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On October 11 2019 02:55 Riner1212 wrote:
would merging hellbats upgrade with bio upgrade be viable? i mean medivacs do heal hellbats so the are technically bio units is it not?
I've always think that the change that makes most sense about hellbats is to remove the bio tag and add a passive ability that allows them to be healed by medivacs.
It will make no impact in anything but the interaction betwen them and archons, wich would help terran do more conservative mech styles vs protoss without really changing much of anything.
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On October 12 2019 02:04 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2019 02:55 Riner1212 wrote:
would merging hellbats upgrade with bio upgrade be viable? i mean medivacs do heal hellbats so the are technically bio units is it not? I've always think that the change that makes most sense about hellbats is to remove the bio tag and add a passive ability that allows them to be healed by medivacs. It will make no impact in anything but the interaction betwen them and archons, wich would help terran do more conservative mech styles vs protoss without really changing much of anything.
No way man. Without archons, Hellbats too strong.
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For energy-based units, they could spawn with less energy? (BC's, for example).
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On October 12 2019 03:43 WeddingEpisode wrote:
For energy-based units, they could spawn with less energy? (BC's, for example).
BCs don't have energy. Just two cooldowned abilities.
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Glad to see blue flame finally get buffed. I think it was a long time coming. I think they could have made this change all the way back since the queen range buff in 2012 and the game would be fine.
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People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
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Creep was literally just nerfed after last Blizzcon. For the first time in SC2's history, creep recedes faster than it spreads (it used to be equal). Transfuse was nerfed too. Zerg will become dead in the water to timing attacks if these are nerfed any further without massive buffs (like making hydra a T1 unit) since garbage roaches dont cut it otherwise
What is the deal with trying to blow up a race with a barrage of nerfs? Look what happened to Protoss. The results of "balancing OP Protoss" were disastrous. The race is a complete and utter joke now and will become even more of a joke when Stats and Classic are gone.
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This whole thing is really upsetting. No one is blind to the current state of the game, everyone agrees on the late game balance issues, and it feels like they didn't really address them. Protoss are getting screwed again, Zerg get more buffs... it feels like the primary focus was the TvZ matchup this time
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On October 12 2019 01:04 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2019 21:19 Harris1st wrote:
I would not change the vision itself but CD of Creep Tumors as well as energy cost of the initial tumors.
How many games have you seen where T/ P kills 4-6 tumors just for the zerg to plant 15 new ones Your solution doesn't solve your problem. An increased CD doesn't matter at all when you have 8 queens.
This right here.
So, increase the supply cost of queens. Maybe now Zergs can’t just mindlessly spam them without reducing the quality of their army.
This will be a subtle change that won’t completely create new mechanics for the players, but will softly adjust the power of queens.
With cheaper overlord speed and warp-prism range nerfed, there’s no rationale for keeping queens this strong for defensive purposes. Zergs will have to actually respond with varying units and techs as needed.
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idk if its been suggested in here yet, but if the adept shield upgrade was available on cyber core it would actually make the 2 upgrades really interesting. it would give the toss the ability to choose between faster WG, or a stronger adept timing from normal gateway production. it has pros and cons, the timing would be stronger, but it would be relatively easy to identify if the toss doesnt have WG by a certain timing, would pretty much require a certain amount of damage for any continuation or transition from the toss, would allow both upgs for adepts to be used relatively early game etc.
not sure if it is a perfect resolution, but +20 shields for the upg time and cost being on twilight will make the upgrade go unused because it is literally always better to get glaives first, and then by the time you need a 2nd upg zealots are better.
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On October 13 2019 10:56 DanceSC wrote:
This whole thing is really upsetting. No one is blind to the current state of the game, everyone agrees on the late game balance issues, and it feels like they didn't really address them. Protoss are getting screwed again, Zerg get more buffs... it feels like the primary focus was the TvZ matchup this time
What Blizzard is doing to protoss is disgusting. Protoss is not allowed to have strong units it seems. Not even a core unit like the zealot is untouchable.
Blizzard's idea of Protoss lategame buffs are a 2 second faster interceptor build time (lol) and a random upgrade that gives useless adepts 20 shield bonus....all of the juicy buffs like are saved for Terran and to a lesser extent Zerg.
I have a feeling the same thing is about to happen to zerg. The same thing I saw happening to Protoss over the last two years (PROTOSSED memes spammed on twitch and reddit + Blizzard burying the race in nerfs) seems to be happening to Zerg....all I see on twitch, reddit, and youtube is anti-zerg trolling followed by ham fisted nerfs. A few months ago everyone was talking about how protoss was OP just because of some over representation in a single ST Ro8....after Protoss was crushed it's Zerg's turn? Is Blizzard even taking this seriously?
The game is in the worse state Ive ever seen it. Legendary Protoss players like Zest, sOs, Parting, and hero are written off as jokes/cheesers. Macro gods like Zest, Stats, and Classic are cannon rushing on the brink of elimination in the GSL. Classic and Stats are practically gone thanks to Military. None of the elite young talents are choosing protoss. Who is the reynor, clem, time of Protoss? All that's left is trap, who cannot seem to win a trophy, and neeb who just farms his NA region. The race was completely defanged.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Be careful, you will get banned for posting stuff like this - the truth hurts too much. But indeed you're right 100%.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 13 2019 04:57 BerserkSword wrote:
People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
Zerg needs to be nerfed, and nerfed hard. Protoss is already weak, as you say (mainly against Zerg) and Terran is hardly winning much lately (particularly weak in TvP and late game vs Zerg). You seem to be ignoring the fact that balance is based on the relative strength of each race. A nerf to one is effectively a buff to the others. Nerfing Zerg will help bring Protoss back to viability in PvZ (which is absolutely needed) and will help Terran in late game scenarios. Bringing Zerg down to Protoss' level is absolutely needed. Protoss buffs are not the answer as TvP is already too hard for Terran.
The current proposed changes are completely inadequate. The evidence of Zerg's strength against both other races is clear and major nerfs are needed, especially to the Infestor and I wouldn't at all mind further nerfs to creep - it's insanely powerful and suffocates the opponent. The existing nerf barely affected the real in-game speed of creep spread - look at any pro game and the map with be mostly covered by 10 minutes (and that's with the opponent constantly clearing it).
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On October 13 2019 19:51 Justinian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 04:57 BerserkSword wrote:
People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
Zerg needs to be nerfed, and nerfed hard. Protoss is already weak, as you say (mainly against Zerg) and Terran is hardly winning much lately (particularly weak in TvP and late game vs Zerg). You seem to be ignoring the fact that balance is based on the relative strength of each race. A nerf to one is effectively a buff to the others. Nerfing Zerg will help bring Protoss back to viability in PvZ (which is absolutely needed) and will help Terran in late game scenarios. Bringing Zerg down to Protoss' level is absolutely needed. Protoss buffs are not the answer as TvP is already too hard for Terran. The current proposed changes are completely inadequate. The evidence of Zerg's strength against both other races is clear and major nerfs are needed, especially to the Infestor and I wouldn't at all mind further nerfs to creep - it's insanely powerful and suffocates the opponent. The existing nerf barely affected the real in-game speed of creep spread - look at any pro game and the map with be mostly covered by 10 minutes (and that's with the opponent constantly clearing it).
Agree 100%. I still don't get why Blizzard seems to not want to admit the imbalance of Z vs T/P, this needs to be adressed. Unfortunately the proposed changes nerf toss even more while Z looks quite the same. It's pretty strange to me how this could be the case.
Also, why do they plan to have 100 updates in one building? This is stupid imo
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On October 13 2019 04:57 BerserkSword wrote:
People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
As as Protoss player the MSC was the worst thing that ever happened. Photon Overcharge took no skill. It is why I stopped playing.
The bigger issue is that Protoss lost the MSC, but the other races didn't lose their defensive crutches. So Protoss was forced to build more units early just to survive, slowing down builds.
I think Protoss early units should be buffed to force the other races to build units early if Blizzard doesn't want to equalize the defensive potential of the races.
I still think that WOL always had the early game right (save the 1-1-1 and Soul Train) and it was the late game that was the problem. You had to earn an expansion in WOL with skilled defensive play, now they are basically free. Might as well start every game with two bases. Blizzard ruined the early game in an attempt to make the late game better, and failed.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On October 14 2019 02:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 04:57 BerserkSword wrote:
People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
As as Protoss player the MSC was the worst thing that ever happened. Photon Overcharge took no skill. It is why I stopped playing. The bigger issue is that Protoss lost the MSC, but the other races didn't lose their defensive crutches. So Protoss was forced to build more units early just to survive, slowing down builds. I think Protoss early units should be buffed to force the other races to build units early if Blizzard doesn't want to equalize the defensive potential of the races. I still think that WOL always had the early game right (save the 1-1-1 and Soul Train) and it was the late game that was the problem. You had to earn an expansion in WOL with skilled defensive play, now they are basically free. Might as well start every game with two bases. Blizzard ruined the early game in an attempt to make the late game better, and failed.
THey have to be free when you start with 12 workers 
On October 13 2019 21:41 rasi86 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2019 19:51 Justinian wrote:On October 13 2019 04:57 BerserkSword wrote:
People want creep tumor vision to be gone now....make it stop
We already know what happens when you remove a defensive foundation from a race - look no further than Protoss losing its mothership core at the end of 2017. Protoss hasn't been a real trophy viable race since.
Don't do the same thing to Zerg.
Zerg needs to be nerfed, and nerfed hard. Protoss is already weak, as you say (mainly against Zerg) and Terran is hardly winning much lately (particularly weak in TvP and late game vs Zerg). You seem to be ignoring the fact that balance is based on the relative strength of each race. A nerf to one is effectively a buff to the others. Nerfing Zerg will help bring Protoss back to viability in PvZ (which is absolutely needed) and will help Terran in late game scenarios. Bringing Zerg down to Protoss' level is absolutely needed. Protoss buffs are not the answer as TvP is already too hard for Terran. The current proposed changes are completely inadequate. The evidence of Zerg's strength against both other races is clear and major nerfs are needed, especially to the Infestor and I wouldn't at all mind further nerfs to creep - it's insanely powerful and suffocates the opponent. The existing nerf barely affected the real in-game speed of creep spread - look at any pro game and the map with be mostly covered by 10 minutes (and that's with the opponent constantly clearing it). Agree 100%. I still don't get why Blizzard seems to not want to admit the imbalance of Z vs T/P, this needs to be adressed. Unfortunately the proposed changes nerf toss even more while Z looks quite the same. It's pretty strange to me how this could be the case. Also, why do they plan to have 100 updates in one building? This is stupid imo
I'll repeat my question from another thread - when was the last time this year Blizzard reacted fast in SC2? SC2 isn't exactly a priority for Blizzard it seems. (at least based on their reaction, e.g. BL range fix and how long it took them)
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It's really as if Blizzard doesn't realize they've removed Protoss from the game already - bizarre! :s
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Starcraft players love their hyperbole and the whole doom and gloom thing.
The infestor change is quite significant for PvZ. If anyone has actually played it (but lol does anyone here even play the game), you can actually feel the gravity of this change. Now that we often go both storm and disruptor, you can still destroy the infested terrans but now it actually feels like it's doing something. Blah blah blah energy units are free units blah blah, yes, but energy is still a resource that zerg needs to win a fight, so any extra drain on this actually does make a difference. Couple that with some Drogo feedback drops and you might actually get somewhere. As always, get caught out in a bad spot and it's gonna go downhill very quickly, but I learnt from Harstem the importance of having both mothership and nexus recalls available at all times.
If they rethink the charge change and the neural research removal, I think we have a very good patch on our hands. But they really do need to revisit the charge change. Changing a core unit that has such significant play in every single matchup is gonna mess with the balance way more than all of the other proposed changes combined.
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While I can get behind complaints that Z seems too strong this P has been removed from the game bullshit is just not true. Sure ZvP seems to be in an especially bad place and has been for a lot of this year but what about PvT? That matchup isn't so bad. Since the problems is in one matchup, specifically against Z maybe the problem is Z and not P, seems like a reasonable conclusion.
In general any time protoss late game isn't stronger than T and Z late game P whines, when P has the strongest late game its called just stop us from getting there but when its reversed then their race got deleted?
Also Blizz would notice if protoss would get deleted, because winrates would not be even. lol
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On October 18 2019 07:56 Shuffleblade wrote:
While I can get behind complaints that Z seems too strong this P has been removed from the game bullshit is just not true. Sure ZvP seems to be in an especially bad place and has been for a lot of this year but what about PvT? That matchup isn't so bad. Since the problems is in one matchup, specifically against Z maybe the problem is Z and not P, seems like a reasonable conclusion.
In general any time protoss late game isn't stronger than T and Z late game P whines, when P has the strongest late game its called just stop us from getting there but when its reversed then their race got deleted?
Also Blizz would notice if protoss would get deleted, because winrates would not be even. lol
What protoss players seem to take issue with, is that when they do find effective ways to actually stop them from getting there, they are drowned in public outrage and their units get nerfed. The most recent example being the 2019 gsl supertournament.
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EPT
