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Blizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Hvvacha
Profile Joined April 2018
82 Posts
October 30 2019 01:37 GMT
#401
virgin microbial swarm vs chad dark swarm
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-30 02:10:38
October 30 2019 01:54 GMT
#402
On October 30 2019 10:11 dalecooper wrote:
Much better. But why are they trying to speed things up. Faster, faster. Speed up. Just curious.

For the most part I agree that speeding things up for the sake of speeding things up is bad, but I think this is the one case where it's good. Protoss ground units are all very slow, including the units that absorb damage like zealots, which makes doing things like flanks quite tricky because they can't be done reactively. Making it so zealots can move faster and get into position easier will allow more of this type of play style.

With the current numbers listed, zealots with charge will be about ~14.3% faster than they currently are with charge, and the speed is the same as bio that is stimmed. That's a big jump but with the trade-off of no damage on first hit with charge, it balances out nicely because it means that even though that 8 damage is gone on contact, because the zealots can now more easily chase down units, they are far more likely to land more hits. This change is a big deal because it stops the huge damage spike that happens currently when a bunch of charge zealots initially hit a target, but will instead allow them to be more consistent with dealing damage. For example, against a bio army, zealots can now keep up with charge. Previously, if a group of zealots attacked a bio ball, the bio army would take their initial damage from charge but then essentially be able to stim and kite the zealots on cooldown to death because they could never catch up. Now they can catch up, but instead the protoss won't be guaranteed to kill several units every time their zealots charge. The charge will now get the zealots close, and the speed will allow them to chase the rest of the way so it will come down to the terran microing their bio versus the protoss microing their zealots and keeping the zealots slowed by marauders from blocking the others chasing the bio down.

Against zerg, charge zealots are now comfortably faster than both roaches and hydras with speed off creep (both of those units have an off-creep speed of around 4ish, with roaches slightly faster). This will enable protoss to finally be able to more easily chase down zerg armies that try and fail to do busts for example. They can also now chase down upgraded lurkers as they are now faster than them too off creep.

It's a pretty cool change.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
October 30 2019 02:01 GMT
#403
On October 30 2019 10:19 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2019 10:13 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:04 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:40 travis wrote:
All these changes at once may put P in too strong of a spot, but I do like what is being suggested much more now.

I don’t really care who is strong or weak post patch, that can be tweaked a bit it just seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of potential compositions and unit interactions.

Of course things may not end up meshing and delivering the desired results of course.

BL Infestor is nerfed, but the new Zerg ability sounds promising to give Zerg the potential to counter airtoss with ground units and ‘not dark swarm’

Regardless of which race is atop any given meta, I’m pretty sure most players and observers don’t like overpowered air balls that can’t be defeated by anything other than other air balls


As long as BLs, and now the new 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is pretty much forced to go skytoss

It really depends on how the game flows and how compositional transitions will all work.

If the Infestor is less of a catch-all unit and works in more of a support capacity seems like you’d go something/hydra into lurker with infestor support, seems difficult to fit a bunch of Broods into that.


I meant that because things like BL and 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is forced to go into skytoss eventually. Regardless of whether BLs are a big part of hydra lurker comps


Hum idk with -1 range on BL I think stalker will do surprisingly well against them. Blink play against them already isn't that terrible if you can hit a timing.
As for lurker we'll see, I think as they have been pretty much out of the meta in a while it will take time to figure out if protoss has a decent counter against them with the new patch.


Even the current lurker strongly invites the Protoss to transition to air. When lurkers were meta, archon/immortal could occasionally find a win against mass lurker, but even then skytoss was the more solid option. And as we've seen from Dark, Reynor and a few others lurkers do pretty well when you go for them nowadays even when they're out of meta. With an even better lurker I don't see why that would change.
pzlama333
Profile Joined April 2013
United States282 Posts
October 30 2019 02:02 GMT
#404
Just report that the damage reduction of Microbial Shroud works before armor. For example, a 3/3 carrier will do (8/2-3)*2 = 1*2 damage per interceptor attack against 3/3 hydralisk, equivalent as 80% damage reduction. 28 hydralisks can kill all interceptors of 10 carriers with 20 hydra left. So it may worth a try.
9-range psi storm and colossus can be prevented by 10-range lurkers.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
October 30 2019 02:24 GMT
#405
On October 30 2019 10:54 Ben... wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2019 10:11 dalecooper wrote:
Much better. But why are they trying to speed things up. Faster, faster. Speed up. Just curious.

For the most part I agree that speeding things up for the sake of speeding things up is bad, but I think this is the one case where it's good. Protoss ground units are all very slow, including the units that absorb damage like zealots, which makes doing things like flanks quite tricky because they can't be done reactively. Making it so zealots can move faster and get into position easier will allow more of this type of play style.

With the current numbers listed, zealots with charge will be about ~14.3% faster than they currently are with charge, and the speed is the same as bio that is stimmed. That's a big jump but with the trade-off of no damage on first hit with charge, it balances out nicely because it means that even though that 8 damage is gone on contact, because the zealots can now more easily chase down units, they are far more likely to land more hits. This change is a big deal because it stops the huge damage spike that happens currently when a bunch of charge zealots initially hit a target, but will instead allow them to be more consistent with dealing damage. For example, against a bio army, zealots can now keep up with charge. Previously, if a group of zealots attacked a bio ball, the bio army would take their initial damage from charge but then essentially be able to stim and kite the zealots on cooldown to death because they could never catch up. Now they can catch up, but instead the protoss won't be guaranteed to kill several units every time their zealots charge. The charge will now get the zealots close, and the speed will allow them to chase the rest of the way so it will come down to the terran microing their bio versus the protoss microing their zealots and keeping the zealots slowed by marauders from blocking the others chasing the bio down.

Against zerg, charge zealots are now comfortably faster than both roaches and hydras with speed off creep (both of those units have an off-creep speed of around 4ish, with roaches slightly faster). This will enable protoss to finally be able to more easily chase down zerg armies that try and fail to do busts for example. They can also now chase down upgraded lurkers as they are now faster than them too off creep.

It's a pretty cool change.

Everything else but especially this. Engagements aside and chasing down units, which is nice I think the biggest potential benefit is being able to run Zealots around the map and have presence.

Currently Protoss doesn’t have a ground unit that can shark around and actually retreat at all. I think the possibility of changing a 10 zealot suicide squad vs a 10 zealot sharking squad that can posture, retreat and potentially be retained is pretty exciting for sure.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
October 30 2019 02:30 GMT
#406
On October 30 2019 10:19 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2019 10:13 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:04 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:40 travis wrote:
All these changes at once may put P in too strong of a spot, but I do like what is being suggested much more now.

I don’t really care who is strong or weak post patch, that can be tweaked a bit it just seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of potential compositions and unit interactions.

Of course things may not end up meshing and delivering the desired results of course.

BL Infestor is nerfed, but the new Zerg ability sounds promising to give Zerg the potential to counter airtoss with ground units and ‘not dark swarm’

Regardless of which race is atop any given meta, I’m pretty sure most players and observers don’t like overpowered air balls that can’t be defeated by anything other than other air balls


As long as BLs, and now the new 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is pretty much forced to go skytoss

It really depends on how the game flows and how compositional transitions will all work.

If the Infestor is less of a catch-all unit and works in more of a support capacity seems like you’d go something/hydra into lurker with infestor support, seems difficult to fit a bunch of Broods into that.


I meant that because things like BL and 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is forced to go into skytoss eventually. Regardless of whether BLs are a big part of hydra lurker comps


Hum idk with -1 range on BL I think stalker will do surprisingly well against them. Blink play against them already isn't that terrible if you can hit a timing.
As for lurker we'll see, I think as they have been pretty much out of the meta in a while it will take time to figure out if protoss has a decent counter against them with the new patch.


Oh yea I agree that there is a window to punish BLs when there is little support for them. Same could be said about infestor though. I remember neeb beating serral with that timing.

In a late game scenario, though, Protoss cannot afford to stick to ground-based comps because BLs w/ support and/or critical mass of lurkers just dominates groundtoss.

I do think Protoss can beat lurkers....but with skytoss. The 10 range lurkers are insane vs groundtoss (as per wardi's pro tournament on the balance patch). But I am of the opinion that even the current lurker at critical mass beats ground toss.
TL+ Member
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-30 02:32:54
October 30 2019 02:32 GMT
#407
On October 30 2019 11:02 pzlama333 wrote:
Just report that the damage reduction of Microbial Shroud works before armor. For example, a 3/3 carrier will do (8/2-3)*2 = 1*2 damage per interceptor attack against 3/3 hydralisk, equivalent as 80% damage reduction. 28 hydralisks can kill all interceptors of 10 carriers with 20 hydra left. So it may worth a try.
9-range psi storm and colossus can be prevented by 10-range lurkers.


Protoss incorporates some Tempests in the deathball, and they get free damage regardless of 10 range lurkers.

If Zerg tries to jump on deathball, it gets blanketed by storm/distruptor nova/time warp.

Zerg losing free infested terran to flood the ground space is huge.
TL+ Member
Ryu3600
Profile Joined January 2016
Canada470 Posts
October 30 2019 02:49 GMT
#408
The updated patch notes look really really good. The idea of moving away anti air from the infestor and giving it a more defensive and even sieging mechanic with microbial shroud is really cool to me. This would give situations like letting you stay alive with hydras vs bc's/carriers or letting ultralisks fight an snipe a p.f defended by a few libs. The creep tumor change is also amazing and the mothership change has been a long time coming. I do think though like most people I am concerned with the zealot change. Giving random units more mobility doesn't seem like a great thing to me. Like - buffing medivac overall speed, buffing voidray speed, buffing obs speed (was reverted), raven speed and now zealot speed just seems odd.
Maru is the best Terran ever.
91matt
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom147 Posts
October 30 2019 03:06 GMT
#409
I fear its going to turn into skytoss / turtle mech vs zerg. I hope blizzard keeps an eye on that.
tigon_ridge
Profile Joined March 2019
482 Posts
October 30 2019 03:07 GMT
#410
I echo Ret's opinion that this is going to evolve into a disruptor/storm fest, and zerg will be clearly disadvantaged in almost every 200 vs 200 lategame big engagement. Zerg will have to rely on multi-prong engagements in lategame to win. Just about everything on the Zerg's side is getting nerfed, while Zerg will have to deal with a lot more drops and VR harassment/hatchery snipes. If this patch goes through, I'm predicting that Zerg will be lagging by roughly 5-8% in the future, which I guess at least isn't as bad as how much protoss is currently lagging by (15%). I'd be glad to be proven wrong, though.
IshinShishi
Profile Joined April 2012
Japan6156 Posts
October 30 2019 03:28 GMT
#411
much better, protoss players need this.
So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie
Zahir
Profile Joined March 2012
United States947 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-30 03:37:02
October 30 2019 03:35 GMT
#412
I am a fan of these changes.

The previous update was ridden with stat tweaks, unnecessary upgrades, or changes to existing upgrades, and not a lot of substantial change.

This is certainly a bold step, and I'd argue a step in the right direction - protoss has more micro potential with speedy zealots, zerg ground to air is at least in theory more viable, and the worst composition for spectating (infestor/BL) has been nerfed. Also, good on them for keeping the BC cheese/nydus nerfs.

I don't really think the adept change will improve protoss compositions - rather it will strengthen allins. I frankly don't think the adept needed to be changed to begin with. It's fine for some units to taper off in the late game.

I also am severely skeptical that the new half-of-a-dark swarm will provide enough sustain compared to the loss of ITs. Zerg currently uses ITs as both buffer unit and DPS. In broodwar, dark swarm provides 100% dps reduction and lasts a staggering 38 seconds, compared to 11 for the new spell iirc -- and there, there's an interesting and slightly zerg-favored interaction with storm being used to clear out dark swarms. With this mere 50% damage reduction, I just don't see it having much of an impact.

I really hope blizzard will strengthen the microbial swarm or w/e prior to releasing the patch. In its current incarnation I think it will get ignored completely by zerg players, and for good reason. Better to release a somewhat overpowered spell and then scale it back as players learn how to maximize its efficacy.
What is best? To crush the Zerg, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the Protoss.
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
October 30 2019 03:48 GMT
#413
I like the changes much more now. I think the new role for the infestor as a true support unit is so much better than its previous role. Zealot change and Adepts change are much more interesting now. Although adept change is dangerous as well I will wait and see how strong adept all ins are before complaining about it though. Overlord speed nerf was badly needed giving zerg such a large informational advantage is one of the biggest contributors to the current state of balance. In early game gas is pretty hard for zerg to squeeze out so even 25 more gas cost is pretty significant when it comes to the scout timing that they are able to achieve. I have mixed feelings about the bc interaction now that zerg cant cancel it. On one hand boy am I happy that terran has this viable late game option that amounts to more than just turtle with mah ghost liberator while i drop nukes and hope to win strat. on the other hand, BCS feel extremely strong for terran and with the bl infestor deathball nerfs it may be hard for zerg to deal with a turtling mech terran abusing bcs, Still its hard for me to foresee how all these changes will interact so I look forward to seeing how the meta develops.

One thing I can say for sure is that whatever the meta is on this upcoming patch it will be very different from the meta we have now and that's a good thing.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
October 30 2019 03:55 GMT
#414
On October 30 2019 11:30 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2019 10:19 Nakajin wrote:
On October 30 2019 10:13 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:04 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:40 travis wrote:
All these changes at once may put P in too strong of a spot, but I do like what is being suggested much more now.

I don’t really care who is strong or weak post patch, that can be tweaked a bit it just seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of potential compositions and unit interactions.

Of course things may not end up meshing and delivering the desired results of course.

BL Infestor is nerfed, but the new Zerg ability sounds promising to give Zerg the potential to counter airtoss with ground units and ‘not dark swarm’

Regardless of which race is atop any given meta, I’m pretty sure most players and observers don’t like overpowered air balls that can’t be defeated by anything other than other air balls


As long as BLs, and now the new 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is pretty much forced to go skytoss

It really depends on how the game flows and how compositional transitions will all work.

If the Infestor is less of a catch-all unit and works in more of a support capacity seems like you’d go something/hydra into lurker with infestor support, seems difficult to fit a bunch of Broods into that.


I meant that because things like BL and 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is forced to go into skytoss eventually. Regardless of whether BLs are a big part of hydra lurker comps


Hum idk with -1 range on BL I think stalker will do surprisingly well against them. Blink play against them already isn't that terrible if you can hit a timing.
As for lurker we'll see, I think as they have been pretty much out of the meta in a while it will take time to figure out if protoss has a decent counter against them with the new patch.


Oh yea I agree that there is a window to punish BLs when there is little support for them. Same could be said about infestor though. I remember neeb beating serral with that timing.

In a late game scenario, though, Protoss cannot afford to stick to ground-based comps because BLs w/ support and/or critical mass of lurkers just dominates groundtoss.

I do think Protoss can beat lurkers....but with skytoss. The 10 range lurkers are insane vs groundtoss (as per wardi's pro tournament on the balance patch). But I am of the opinion that even the current lurker at critical mass beats ground toss.



I'm thinking we might see disruptors out of toss to deal with lurkers rather than skytoss or maybe disruptor tempest. Their might be a cool dance between vipers trying to abduct disruptors and protoss trying to get value shots on lurkers. Disrutpors range is larger than 10 so It could definitely be a strat.
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
emperorofwild
Profile Joined July 2019
87 Posts
October 30 2019 04:14 GMT
#415
Is Nydus still no CD?Man 25/25 to a middle or late game Zerg is really not a big deal. A 4-5 time nydus can make a Protoss or Terran Player even audiences feel tired, and these will only cost 125/125 more ?
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
October 30 2019 04:55 GMT
#416
On October 30 2019 12:55 washikie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2019 11:30 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 10:19 Nakajin wrote:
On October 30 2019 10:13 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:23 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 09:04 BerserkSword wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 30 2019 08:40 travis wrote:
All these changes at once may put P in too strong of a spot, but I do like what is being suggested much more now.

I don’t really care who is strong or weak post patch, that can be tweaked a bit it just seems to be moving in the right direction in terms of potential compositions and unit interactions.

Of course things may not end up meshing and delivering the desired results of course.

BL Infestor is nerfed, but the new Zerg ability sounds promising to give Zerg the potential to counter airtoss with ground units and ‘not dark swarm’

Regardless of which race is atop any given meta, I’m pretty sure most players and observers don’t like overpowered air balls that can’t be defeated by anything other than other air balls


As long as BLs, and now the new 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is pretty much forced to go skytoss

It really depends on how the game flows and how compositional transitions will all work.

If the Infestor is less of a catch-all unit and works in more of a support capacity seems like you’d go something/hydra into lurker with infestor support, seems difficult to fit a bunch of Broods into that.


I meant that because things like BL and 10 range lurker exist, Protoss is forced to go into skytoss eventually. Regardless of whether BLs are a big part of hydra lurker comps


Hum idk with -1 range on BL I think stalker will do surprisingly well against them. Blink play against them already isn't that terrible if you can hit a timing.
As for lurker we'll see, I think as they have been pretty much out of the meta in a while it will take time to figure out if protoss has a decent counter against them with the new patch.


Oh yea I agree that there is a window to punish BLs when there is little support for them. Same could be said about infestor though. I remember neeb beating serral with that timing.

In a late game scenario, though, Protoss cannot afford to stick to ground-based comps because BLs w/ support and/or critical mass of lurkers just dominates groundtoss.

I do think Protoss can beat lurkers....but with skytoss. The 10 range lurkers are insane vs groundtoss (as per wardi's pro tournament on the balance patch). But I am of the opinion that even the current lurker at critical mass beats ground toss.



I'm thinking we might see disruptors out of toss to deal with lurkers rather than skytoss or maybe disruptor tempest. Their might be a cool dance between vipers trying to abduct disruptors and protoss trying to get value shots on lurkers. Disrutpors range is larger than 10 so It could definitely be a strat.


Disruptors don't stand a chance.

Tunneling claws allows Lurkers to easily dodge the disruptor balls. Vipers = free kills on disruptors like you said as well.

In wardi's balance patch pro tournament, lurker hydra just slaughtered the ground toss
TL+ Member
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
October 30 2019 04:56 GMT
#417
On October 30 2019 12:07 tigon_ridge wrote:
I echo Ret's opinion that this is going to evolve into a disruptor/storm fest, and zerg will be clearly disadvantaged in almost every 200 vs 200 lategame big engagement. Zerg will have to rely on multi-prong engagements in lategame to win. Just about everything on the Zerg's side is getting nerfed, while Zerg will have to deal with a lot more drops and VR harassment/hatchery snipes. If this patch goes through, I'm predicting that Zerg will be lagging by roughly 5-8% in the future, which I guess at least isn't as bad as how much protoss is currently lagging by (15%). I'd be glad to be proven wrong, though.


I agree with this 100%

Zerg lategame is much too weak now
TL+ Member
Sonic_714
Profile Joined October 2019
2 Posts
October 30 2019 05:25 GMT
#418
seems better. but marines will be unable to escape from zealots
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-30 05:41:44
October 30 2019 05:40 GMT
#419
On October 30 2019 11:49 Ryu3600 wrote:
The updated patch notes look really really good. The idea of moving away anti air from the infestor and giving it a more defensive and even sieging mechanic with microbial shroud is really cool to me.

It's an hive upgrade. It cost 150/150, it takes 79s to complete... It costs 100 energy.

You should stay on a 3 area for 11s... in front of storm/chargelots...

It's not a cool change, IT was buffed for a reason = zerg can't compete in lategame vs protoss deathball due to weak anti-air.
This ability is not only overpriced, come super late, it's also not credible to be used vs protoss deathball (who got a void buff + MSC buffs + tempest buff). It's just a huge nerf to say all zerg = you can't win if Protoss gets a deathball.
RealityTheGreat
Profile Joined January 2018
China564 Posts
October 30 2019 06:35 GMT
#420
Back to BW.
Betrayed, forgotten, abandoned.
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