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On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again.
You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm.
You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point
I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly
All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well)
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On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well)
I don't think you need to have the technical skill to recognise when something looks broken at the highest level. Stop gatekeeping.
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On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well)
Sure thing 5 post account made today that definitely isn't a throwaway account. I'll definitely believe your take on this.
Even the pros are complaining and being blunt about the situation. What more do they need to say or do? The guy who won the last GSL said outright it partly was because zerg is favoured right now. If the current issues aren't dealt with correctly, things could go downhill quickly with the scene. This exact thing has happened in the past. Some of the issues pros have pointed out are being dealt with well like nydus, but some of the other issues aren't at all, so it's reasonable to be concerned.
On October 29 2019 07:45 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well) I don't think you need to have the technical skill to recognise when something looks broken at the highest level. Stop gatekeeping.
Exactly. Many of us have watched pro SC2 for upwards of 9 years now. We've seen eras where there have been substantial issues with the game so we can learn to tell when something is not right. Many of us have been through 2012-2013 where pro PvZ every game was either a protoss win with immortal/sentry or a zerg win with infestor/broodlord. Same deal with multi-hour swarmhost games in 2014 or mass raven. Individual games of SC2 start to look a certain way when there are big issues where one side just seems unable to ever close out the game if the game progresses past a certain point. That's how it is right now for both terran and especially protoss against zerg, and even more so on the bigger maps.
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Northern Ireland27201 Posts
On October 29 2019 07:45 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well) Sure thing 5 post account made today that definitely isn't a throwaway account. I'll definitely believe your take on this. Even the pros are complaining and being blunt about the situation. What more do they need to say or do? The guy who won the last GSL said outright it partly was because zerg is favoured right now. If the current issues aren't dealt with correctly, things could go downhill quickly with the scene. This exact thing has happened in the past. Some of the issues pros have pointed out are being dealt with well like nydus, but some of the other issues aren't at all, so it's reasonable to be concerned.
I remember being immensely frustrated in WoL playing BL/Infestor all the time, maybe it isn’t common now on ladder now I’m inactive but I dunno.
Balance and fun are reasonably linked but not entirely, I’ve just never liked PvZ even when it’s balanced because it’s never felt balanced in terms of its flow.
The two races intersect horribly and there’s rarely been a time where the matchup has a dynamic, skirmish-filled midgame. From gateway allins thru +2 blink, the Soul Train, the Stephano Roach max, BL Infestor, what we’re seeing now. There’s periods where one race’s power spikes massively over the opponent and it’s suicide to be out skirmishing on the map.
On the plus point for me I think every other matchup in the game is pretty decent these days, to varying degrees.
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On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well)
After watching streams, high GMs will generally dominate low GMs no matter the matchup.
However, there is a major difference between balance whining as a VIEWER and as a PLAYER. It is not fun to watch a tournament if your race has matchups which seem like a constant uphill battle which is only won if there is a major skill difference.
Balance in lower levels is a different matter all together, but I think aiming at fair balance at pro level is the best approach for the game.
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On October 29 2019 08:13 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2019 06:42 FlyGaho wrote:On October 29 2019 02:06 Ben... wrote:On October 28 2019 22:39 MockHamill wrote:On October 28 2019 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 28 2019 14:28 TT1 wrote:
18 pages on this topic (here) and millions of posts on reddit.. this is why SC2 has never been a balanced game. Blizzard caters too much to the public's opinion. Balance the game around the highest level of play and get feedback from the most knowledgeable (keyword here) progamers. Never been a balanced game huh? Sc2 for the most part was always pretty balanced, way more so than other games in the rts genre with a comparable amount of playable factions Also the imbalances are small and only affects the top 50 or so players. For 99.9% of the playerbase the game is balanced or very close to balanced. Basically if you are below high GM just playing just a few percent better will have a larger impact than any imbalance. What motivation is there to get better when you know whether you are GM or platinum league, you're going to be playing against infestors, broodlords, and mass static for 40 minutes in many of your games? It's not fun to play against no matter what level you are. I just watched Harstem lose a PvZ on Thunderbird where he mined an entire extra base of resources, and killed nearly all of the zerg's bases, but couldn't end the game because the zerg camped out one base with mass infestors, broodlords, corruptors, vipers and static defense. It took over a half hour to finish the game off and ended with him losing despite having an economic advantage for 10 minutes and harassing his opponent's bases nonstop. Seeing games like that certainly does not make me want to push to get better at the game. If a game isn't fun to play, then whether it is balanced or not becomes entirely secondary. It'd be no different if it were turtle mech or mass protoss air that were too strong. In all three cases it'd be not fun to play against. This last four or five months of the state of the zerg is the first thing since I've come back two years ago that has actually reminded me of WoL infestor/broodlord or HOTS swarmhost turtling. If these issues aren't dealt with completely and in a thorough way, it could materially harm the prospects of a game that is already in a weakened state. That's why so many people, including longtime community members as we've seen above, are voicing their concerns. Highly passive styles becoming dominant seem to coincide with drops in popularity of the game, and that's the trajectory we are on unless things are corrected quickly. In HOTS during the swarmhost era, there was a lot of "just play better" sentiment put out at first to people complaining about how horrible swarmhosts were to play against. That sentiment, combined with slow moves from Blizzard to deal with the issue, caused people to opt to look elsewhere and do other things than play SC2. We want to avoid that type of thing happening again. You just proved his point. Balance only applies to skillful players such as Harsterm. You will never see any mass infestor BL plays in ANY Diamond/platinum games because most players are just trashes. Also most games don't even get to that point I'm a mid master Protoss and only 5% of my games will I ever encounter infestor/Bl composition. And yet I can still have at least 60% chance of winning because my opponent is not skillful enough to use the infestor correctly All this crying/whining about imbalance zerg from most of the TL posters are just laughable because most probably have never really played against a real infestor/BL composition game in their SC2 life. (I am currently one of them as well) After watching streams, high GMs will generally dominate low GMs no matter the matchup. However, there is a major difference between balance whining as a VIEWER and as a PLAYER. It is not fun to watch a tournament if your race has matchups which seem like a constant uphill battle which is only won if there is a major skill difference. Balance in lower levels is a different matter all together, but I think aiming at fair balance at pro level is the best approach for the game.
I agree with this statement.
As a viewer, the zerg meta whether SH/nydus and BL/Infestor suck ass to watch as a viewer. But as a player, these balance will never affect 99% of the player base.
What I have a problem is with all the whiners acting like they "play" this game and that they are losing to this meta/composition when they never faced it once in their life.
Hence demanding nerfs here and there to the other races.
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I wonder if the liberator range nerf will change anything in TvT? Liberators will still have 3 more range than thors so I suspect that thors will still not work as a liberator counter?
I am really not liking the current TvT - air dominance is too importantant. The stronger viking will be useful in TvP and TvZ but it may not be good for the meta in TvT.
I think the game as a whole would be improved if you always can use ground anti-air to counter air instead of being forced to win the air war. Air wars are the most boring part of the game since terrain does not matter much and there is not much you can do if he has more air units compared to you.
This has nothing to do with balance per se, it is just less fun to play and watch air vs air.
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To me it looks like nydus is the most out of place. The instant transportation of zerg army ruins the push and pull we've seen for years. Feels like the changes they are making will help slow that down. I would like to see a nydus that worked well on creep, but was slow / costly off of creep. Make overlord pooping creep individual like dropperlord.
As for infestors... feels like they have counter play, (feedback / emp) but brood lords broodlings shut that down. Not sure that infestor is the problem, but maybe the broodlings... they always have been the problem due to pathing I think. I would like to see BL turn into guardian style unit with slight splash / small speed upgrade.
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I wonder if anyone at Blizzard actually got the memo from Rogue.
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On October 30 2019 00:52 loft wrote:
To me it looks like nydus is the most out of place. The instant transportation of zerg army ruins the push and pull we've seen for years. Feels like the changes they are making will help slow that down. I would like to see a nydus that worked well on creep, but was slow / costly off of creep. Make overlord pooping creep individual like dropperlord.
As for infestors... feels like they have counter play, (feedback / emp) but brood lords broodlings shut that down. Not sure that infestor is the problem, but maybe the broodlings... they always have been the problem due to pathing I think. I would like to see BL turn into guardian style unit with slight splash / small speed upgrade.
Feedback nerf means it no longer counters infestors.
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Netherlands4523 Posts
As i'm currently not a progamer I am no longer invested into any of these changes so I am trying to not be biased towards Zerg here but I have to say that I really think they went way overboard based on current sentiment.
Zerg is too strong right now, but I'm convinced it's almost entirely a combination of the maps being very Zerg favored as well the nydus worm being insanely overpowered. The changes adressing the nydus worm are good but :
Changing creep mechanics by not allowing a cancel will not do anything to increase skill cap (I have no idea what this is based on?), infact cancelling tumors takes quick reaction time and not being able to do that anymore will really mess Zerg up a lot more vs terran than they probably can imagine.
Then removing infested terrans entirely, replacing it with a dark swarm like feature which has your units take 50% less damage vs air, combined with 9 range broodlord leash. this makes me feel that disruptors and templars will just blanket everything that is under these 'shrouds' and I don't see how zerg is meant to fight back vs air+storm+disruptors.
I'm worried for sc2 because if you compare all these changes compared to their last changes, you see them taking a 360 change on a lot of previous ideas and thoughts they had about the game, and all of it seems based on reddit comments/whining on social media about how zerg is OP...... instead of doing their own testing, and having a vision behind what they are doing. Do they not realise how big of an impact the map pool has? The changes they made in august haven't been really been able to shine through because they came with imbalanced maps at the same time as making changes.
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Really neat update. I've been talking about an AOE spell that makes ground units stronger against air for 2 years! Excited to see how it plays out.
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Ugh. Not a fan of those changes. Infested terrans are a really cool ability and +8 impact charge damage promoted micro more than just amoving ferrari Zealots across the map
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The protoss changes are really interesting. The mothership change is a long needed one and the zealot change may actually provide a higher element of skill to the use of zealots (who knows we may even get zealot micro?). The adept change adds another layer of strategy to the adept which is also really cool and could turn it into a really worthwhile harassment unit.
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First, I will say that the initial proposed changes were pretty bad. The changes addressed nydus worms, but the changes also introduced a lot of mind-boggling changes. I like a number of these new changes a lot more. Mothership finally being heroic is very, very long overdue.
That being said, straight up removing infested Terrans is a pretty big nerf. It's not just their AA, but they also provided buffer on the ground. Now, it's not one I think they'll keep, but I would rather have a bit of toning down on units the Zerg already has rather than removing a unit entirely.
On October 30 2019 03:47 Liquid`Ret wrote: Then removing infested terrans entirely, replacing it with a dark swarm like feature which has your units take 50% less damage vs air, combined with 9 range broodlord leash. this makes me feel that disruptors and templars will just blanket everything that is under these 'shrouds' and I don't see how zerg is meant to fight back vs air+storm+disruptors.
While I disagree with the IT change, it's not like fungal, corruptors, broodlords, or vipers have ceased to exist. In watching the recent PvZ games, it was never the ITs that prevented HT or disruptors from using their AOE to blanket the Zerg ground army. Yes, the broodlords have a lot lower range, but infestors still zone with fungal, and vipers can abduct.
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I don't know about locking Shroud behind Hive tech based research. That seems excessive for what the spell does.
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Canada8990 Posts
OMG we killed infested terrans guy!!!
Take that TL mods, balanced whine isn't toxic, it's the way of progress!
But seriously I'm quite happy with the Shroud idea they have, I think it's a neat way to have a low number of infestor to play a role. I would just advise the team to make sure the texture is nice.
Not sure it's need to be behind hive either, but it will need a while to balanced in any cases. I really like the idea, I honestly think it has the potential to fix the infestor the way they somehow made the raven into a cool unit.
The adept change are also interesting, gonna have to wait to see how it plays out.
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I like the changes, but infestors should get some auto attack to be able to defend themselves at least a little.
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On October 30 2019 05:21 MrFreeman wrote:
I like the changes, but infestors should get some auto attack to be able to defend themselves at least a little.
They can already burrow.
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EPT
