creep tumours but i think it s better, in term of game design, to let the vision and remove invisibility --- Like that, ennemies of Zerg will continue to struggle against the borderline of creep (T often get caught, P can struggle a little bit imo) Then add hit points and armor, buildings priority, plus some welcome upgrade/buff to help defence against among others hellions, | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3426 Posts
On October 11 2019 21:24 Vision_ wrote: Of course it s THE problem since the Beta... I already thought to remove vision of creep tumours but i think it s better, in term of game design, to let the vision and remove invisibility --- Like that, ennemies of Zerg will continue to struggle against the borderline of creep (T often get caught, P can struggle a little bit imo) Then add hit points and armor, buildings priority, plus some welcome upgrade/buff to help defence against among others hellions, I don't think that's the way to go, because it would be downright impossible to spread any creep in the early game (and having *some* creep is essential, especially vs terran). | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 11 2019 21:19 Harris1st wrote: I would not change the vision itself but CD of Creep Tumors as well as energy cost of the initial tumors. How many games have you seen where T/ P kills 4-6 tumors just for the zerg to plant 15 new ones Your solution doesn't solve your problem. An increased CD doesn't matter at all when you have 8 queens. | ||
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
On October 12 2019 00:11 True_Spike wrote: I don't think that's the way to go, because it would be downright impossible to spread any creep in the early game (and having *some* creep is essential, especially vs terran). I agree that it is not the way to go, but creep is way too powerful for defensive purposes, it feels like having a maphack. Additionally, it is an anti-comeback mechanism. An intermediate alternative would be that creep tumors do not grant complete vision, but only reveal opponent units like the sensor tower does. | ||
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