EPTBlizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12620 Posts
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dalecooper
56 Posts
On October 27 2019 20:36 FBTsingLoong wrote: Do we know who is the chief developer in balance team? Maybe someone from them: Rob Bridenbecker, Michael Scipione, Kevin "Mong" Dong? I believe there is no sc2 balance team. They are all working on different projects like W3:R but occasionally doing something in starcraft 2 too. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
I don't enjoy watching most of these games, they are unfair and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, I know. "don't let the door hit you on the way out". Well I actually care and this is really disappointing to me. Hopefully they'll fix this shit but I don't think it will happen remotely fast enough, in fact between balance problems and age and potentially waning interest in esports from the business side of sc2 - I'm not sure this game will last much more than 1 more year. | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
That last Reynor vs. Hero game showed why the 10 range lurker upgrade is a bad idea. Even with the current range, once enough lurkers are out they essentially begin to be like mass seige tanks and end up countering their counters. With 10 range you wouldn't really ever be able to storm them without having to sacrifice high templars, and groups of immortals would die before they would ever have the chance to actually kill more than one or two lurkers. It would force protoss to go air the same way broodlords and mech do. I agree with the above posts that there needs to be substantially bigger changes than they've proposed if they want to solve the current issues the game has. Even with the infested terran changes, protoss still doesn't have the means of countering infestor/broodlord/corruptor/viper with static defence since fungal/neural + abduct can essentially whittle down an entire 3/3 protoss air army. Tempests are the theoretical solution but they attack too slow to ever be effective. They need to revert the feedback nerf. Either that or make infestors have half the health they currently do so feedbacking a full energy infestor kills it or so other units have hopes of picking them off. There is still no protoss counter play to mass infestor other than hoping the zerg makes a mistake with micro. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
As others have said, large maps with big open areas also favored zerg's mechanics with numerous speedy but fragile zerglings and scouting information with creep tumor granting vision, but as far as the biggest issue I still think Nydus is the culprit. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
On October 27 2019 23:00 travis wrote: I think I am going to stop following sc2 after blizzcon. The game isn't balanced and it hasn't been for a long time, but the imbalance has widened because good zergs have learned to abuse the broken strategies better. I don't enjoy watching most of these games, they are unfair and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, I know. "don't let the door hit you on the way out". Well I actually care and this is really disappointing to me. Hopefully they'll fix this shit but I don't think it will happen remotely fast enough, in fact between balance problems and age and potentially waning interest in esports from the business side of sc2 - I'm not sure this game will last much more than 1 more year. As a Protoss, 2019 has been really brutal. Like, really unreasonably brutal. PvZ was always a hard matchup, with the onus on the P to make things happen, but nowadays PvZ is just plain garbage. PvT was pretty bad too, but they made some headway with the EMP change... Personally, I remember you being around this forum for a long time, and it would sadden me to see you peace out completely before the new patch can take effect. I actually think the new patch will have a great and positive impact on gameplay. | ||
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WeakOwl
25 Posts
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dalecooper
56 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
The biggest problem seems to be around balancing protoss, I can't tell what it is, but watching the other match-ups even if you make smaller mistakes you could potentially bounce back with a defensive posture, when I watch protoss play PvZ you either attack the zerg and kill him or get rolled and die. Maybe it's because protoss units are slightly overpowered, but extremely slow and you either roll the opponent or pray to the recall to save your units, if you try to retreat slower expensive units die outright. I don't mind a slight speed increase of the HT and or something. Also I don't know why but protoss are not depending on cannons + tech units to protect their bases for some reason instead they make batteries and die or get harrassed by relatively small amout of units... And yeah zerg which I can't even tell how it should be balanced, but at least watching top terrans struggle to outplay zergs is entertaining to watch. ZvP if it gets to late game is also entertaining, but Protoss just eventually dies in the end, which I think is do to zerg having vastly superior versatility and movement speed benefits that protoss can't match. Zerg on creep and with nydus just moves units around the map at 1-2 seconds time, while Protoss and Terran are forced to invest more in static defences in all their bases, when they skip on it they normally lose the economy and die. | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
Specifically, I noticed such wording on the Viking health buff, the battlecruiser nerf specifics, and the neural upgrade requirement change. I hope that neural without researching it doesn't make it through. | ||
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GrandSmurf
Netherlands462 Posts
On October 27 2019 23:00 travis wrote: I think I am going to stop following sc2 after blizzcon. The game isn't balanced and it hasn't been for a long time, but the imbalance has widened because good zergs have learned to abuse the broken strategies better. I don't enjoy watching most of these games, they are unfair and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, I know. "don't let the door hit you on the way out". Well I actually care and this is really disappointing to me. Hopefully they'll fix this shit but I don't think it will happen remotely fast enough, in fact between balance problems and age and potentially waning interest in esports from the business side of sc2 - I'm not sure this game will last much more than 1 more year. thank you for saying this out loud. that someone of your reputation is comfortable with saying it how it is. i have the same sentiment, watching these games and thinking to myself, this is'nt balanced. Team liquid readers and posters have been thoroughly conditioned to grab the pitchforks when someone says 'Imbalance' and dismiss you as a wood league balance whiner, so thanks, again. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27479 Posts
On October 27 2019 23:00 travis wrote: I think I am going to stop following sc2 after blizzcon. The game isn't balanced and it hasn't been for a long time, but the imbalance has widened because good zergs have learned to abuse the broken strategies better. I don't enjoy watching most of these games, they are unfair and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, I know. "don't let the door hit you on the way out". Well I actually care and this is really disappointing to me. Hopefully they'll fix this shit but I don't think it will happen remotely fast enough, in fact between balance problems and age and potentially waning interest in esports from the business side of sc2 - I'm not sure this game will last much more than 1 more year. It sounds a bit silly, these are all top players of course. It’s felt that Protoss are really pushing the absolute limits of their race just to keep vague parity for a while, while Zergs hadn’t been. The nydus, has been a potent tool but only abused relatively recently to its full potential in this arms race, and it feels Protoss has kind of exhausted its arsenal. | ||
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Conut
Canada1026 Posts
On October 28 2019 07:15 Wombat_NI wrote: It sounds a bit silly, these are all top players of course. It’s felt that Protoss are really pushing the absolute limits of their race just to keep vague parity for a while, while Zergs hadn’t been. The nydus, has been a potent tool but only abused relatively recently to its full potential in this arms race, and it feels Protoss has kind of exhausted its arsenal. Nice post that kinda sums up how I feel on the matter wow, I think protoss and terran keep coming up with a new trick and new build and new playstyle and it just get nerfed, idk is it just me or is it any time zerg gets bodied by a strat they nerf it so it can get to late game, then they dont balance the game for late game because "each race should have advantages at different times" omega yikes | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
The oft-mentioned Fist of Neeb was literally unstoppable. We had carriers that made all other units in the game obsolete. Let's not forget that there was a very long period of time in which Zerg had to Hydra bust on the 4th every game. I'm a Protoss player, and yes it has been a miserable year... but things are gonna be improved with the next patch. Literally every patch has been an improvement to get us to the point where we are now: An ever improving RTS game. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
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Justinian
United Kingdom158 Posts
On October 27 2019 21:57 Z3nith wrote: I just don't understand why they've decided to nerf Protoss when PvT seems to getting to a decent place now and PvZ is utterly imbalanced. If you look at the statistics for the global finals PvT is at 53% in favour of Protoss while PvZ is 61% in favour of Zerg. For low level players Terran vs Protoss feels very frustrating to play, perhaps even as bad as PvZ is for Protoss. Pros feel the same way as far as I can tell (Maru being the possible exception). Personally as a Terran player I find TvP a lot harder than TvZ, so I'm hoping the nerfs to Zerg are actually targeted to help Protoss (not Terran), so that Protoss can safely be nerfed in PvT without further reducing Protoss viability vs Zerg. I am surprised that people are losing interest in the game because of balance, as it's obvious that Zerg will be nerfed significantly after Blizzcon. A consensus has emerged and there's no way the balance team will ignore that. It's just a shame that the players had to compete at Blizzcon on this patch/map pool. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
On October 28 2019 09:10 Justinian wrote: For low level players Terran vs Protoss feels very frustrating to play, perhaps even as bad as PvZ is for Protoss. Pros feel the same way as far as I can tell (Maru being the possible exception). Personally as a Terran player I find TvP a lot harder than TvZ, so I'm hoping the nerfs to Zerg are actually targeted to help Protoss (not Terran), so that Protoss can safely be nerfed in PvT without further reducing Protoss viability vs Zerg. I am surprised that people are losing interest in the game because of balance, as it's obvious that Zerg will be nerfed significantly after Blizzcon. A consensus has emerged and there's no way the balance team will ignore that. It's just a shame that the players had to compete at Blizzcon on this patch/map pool. Seems like you got what you want coming though. Vikings that go up to 150 HP will be very very useful. Colossi will be way less easy to defend. And the higher HP means that battles will last longer, which is what the Terran generally wants anyways. Plus, observer movement speed is being drastically reduced, so more Terran sorcery can emerge that we'll need to be able to scout out some other way. | ||
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