EPTBlizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Kitai
United States867 Posts
The Infested Terran removal is a pretty wild idea too. Neural + Infested Terrans has been an iconic duo since the game's release. While I agree they needed to nerf ITs, slapping them with the banhammer just seems wrong. Ah well, at the end of the day I'm still glad the Infestor nerfs happened. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Balance wise I have no idea. I suspect it is almost impossible to know what the balance will be when you make so many changes at the same time. The only thing that bothers me is that Protoss will still have the ultimate Deathball and the best anti-deatball unit (the disruptor) at the same time. I wonder if mech will be extinct again in TvP again? No real counter to disruptors since they now outrange liberators, Tempest with 25 more health. 14 range instead of 15 does not matter much when you kite with storm support. Time warp now also affecting air units will make time/warmp HT really strong. Then again vikings are already quite useless vs Protoss if the go air/ht so maybe this will not change much in practice. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
I still think neural parasite existing is bad for the game. I don't like hero unit approach. I like the Terran changes. I still don't like EMP (removes skill expression rather than adding it, no mana no choice of ability, no shields, run away, can't be moved out of to conserve shields and obs vs cloak miniigame isn't fun or complex imo). I still don't like the BC abilities as they are also theoretically uninteractive, especially with yamato doing the amount of damage it does. Mass BC is cost effective vs ~everything (everything protoss has for sure) due to yamato and can just jump away. This patch doesn't cleanly fix all this. Zerg I would have been fine with seeing big changes to Zerg, Zerg is by far the race I find least fun to play or watch and seems least fair to play against. I am glad infestors and nydus were nerfed. I don't like that neural still exists. Queens still seem way too good. I would like to see zerg get a new ground unit that has good anti air or make hydras more of an anti air unit so Zerg could have more compositions. Protoss Zealot- Nerf/change Adept- Nerf/change Observer- Nerf Void- New speed upgrade Tempest- Loses 1 range, gains 25 hp Mothership- Shouldn't be in the game w/e Where is a protoss buff? Its the weakest race both now and overall historically, its about time Protoss had something to be hyped about and this is meant to be the biggest change of the year. Terran get easier accsess upgrades & better thors. Zerg get 10 range lurkers I don't like how they talk as if Protoss players make zealots/adepts because they are a move friendly rather than addressing that they are a mineral dump so protoss can make the high gas cost units they need (some of which are really not a move friendly, Disruptors, High templar). | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On October 30 2019 20:19 paddyz wrote: I am glad they reverted everything they reverted. Those changes looked terrible. I still think neural parasite existing is bad for the game. I don't like hero unit approach. I like the Terran changes. I still don't like EMP (removes skill expression rather than adding it, no mana no choice of ability, no shields, run away, can't be moved out of to conserve shields and obs vs cloak miniigame isn't fun or complex imo). I still don't like the BC abilities as they are also theoretically uninteractive, especially with yamato doing the amount of damage it does. Mass BC is cost effective vs ~everything (everything protoss has for sure) due to yamato and can just jump away. This patch doesn't cleanly fix all this. Zerg I would have been fine with seeing big changes to Zerg, Zerg is by far the race I find least fun to play or watch and seems least fair to play against. I am glad infestors and nydus were nerfed. I don't like that neural still exists. Queens still seem way too good. I would like to see zerg get a new ground unit that has good anti air or make hydras more of an anti air unit so Zerg could have more compositions. Protoss Zealot- Nerf/change Adept- Nerf/change Observer- Nerf Void- New speed upgrade Tempest- Loses 1 range, gains 25 hp Mothership- Shouldn't be in the game w/e Where is a protoss buff? Its the weakest race both now and overall historically, its about time Protoss had something to be hyped about and this is meant to be the biggest change of the year. Terran get easier accsess upgrades & better thors. Zerg get 10 range lurkers I don't like how they talk as if Protoss players make zealots/adepts because they are a move friendly rather than addressing that they are a mineral dump so protoss can make the high gas cost units they need (some of which are really not a move friendly, Disruptors, High templar). Dude these Protoss changes are fine especially in tandem with the others. We now have zealot stim. | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
I think they nerfed the right units, not in optimal ways. I think this will make the game better but I also think this missed an opportunity to make it much better. | ||
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QOGQOG
817 Posts
I would have liked to see a more fundamental rethink on Zerg to get rid of/significantly change the Queen (right now a nonsense mashup of all kinds of abilities/roles), but this should at least weaken Infestor/BL. Too bad it'll come too late for Classic and HerO. | ||
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naughtDE
158 Posts
Pretty sure they gonna revert the Zealot change around march, without readding the dmg, typical blizzard way of nerfing toss. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1350 Posts
And a big YEAH for the Mothership buff :D Mass queens is also a problem imo, one queen per hatch might be a solution? | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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fealx
Germany376 Posts
On October 30 2019 21:11 Schelim wrote: so basically now if you make Infestors at lair tech you can only cast fungal just like the HT can only use feedback without storm upgrade. seems fair to me | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On October 30 2019 21:26 fealx wrote: just like the HT can only use feedback without storm upgrade. seems fair to me And fungal is a hell of a lot better than feedback. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Several things are either too strong or useless at all, such as Nydus and to some part as well Infestors. The Queen: It is too strong but Zerg doesn't have any option to get anti air as Hydras come too late and too few. I would still like to consider changing the Roach and Hydralisk position in the zerg setup. Put the Hydralisk where the Roach is now with Lurker Den available at Lair. Put the Roach where the Hydralisk is now with Ravager upgrade at Lair. With this change you get a lot of things right: Queens can be nerfed, Banelings can be nerfed, Hydra/Lurker can be nerfed & decreased in cost and Roach/Ravager can be buffed and increased in cost. That will allow a more natural way of playing the game instead of relying on Baneling + Queens against Terran the early game. Midgame Roach/Ravagers might be much more fun to play and watch and less cheesy than they are now. This will bring terran mech play to the table in TvZ. The banshee & liberator will benefit from less strong hydralisks & queens. And many more positive effects will come from this e. g. in PvZ ground unit interaction. Next to Disruptor/Colossi interaction changes, with lessened Hydralisk protoss air and corruptors could be nerved a bit more. I suggested this already like ~4-6 years ago in a different context. I still feel like that would make a lot of sense to create a more natural progression through units like in Broodwar. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On October 30 2019 21:54 LSN wrote: Fundamental questionable desings are still the issue I see. Several things are either too strong or useless at all, such as Nydus and to some part as well Infestors. The Queen: It is too strong but Zerg doesn't have any option to get anti air as Hydras come too late and too few. I would still like to consider changing the Roach and Hydralisk position in the zerg setup. Put the Hydralisk where the Roach is now with Lurker Den available at Lair. Put the Roach where the Hydralisk is now with Ravager upgrade at Lair. With this change you get a lot of things right: Queens can be nerfed, Banelings can be nerfed, Hydra/Lurker can be nerfed & decreased in cost and Roach/Ravager can be buffed and increased in cost. That will allow a more natural way of playing the game instead of relying on Baneling + Queens against Terran the early game. Midgame Roach/Ravagers might be much more fun to play and watch and less cheesy than they are now. This will bring terran mech play to the table in TvZ. The banshee & liberator will benefit from less strong hydralisks & queens. And many more positive effects will come from this e. g. in PvZ ground unit interaction. Next to Disruptor/Colossi interaction changes, with lessened Hydralisk protoss air and corruptors could be nerved a bit more. I suggested this already like ~4-6 years ago in a different context. I still feel like that would make a lot of sense to create a more natural progression through units like in Broodwar. These suggestions are so terrible, it's not even funny. Where to even begin... | ||
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
On October 30 2019 22:21 tigon_ridge wrote: These suggestions are so terrible, it's not even funny. Where to even begin... I don't think they are terrible, I like it. I would really like if zerg had acsess to ground anti air that isn't queen earlier and then nerfed elsewhere, mainly nerfing queen. This seems like a decent solution. At least faster hydras (that can't become better at anti air with upgrade perhaps) + nerfs elsewhere. | ||
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gTank
Austria2542 Posts
On October 30 2019 22:21 tigon_ridge wrote: These suggestions are so terrible, it's not even funny. Where to even begin... The trick is to check the username before you begin to read so you know what might come and can ignore it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On October 30 2019 22:21 tigon_ridge wrote: These suggestions are so terrible, it's not even funny. Where to even begin... They’re quite radical yes, but that aside I don’t get how they’re so terrible. Just like reworking warpgate, if you can rework Zerg so there’s more of a unit/droning element in the early game instead of having Queens be OP to offset their lack of early AA, the game is going to be better and less frustrating for many people. Both have been the case for a long while and so much is balanced around them so of course that’s not an easy task, but from a more fundamental standpoint is balancing around teleporting production and an almost hero-level defensive unit really a good foundation on which to build? | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On October 30 2019 21:33 Z3nith wrote: And fungal is a hell of a lot better than feedback. right but HTs can be turned into Archons and Storm only needs Templar Archives to be upgraded. for the other 2 Infestor abilities, you will also need a Hive. i'm not necessarily opposed to this change, i just think it's interesting they would go about it that way | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I still think that the real problem about queens and creep spread is the energy usage being as onesided as it is. Your extra queens simply will use all their energy for creep basically, or close to it. If we want to make it harder for zerg to get to the state where the whole map is in creep and toss/terran denying any creep doesn't have any real effect, then we have to do something about either a) making it so zerg cannot build as many queens or b) make it so these queens have to use more energy on other things or c) make it so you have to use more energy for the same effect. a) is more about the economy and thus probably not something we really wanna change, b) is the more realistic approach one could make work through a multitude of changes. For example remove the queen autoattack and give it something simlar to the oracle where attacking costs energy. Or making them less tanky so they need to use the healing ability more often, etc. c) would be any change to the numbers basically, radius change, needing more energy per tumor, whatever. I think i personally would go with a change in category b, simply because it would lead to more depth of queen usage. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On October 30 2019 16:27 MockHamill wrote: Design wise the new changes seems great. Balance wise I have no idea. I suspect it is almost impossible to know what the balance will be when you make so many changes at the same time. The only thing that bothers me is that Protoss will still have the ultimate Deathball and the best anti-deatball unit (the disruptor) at the same time. I wonder if mech will be extinct again in TvP again? No real counter to disruptors since they now outrange liberators, Tempest with 25 more health. 14 range instead of 15 does not matter much when you kite with storm support. Time warp now also affecting air units will make time/warmp HT really strong. Then again vikings are already quite useless vs Protoss if the go air/ht so maybe this will not change much in practice. The changes to Blue Flame and Charge means that mid game hellbat/tank pushes are going to be less weak to ICA since zealots will be a bit weaker to Hellbats. That being said I suspect nothing much will change and mech will be cyclone based stuff that you do to catch an opponent off guard and not a stable viable comp much like it is now. | ||
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