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On October 31 2019 19:39 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2019 18:54 stilt wrote:
They're trying to give the zerg a chance to fight air without free units, too bad the best ground AA units we have is the hydras x)
Seriously, skytoss will dominate so hard now and as Serral pointed out, what is the supposed counter to libe/thors now? Roach/ravagers/sh ?
Edit : the zelote change is the most hardcore shit I ever heard since 2010 for god sake, it cuts every retreat option for the zerg and generate a super strong and safe harass, just wow. Fungal, Vipers, Queens, Hydras, Spores. I think Zerg will be fine.
It's like forgetting 7 years of starcraft where Zerg has always some trouble to fight skytoss (if not saying it was impossible for some area). Even in LOTV, and that was the reason they introduce IT buffs.
And of course they won't withdraw the buffs received to compensate IT buffs (BC buffs, vikings buffs, carriers buffs). Ah yeah, they even buff void ray in the meantime...
And again a new upgrade for zerg... So 3 more upgrades for zerg ? It's hilarious, BC arrive in your base at 6 min, a ghost academy is done faster than a spine crawler but you need hive to research multiple upgrades for ultras/lurkers/crackling/infestor/nyndus.
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On November 01 2019 08:22 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 02:26 Pentarp wrote:On October 31 2019 19:52 stilt wrote:On October 31 2019 19:39 True_Spike wrote:On October 31 2019 18:54 stilt wrote:
They're trying to give the zerg a chance to fight air without free units, too bad the best ground AA units we have is the hydras x)
Seriously, skytoss will dominate so hard now and as Serral pointed out, what is the supposed counter to libe/thors now? Roach/ravagers/sh ?
Edit : the zelote change is the most hardcore shit I ever heard since 2010 for god sake, it cuts every retreat option for the zerg and generate a super strong and safe harass, just wow. Fungal, Vipers, Queens, Hydras, Spores. I think Zerg will be fine. Remember that liberators have lower range now. I do believe the new spell should be slightly more powerful (i.e .75% instead of 50%), since it's counterable. You're selling me that you're countering skytoss+ storm with these units ? X) Dunno if it's a troll or if you have no experience at all but it doesn't work, they are not beefy enough to endure protoss aoe while standing still, as Serral pointed out, corrupters/vipers will still be the way to go. . Not beefy enough? Well how about a new spell that reduces damage taken from air units? Also, welcome to the Terran experience of dealing with storms: Micro. Why are you ignoring all the Protoss firepower that comes from disruptor storm colossus immortal etc Tempests and carriers will still be able to pick away at Zerg thanks to range. But no longer can Zerg advance on a Protoss death ball. Also lol@ thinking only Terran micros vs storm. Zerg microing vs storm is 10x harder since their units are flimsier and there is not godly medivac to retreat to and heal everything up
Man are you complaining about Zerg being harder to play in THIS meta?
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On November 01 2019 09:07 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 08:22 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 02:26 Pentarp wrote:On October 31 2019 19:52 stilt wrote:On October 31 2019 19:39 True_Spike wrote:On October 31 2019 18:54 stilt wrote:
They're trying to give the zerg a chance to fight air without free units, too bad the best ground AA units we have is the hydras x)
Seriously, skytoss will dominate so hard now and as Serral pointed out, what is the supposed counter to libe/thors now? Roach/ravagers/sh ?
Edit : the zelote change is the most hardcore shit I ever heard since 2010 for god sake, it cuts every retreat option for the zerg and generate a super strong and safe harass, just wow. Fungal, Vipers, Queens, Hydras, Spores. I think Zerg will be fine. Remember that liberators have lower range now. I do believe the new spell should be slightly more powerful (i.e .75% instead of 50%), since it's counterable. You're selling me that you're countering skytoss+ storm with these units ? X) Dunno if it's a troll or if you have no experience at all but it doesn't work, they are not beefy enough to endure protoss aoe while standing still, as Serral pointed out, corrupters/vipers will still be the way to go. . Not beefy enough? Well how about a new spell that reduces damage taken from air units? Also, welcome to the Terran experience of dealing with storms: Micro. Why are you ignoring all the Protoss firepower that comes from disruptor storm colossus immortal etc Tempests and carriers will still be able to pick away at Zerg thanks to range. But no longer can Zerg advance on a Protoss death ball. Also lol@ thinking only Terran micros vs storm. Zerg microing vs storm is 10x harder since their units are flimsier and there is not godly medivac to retreat to and heal everything up Man are you complaining about Zerg being harder to play in THIS meta?
I'm not complaining about anything.
Youre acting like Zerg doesnt have to micro like Terran.
On the contrary Terran has the easiest micro out of the 3 races
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On November 01 2019 11:30 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 09:07 Pentarp wrote:On November 01 2019 08:22 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 02:26 Pentarp wrote:On October 31 2019 19:52 stilt wrote:On October 31 2019 19:39 True_Spike wrote:On October 31 2019 18:54 stilt wrote:
They're trying to give the zerg a chance to fight air without free units, too bad the best ground AA units we have is the hydras x)
Seriously, skytoss will dominate so hard now and as Serral pointed out, what is the supposed counter to libe/thors now? Roach/ravagers/sh ?
Edit : the zelote change is the most hardcore shit I ever heard since 2010 for god sake, it cuts every retreat option for the zerg and generate a super strong and safe harass, just wow. Fungal, Vipers, Queens, Hydras, Spores. I think Zerg will be fine. Remember that liberators have lower range now. I do believe the new spell should be slightly more powerful (i.e .75% instead of 50%), since it's counterable. You're selling me that you're countering skytoss+ storm with these units ? X) Dunno if it's a troll or if you have no experience at all but it doesn't work, they are not beefy enough to endure protoss aoe while standing still, as Serral pointed out, corrupters/vipers will still be the way to go. . Not beefy enough? Well how about a new spell that reduces damage taken from air units? Also, welcome to the Terran experience of dealing with storms: Micro. Why are you ignoring all the Protoss firepower that comes from disruptor storm colossus immortal etc Tempests and carriers will still be able to pick away at Zerg thanks to range. But no longer can Zerg advance on a Protoss death ball. Also lol@ thinking only Terran micros vs storm. Zerg microing vs storm is 10x harder since their units are flimsier and there is not godly medivac to retreat to and heal everything up Man are you complaining about Zerg being harder to play in THIS meta? I'm not complaining about anything. Youre acting like Zerg doesnt have to micro like Terran. On the contrary Terran has the easiest micro out of the 3 races
Yeah, quickfire spamming IT is really hard micro. Such good skill toi have.
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Shocked to see how many people think the removal of IT will make Carrier/storm OP again... Carriers are so much worse than they were when Carrier/templar was actually powerful. Zerg deal with that comp without IT all the time.
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On November 01 2019 13:32 JJH777 wrote:
Shocked to see how many people think the removal of IT will make Carrier/storm OP again... Carriers are so much worse than they were when Carrier/templar was actually powerful. Zerg deal with that comp without IT all the time.
Show me an example 
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On November 01 2019 13:32 JJH777 wrote:
Shocked to see how many people think the removal of IT will make Carrier/storm OP again... Carriers are so much worse than they were when Carrier/templar was actually powerful. Zerg deal with that comp without IT all the time.
All the time is quite hyperbolic but there are examples yes... Except in these examples you have a neural at 9 ranges or a BL who can target the ht from a larger range too which protects the vipers. Every tools zerg use has been nerfed. Maybe only the neural or bl range nerf getting removed will be enough but for now, it seems tough even if corrupteurs vipers will still be the way to go.
Well, I mentionned protoss but thors/liberators seem insane and probably stronger as it should be easier for T to reach this compo (while the P would have to work for it, zvp doesn't bother me that much, I was mainly reacting at the totally useless infestor spell) and such a skill it is to handle a compo with 2 units !
Not beefy enough? Well how about a new spell that reduces damage taken from air units?
Also, welcome to the Terran experience of dealing with storms: Micro
Each time I see such a post I am like "forgive them, they are in bronze league, they don't know what they are saying" x) Especially when a random T begins to brag about his micro, wtf dude, you really think top Z have bad micro ? Ok, let's say your point is full of bs and they actually know how to micro cuz there are too much examples of them doing so to refute it : What about all the protoss aoe I mentionned before, they suddenly don't exist anymore?
Oh, you wanna micro hydras vs storm/skytoss, good luck with that haha what a funny idea, hydras are way more clumsy than marines and don't shoot as fast, therefore, they lose more dps, lastly, they'll just leave the zones by doing so and get schred which is fine, that's the dynamic of the mu. And trying to balance Hydras to make them viables vs skytoss would be a terrible idea, design and balance wise.
Overall there are probably some ways to make lategame zvp/pvz better but that's surely not by making hydras/queens viable against skytoss, the core idea of the new spell is shitty. Everyone especially toss and terran are like "this is a step in the good direction" and I don't disagree overall, ITs removal is great but wait a bit when it will be buff to the point which hydras would deal with skytoss 
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The truth is, Zerg has been dominating the pro scene at the highest level for a long time, and it is time for a change. Every time there is a zerg-less final it is considered an upset.
Protoss players were afraid the emp upgrade would ruin the matchup, it turned out quite ok. The best Zergs will adapt, I am sure they are up to the task!
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So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
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They just gonna keep the observer nerf?
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The impossibility to neural the mothership is a very good change.
Other than that, I don't think the Zerg nerfs will significantly alter its dominance.
Sure it's a step in the right direction, but the actual ratio of Zerg tournaments win that really relied on 25 gaz or mass IT abuse is very low.
If no other nerfs get introduced, Zerg will most likely keep dominating, mark my words.
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On November 01 2019 21:28 gulii wrote:
So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
Why do people keep saying this is dark swarm?
Dark Swarm reduced 100% damage from ALL ranged attacks.
Microbial Shroud is only 50% damage reduction from air attacks.
Dark Swarm Lasted for like 40 seconds
This lasts for 11 seconds
Dark Swarm blows this out of the water. I'm not saying that they should turn this into Dark Swarm, but this is nothing like Dark Swarm.
Liberators will still OHKO lings and banes with proper upgrade and everything else on the ground will still fight ling bane the same.
The only difference now is that without infested terran, Zerg lost its ability to move into a protoss lategame deathball and, to a lesser extent, a Terran lategame position.
Hopefully this change doesnt go through.
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On November 01 2019 23:36 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 21:28 gulii wrote:
So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
The only difference now is that without infested terran, Zerg lost its ability to move into a protoss lategame deathball and, to a lesser extent, a Terran lategame position. Hopefully this change doesnt go through.
The definition of a deathball is a very strong unit composition that can not lose a straight engagement and therefore has to be outmanoeuvered.
Therefore, this notion loses all its meaning if it can get wrecked by infested terrans spam.
Same logic applies to a fortified late game Terran position.
If it can get wrecked by a simple frontal attack, the notion loses all its meaning.
By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition.
Hope to be wrong, time will tell.
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To me, there's nothing wrong with Zerg being unable to defeat the endgame airtoss army. To me, that's as intended. Zerg's supposed to be about outmanouvering the opponent and using their superior mobility to force advantageous engagements. Another advantage of Zerg is the instant remaxing.The fact that in its current state Zerg can defeat Protoss in a late game army battle straight up is a massive issue and I honestly can't believe so many people think that it's anything even close to fine. If Protoss after these changes is actually going to be able to build a nearly unbeatable army, the matchup will become much better.
I've always been a Zerg player in both SCBW and SC2, by the way.
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On November 01 2019 23:54 sirok_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 23:36 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 21:28 gulii wrote:
So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
The only difference now is that without infested terran, Zerg lost its ability to move into a protoss lategame deathball and, to a lesser extent, a Terran lategame position. Hopefully this change doesnt go through. The definition of a deathball is a very strong unit composition that can not lose a straight engagement and therefore has to be outmanoeuvered. Therefore, this notion loses all its meaning if it can get wrecked by infested terrans spam. Same logic applies to a fortified late game Terran position. If it can get wrecked by a simple frontal attack, the notion loses all its meaning. By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition. Hope to be wrong, time will tell.
You are just arguing semantics here.
I wouldnt even say a Deathball has to be invincible in a straight up engagement. Nor a fortified terran position unbreakable. BTW BL infestor was a deathball too.
What do you want Zerg to do?
If you think all of those things you listed will help Zerg against lategame skytoss deathballs and Terran positions with ghost thor lib idk what to tell you. They are nowhere near as cost effective as the Terran and Protoss lategame comps. That's why IT existed in the first place.
Infested Terrans were in the game for a reason. I absolutely agree that there were points throughout the game's history in which they were broken. I have been incessantly posting over the past several months that protoss is completely helpless against Zerg in the lategame. But, design wise, they were the Zerg's feature that allowed them to at least compete with Protoss and Terran lategame comps.
You can argue that the design is so bad that they have to be removed from the game, but the compensation has to be proportional so that Zerg does not become completely outgunned in the lategame. In this balance proposal, a huge dynamic is being completely turned on its head. The equalizers - infestors and brood lords - are getting very heavy nerfs. Meanwhile Void rays and mothership are getting buffs, thors are getting buffed, and the ghost just got buffed. A 10 range lurker and a relatively weak spell like Microbial Shroud is not enough compensation. The numbers simply don't add up. Protoss is now trading energy (storm) for expensive hydralisks instead of energy costing infested terrans. There is nothing to defend brood lords thanks to time warp....etc
and yes. time will tell
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I really like the thinking behind the revision to the adept - a killer ambush attack, instead of a frontline warrior muscling in on the zealot.
I have no idea if the numbers will work out in the wider scheme of balance, but I hope it will. Even if this means we see it used less in the later phases of the game, I'd still be okay with it.
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On November 02 2019 00:27 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2019 23:54 sirok_ wrote:On November 01 2019 23:36 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 21:28 gulii wrote:
So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
The only difference now is that without infested terran, Zerg lost its ability to move into a protoss lategame deathball and, to a lesser extent, a Terran lategame position. Hopefully this change doesnt go through. The definition of a deathball is a very strong unit composition that can not lose a straight engagement and therefore has to be outmanoeuvered. Therefore, this notion loses all its meaning if it can get wrecked by infested terrans spam. Same logic applies to a fortified late game Terran position. If it can get wrecked by a simple frontal attack, the notion loses all its meaning. By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition. Hope to be wrong, time will tell. You are just arguing semantics here. I wouldnt even say a Deathball has to be invincible in a straight up engagement. Nor a fortified terran position unbreakable. BTW BL infestor was a deathball too. What do you want Zerg to do? If you think all of those things you listed will help Zerg against lategame skytoss deathballs and Terran positions with ghost thor lib idk what to tell you. They are nowhere near as cost effective as the Terran and Protoss lategame comps. That's why IT existed in the first place. Infested Terrans were in the game for a reason. I absolutely agree that there were points throughout the game's history in which they were broken. I have been incessantly posting over the past several months that protoss is completely helpless against Zerg in the lategame. But, design wise, they were the Zerg's feature that allowed them to at least compete with Protoss and Terran lategame comps. You can argue that the design is so bad that they have to be removed from the game, but the compensation has to be proportional so that Zerg does not become completely outgunned in the lategame. In this balance proposal, a huge dynamic is being completely turned on its head. The equalizers - infestors and brood lords - are getting very heavy nerfs. Meanwhile Void rays and mothership are getting buffs, thors are getting buffed, and the ghost just got buffed. A 10 range lurker and a relatively weak spell like Microbial Shroud is not enough compensation. The numbers simply don't add up. Protoss is now trading energy (storm) for expensive hydralisks instead of energy costing infested terrans. There is nothing to defend brood lords thanks to time warp....etc and yes. time will tell
Something I think a lot of people are overlooking is that Z are going be making many more Hydras in the MU. Hydras trade very well against P air in lower numbers. With microbial swarm, they'll trade really well against P air in medium numbers too.
Since there will just be more hydras in the matchup in general, the transition to air for P won't be as easy, so it'll take longer to get the number of air units needed to get the armada.
In Broodwar, if the P got to the super late game on even economy, it was really really difficult for the Z to win. Their spells didn't do anything against archons, dark archons, or reavers. But it was still a really excellent matchup.
Personally, I still wouldn't mind seeing higher collision on air units in general though. I don't want air to be my only lategame option as P.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
I’d like air units to have higher collision too, can be a bit ridiculous how the air balls clump.
Ground units have to circumvent the terrain in ways air units obviously don’t have to, so maybe ground to air would be made better by having air balls and their firepower less concentrated.
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On November 02 2019 01:55 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 00:27 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 23:54 sirok_ wrote:On November 01 2019 23:36 BerserkSword wrote:On November 01 2019 21:28 gulii wrote:
So they gave zerg dark swarm again. Pretty nice.
Those ling bane on creep gonna melt stuff
with that new spell.
Liberation zone bye bye.
The only difference now is that without infested terran, Zerg lost its ability to move into a protoss lategame deathball and, to a lesser extent, a Terran lategame position. Hopefully this change doesnt go through. The definition of a deathball is a very strong unit composition that can not lose a straight engagement and therefore has to be outmanoeuvered. Therefore, this notion loses all its meaning if it can get wrecked by infested terrans spam. Same logic applies to a fortified late game Terran position. If it can get wrecked by a simple frontal attack, the notion loses all its meaning. By the way, I think abduct, parasiting bombs, locusts, mass moving spores, queens heal, will still dominate late-game by being more cost-effective than any T/P composition. Hope to be wrong, time will tell. You are just arguing semantics here. I wouldnt even say a Deathball has to be invincible in a straight up engagement. Nor a fortified terran position unbreakable. BTW BL infestor was a deathball too. What do you want Zerg to do? If you think all of those things you listed will help Zerg against lategame skytoss deathballs and Terran positions with ghost thor lib idk what to tell you. They are nowhere near as cost effective as the Terran and Protoss lategame comps. That's why IT existed in the first place. Infested Terrans were in the game for a reason. I absolutely agree that there were points throughout the game's history in which they were broken. I have been incessantly posting over the past several months that protoss is completely helpless against Zerg in the lategame. But, design wise, they were the Zerg's feature that allowed them to at least compete with Protoss and Terran lategame comps. You can argue that the design is so bad that they have to be removed from the game, but the compensation has to be proportional so that Zerg does not become completely outgunned in the lategame. In this balance proposal, a huge dynamic is being completely turned on its head. The equalizers - infestors and brood lords - are getting very heavy nerfs. Meanwhile Void rays and mothership are getting buffs, thors are getting buffed, and the ghost just got buffed. A 10 range lurker and a relatively weak spell like Microbial Shroud is not enough compensation. The numbers simply don't add up. Protoss is now trading energy (storm) for expensive hydralisks instead of energy costing infested terrans. There is nothing to defend brood lords thanks to time warp....etc and yes. time will tell Something I think a lot of people are overlooking is that Z are going be making many more Hydras in the MU. Hydras trade very well against P air in lower numbers. With microbial swarm, they'll trade really well against P air in medium numbers too. Since there will just be more hydras in the matchup in general, the transition to air for P won't be as easy, so it'll take longer to get the number of air units needed to get the armada. In Broodwar, if the P got to the super late game on even economy, it was really really difficult for the Z to win. Their spells didn't do anything against archons, dark archons, or reavers. But it was still a really excellent matchup. Personally, I still wouldn't mind seeing higher collision on air units in general though. I don't want air to be my only lategame option as P.
Hydras would be fine if the game were played in monobattles, where hydras just had to stand and fight protoss air units. The game doesnt work that way though. Hydras have to attempt to combat protoss air units under fire from Protoss' unmatched AOE and hydras are outranged by basically everything. This is the reason infested terran, as a concept, existed. Without IT zerg units would just melt and the Zerg would go broke trying to touch the protoss death fleet.
Microbial Shroud does not solve any of these problems, as the danger to hydras doesnt come from the low dps tempest or the carrier interceptor. It comes from storm, disruptor, etc , all of which do not care about microbial shroud.
Brood War is irrelevant to this game. Different games and all.
Air is the only lategame option for P as long as lurkers and broodlords have siege range. Only way for ground toss to be viable vs zerg is to do something absurdly broken like give immortals an air attack and siege range.
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[B]On November 02 2019 02:47 BerserkSword wrote:
Air is the only lategame option for P as long as lurkers and broodlords have siege range. Only way for ground toss to be viable vs zerg is to do something absurdly broken like give immortals an air attack and siege range.
Let blink DTs blink straight up and hit air units. Huge flavor win.
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EPT
