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I second the user that said Neural Parasite should be removed. I think its too problematic. Also, I still think Vipers should yeet instead of yoink. As it stands, both of those spells give too much power to energy usage for a race that is supposed to win with production.
I like the microbial swarm idea alot, even if it means the infestor is now officially an sc2 defiler. I hope they either strengthen it or move it to lair tech. Removing Infested Terran should have been done when Swarm Hosts were introduced. I'm glad they are finally getting around to it and are giving the infestor a better niche. It would be cool to see another obscure trick up thr infestor's sleeve.. something like the BW queen's ability to infest command centers. Maybe they could finish off severely damaged buildings or spread creep around themselves or something creative like that.
Anyway, three cheers to Blizzard for continuing to invest in this game like this in order to keep things fresh. So hype for more Starcraft in 2020!!
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It's nice to see that they are trying out solutions to mass infestor but tbh nydus/SH is the biggest problem.
Also:
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When will new patch be applied?
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
It’s a pity they didn’t nerf SH/Nydus a bit before Blizzcon, it’s ok as an option but it’s way too low risk high reward as it is and too tough to defend while doing pressure yourself.
Perhaps the swarm’s players have it right in not fully abusing some of their race’s strongest styles until it’s too close to Blizzcon for Blizz to nerf, us Protoss could learn something from that!
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France12911 Posts
On November 02 2019 21:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
It’s a pity they didn’t nerf SH/Nydus a bit before Blizzcon, it’s ok as an option but it’s way too low risk high reward as it is and too tough to defend while doing pressure yourself.
Perhaps the swarm’s players have it right in not fully abusing some of their race’s strongest styles until it’s too close to Blizzcon for Blizz to nerf, us Protoss could learn something from that!
I swear it was almost like "oh I might be losing the series... time to unleash the strat  " especially Reynor vs Trap g5. Same for Elazer but with bl/infestor instead of swarmhost/nydus.
A revert to the baneling hp buff might be a good idea as well. There are so many things that seem / are strong atm that it's a bit hard to know what to tweak though (other than the obvious nydus and infestor tweaks that are already being looked at)
I have hope in blizzard though, I think they'll manage to do a good job for 2020 season, because people have been very vocal and it showed in the games.
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I remember the first time when they introduced Swarm Host, the locusts were supposed to be ground units traveling on ground. I was thinking maybe they should really start that way, and flying locust could be a Hive upgrade? Im really sick of watching all those nexus snipes with the locusts, it basically requires really a very small effort from the zerg side. Combined with nydus CD increase that should be enough imho.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 02 2019 21:36 kajtarp wrote:
I remember the first time when they introduced Swarm Host, the locusts were supposed to be ground units traveling on ground. I was thinking maybe they should really start that way, and flying locust could be a Hive upgrade? Im really sick of watching all those nexus snipes with the locusts, it basically requires really a very small effort from the zerg side. Combined with nydus CD increase that should be enough imho.
Plus the load/unload speed. There are plenty of games where a Protoss catches the swarm hosts before they retreat down the worm. With even a slight increase to the load/unload rate a Protoss player could catch a few swarmhosts and whittle down their numbers if they’re being vigilant, which would definitely make a difference.
Generally the Zerg player currently builds the initial Swarmhost batch and that’s them for the game because they rarely lose any of the initial batch. Making them retreat a little slower and maybe lose a few here and there and the locust waves are either weakened, or Zerg’s transitions are weakened if they choose to rebuild swarmhosts.
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The swarm host and the nydus should have been removed with LotV. Instead they have been trying to make bad concepts integral parts of Zerg play.
Offensive warp in and recall have been bad concepts all along and they nydus is the same. Now that it is useable it shows.
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On November 02 2019 23:45 Big J wrote:
The swarm host and the nydus should have been removed with LotV. Instead they have been trying to make bad concepts integral parts of Zerg play.
Offensive warp in and recall have been bad concepts all along and they nydus is the same. Now that it is useable it shows.
Nydus has the potential to not be problematic, but the way it is implemented in SC2 makes it far too easy to be abused. If it was like how it is in BW, it would be a much different scenario, or even if it was slowed down a bunch.
As Snute said in that tweet, if they deal with the load/unload speed it would go a long way to solve the nydus issue. The current nydus load speed is 0.09, which means that a zerg can load 11 units per second into the nydus and with an unload speed of 0.18 they can unload 5-6 units per second. In these swarmhost/nydus scenarios, the zerg seldom seems to have more than about 20 swarmhosts, meaning once the locusts are launched, the opponent has at most about 2 seconds to pick off some of the swarmhosts before they have all safely retreated back into the worm. Because of this, the risk for the zerg is essentially eliminated. At worst, they might lose 1-2 swarmhosts if their opponent has units right nearby. The only other option is to snipe the worm itself while everything is unloaded, but there's only a window of a few seconds to do this between the swarmhosts starting to pop out, launching locusts, and retreating back in.
I remember when they first did these unload/load speed changes I was watching Zerg streamers like Vibe and a few others, and pretty much all of them said "this'll probably get nerfed, it's too good" but then it never did because it wasn't really abused in tournaments. Undoing these unload/load speed changes has seemed like a long time coming now.
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On November 03 2019 02:19 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2019 23:45 Big J wrote:
The swarm host and the nydus should have been removed with LotV. Instead they have been trying to make bad concepts integral parts of Zerg play.
Offensive warp in and recall have been bad concepts all along and they nydus is the same. Now that it is useable it shows. As Snute said in that tweet, if they deal with the load/unload speed it would go a long way to solve the nydus issue. The current nydus load speed is 0.09, which means that a zerg can load 11 units per second into the nydus and with an unload speed of 0.18 they can unload 5-6 units per second. In these swarmhost/nydus scenarios, the zerg seldom seems to have more than about 20 swarmhosts, meaning once the locusts are launched, the opponent has at most about 2 seconds to pick off some of the swarmhosts before they have all safely retreated back into the worm. Because of this, the risk for the zerg is essentially eliminated. At worst, they might lose 1-2 swarmhosts if their opponent has units right nearby. The only other option is to snipe the worm itself while everything is unloaded, but there's only a window of a few seconds to do this between the swarmhosts starting to pop out, launching locusts, and retreating back in. I remember when they first did these unload/load speed changes I was watching Zerg streamers like Vibe and a few others, and pretty much all of them said "this'll probably get nerfed, it's too good" but then it never did because it wasn't really abused in tournaments. Undoing these unload/load speed changes has seemed like a long time coming now.
The most unbelievable thing about it is that they actually nerfed SH movement speed off creep because they were to difficult to catch for the opponent and the locust waves were thus too low-risk for the zerg compared to how much damage a wave of locusts do. And then they introduce this version of Nydus where there is virtually no risk at all in using SH. What the hell?!
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People pretending just making the nydus head cost more isn't the easiest and best change.
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On November 03 2019 03:08 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
People pretending just making the nydus head cost more isn't the easiest and best change.
Yes. 100/100 would make Nydus spam have a real drawback.
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On November 03 2019 02:29 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2019 02:19 Ben... wrote:On November 02 2019 23:45 Big J wrote:
The swarm host and the nydus should have been removed with LotV. Instead they have been trying to make bad concepts integral parts of Zerg play.
Offensive warp in and recall have been bad concepts all along and they nydus is the same. Now that it is useable it shows. As Snute said in that tweet, if they deal with the load/unload speed it would go a long way to solve the nydus issue. The current nydus load speed is 0.09, which means that a zerg can load 11 units per second into the nydus and with an unload speed of 0.18 they can unload 5-6 units per second. In these swarmhost/nydus scenarios, the zerg seldom seems to have more than about 20 swarmhosts, meaning once the locusts are launched, the opponent has at most about 2 seconds to pick off some of the swarmhosts before they have all safely retreated back into the worm. Because of this, the risk for the zerg is essentially eliminated. At worst, they might lose 1-2 swarmhosts if their opponent has units right nearby. The only other option is to snipe the worm itself while everything is unloaded, but there's only a window of a few seconds to do this between the swarmhosts starting to pop out, launching locusts, and retreating back in. I remember when they first did these unload/load speed changes I was watching Zerg streamers like Vibe and a few others, and pretty much all of them said "this'll probably get nerfed, it's too good" but then it never did because it wasn't really abused in tournaments. Undoing these unload/load speed changes has seemed like a long time coming now. The most unbelievable thing about it is that they actually nerfed SH movement speed off creep because they were to difficult to catch for the opponent and the locust waves were thus too low-risk for the zerg compared to how much damage a wave of locusts do. And then they introduce this version of Nydus where there is virtually no risk at all in using SH. What the hell?!
There were a lot of changes done in the last big big patch, and the couple patches following, that didn't seem fully thought through. Nydus was just one of them. The changes to the infestor are probably the most obvious (they made them smaller, and buffed the anti-air of infested terrans substantially). The feedback nerf was done with good intent but had a much bigger impact than they seemed to think it would, especially when paired with the infestor changes. The tempest speed/health change was, like the nydus changes, obviously too much, but they ended up trying to split the difference in a later patch and we were left with a tempest wasn't crazy fast, but still had much less health. Same with the carrier changes. It made sense to change the carrier because it was too strong but nerfing it heavily while also buffing zerg anti-air with infested terrans was never going to end well.
The terran changes were mostly the only good changes. The BC became a much more consistent unit to use in terms of damage, the thor changes seemed smart, and the changes to cyclones opened up an entire new playstyle. The recall change was the other good change that comes to mind.
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Northern Ireland26318 Posts
On November 03 2019 03:08 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
People pretending just making the nydus head cost more isn't the easiest and best change.
Zerg can easily afford that, at least in how they’re using them in ZvP. It would definitely help in ZvZ though where they really are spammed out a lot.
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Was there a "Starcraft What's Next" panel at this year's Blizzcon? i have not been able to find it.
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As simple idea i was thinking about :
- remove the ability of creep tumors to spam one other tumors
- decrease the cost of spawm creep tumors from queen from 25 to 15
AND LITTLE BIT MORE SURVIVAL / BEEFY
- increase a little bit queen speed on creep (3.5 to 3.8)
- increase heallth relatively to decrease damage
This change is drastic change but not so drastic afterall. Of course it ask to Zerg players to adapt and have a more deep gameplay (as terran difficulty, it could be very very interessant game in lower league).. the mechanics of spread creep tumors is too machine-like. With this change the zerg has to care about protect his queens and expand creep with limited options.
tbh this is not my idea, but i think it s better than my first two ideas :
- remove invisibility
- add cooldowns
What do you think about it ?
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On November 03 2019 05:02 Vision_ wrote:
As simple idea i was thinking about :
- remove the ability of creep tumors to spam one other tumors
- decrease the cost of spawm creep tumors from queen from 25 to 15
AND LITTLE BIT MORE SURVIVAL / BEEFY
- increase a little bit queen speed on creep (3.5 to 3.8)
- increase heallth relatively to decrease damage
This change is drastic change but not so drastic afterall. Of course it ask to Zerg players to adapt and have a more deep gameplay (as terran difficulty, it could be very very interessant game in lower league).. the mechanics of spread creep tumors is too machine-like. With this change the zerg has to care about protect his queens and expand creep with limited options.
tbh this is not my idea, but i think it s better than my first two ideas :
- remove invisibility
- add cooldowns
What do you think about it ?
Increased queen speed would heavily affect harass defense. Medivacs are coming? No problem, just run over. They are leaving? Just chase and shoot down! Oracles dancing around? Go there and take it down! Hellions are racing around? Easy. Warp prism jumping between bases? Reapers? Shading adepts? Queens to the rescue.
It is good that you also suggested nerfing their DPS. That might balance out the speed boost.
Since the game is balanced with a vast creep spread, a removal of creep tumors' replication is a heavy blow. Players would need way more queens to effectively spread their creep. Additionally, creep spreading would become way ore taxing. Not only do you need the creep spread out, you need a queen present. That queen will either risk her life on the edge or be delayed by running from a safe zone. Either way, the zerg will need a lot more APM to spread (move queen back and forth/defend edge harass from opponent).
Tumors need the invisibility to survive. A few stalkers/marines at the edge would kill all tumors if they were visible. They just have to stay by the edge of creep.
What do you mean by "add cooldowns"? Active crep tumors have got a cooldown already.
Queens are restricted by energy for their 3 abilities, and can therefore not do everything at the same time. Balance team has made a stance against cooldown on larvae in the roundabout way of making spawn larvae stackable/queuable. A cooldown on the hatchery was removed, that was - in most cases - comparable to a cooldown on a single queens spawn larvae. It would not be consistent with other units should the queen have 2 energy abilities and 1 cooldown ability. Either everything is energy, or nothing is energy.
Personally, I think a vision nerf for inactive tumors would be interesting. The creep spread by a hatchery in farther out than its vision. I think that could be worth testing for inactive tumors.
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On November 03 2019 03:08 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
People pretending just making the nydus head cost more isn't the easiest and best change.
That's not the best change at all:
1.) One of the most dangerous periods for nydus is in the extreme late game. When zerg often has thousands of minerals and gas.
2.) This does little to reduce the constant nydus threat. It makes it slightly more risky, but it still has the same problem of: you have to somehow have vision of every single location within swarmhost range of your base, all at the same time, with the ability to have units gets there in time regardless of where it is placed.
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On November 03 2019 05:35 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2019 05:02 Vision_ wrote:
As simple idea i was thinking about :
- remove the ability of creep tumors to spam one other tumors
- decrease the cost of spawm creep tumors from queen from 25 to 15
AND LITTLE BIT MORE SURVIVAL / BEEFY
- increase a little bit queen speed on creep (3.5 to 3.8)
- increase heallth relatively to decrease damage
This change is drastic change but not so drastic afterall. Of course it ask to Zerg players to adapt and have a more deep gameplay (as terran difficulty, it could be very very interessant game in lower league).. the mechanics of spread creep tumors is too machine-like. With this change the zerg has to care about protect his queens and expand creep with limited options.
tbh this is not my idea, but i think it s better than my first two ideas :
- remove invisibility
- add cooldowns
What do you think about it ? Increased queen speed would heavily affect harass defense. Medivacs are coming? No problem, just run over. They are leaving? Just chase and shoot down! Oracles dancing around? Go there and take it down! Hellions are racing around? Easy. Warp prism jumping between bases? Reapers? Shading adepts? Queens to the rescue. It is good that you also suggested nerfing their DPS. That might balance out the speed boost.
Of course, i know Queens are probably the best Zerg units.
On November 03 2019 05:35 Drfilip wrote:
Since the game is balanced with a vast creep spread, a removal of creep tumors' replication is a heavy blow. Players would need way more queens to effectively spread their creep. Additionally, creep spreading would become way ore taxing. Not only do you need the creep spread out, you need a queen present. That queen will either risk her life on the edge or be delayed by running from a safe zone. Either way, the zerg will need a lot more APM to spread (move queen back and forth/defend edge harass from opponent).
That s the point,
For now Zergs can spread their creep without take any risk, especially unfair when you know their creep tumors are invisible !!! I think your analysis is great cause the queen have now to go near the front lline and back, what s a part of gain territory or not. In other terms, creep doesn t expand automatically (i.E with machine-like APM).. It s not probably a problm of APM, pros have a lots of APM...
I ve just done a test with editor and it looks great, i put the queen speed (from 1.5 to 1.7 without calculate modifier creep), i ve decrease enregy from 25 to 15 and remove tumors replication. For now, 1.7 seems too fast maybe 1.6 or 1.57 looks OK.
For the energy, i know you love as me round number, maybe decrease to 18 or something like that.
One thing has to be changed more, it s the build construction time : it s actually 15 seconds, then you can decrease this parameter to 10 at least.
On November 03 2019 05:35 Drfilip wrote:
Tumors need the invisibility to survive. A few stalkers/marines at the edge would kill all tumors if they were visible. They just have to stay by the edge of creep.
What do you mean by "add cooldowns"? Active crep tumors have got a cooldown already.
Queens are restricted by energy for their 3 abilities, and can therefore not do everything at the same time. Balance team has made a stance against cooldown on larvae in the roundabout way of making spawn larvae stackable/queuable. A cooldown on the hatchery was removed, that was - in most cases - comparable to a cooldown on a single queens spawn larvae. It would not be consistent with other units should the queen have 2 energy abilities and 1 cooldown ability. Either everything is energy, or nothing is energy.
Personally, I think a vision nerf for inactive tumors would be interesting. The creep spread by a hatchery in farther out than its vision. I think that could be worth testing for inactive tumors.
It was my old ideas, and i think they are too drastic. Invisibillity tumors is a part inside the combat strategy against Zerg
Your idea is interesting, but i m not sure of this design gameplay..
I disagree first :
- on the part of the ergonomy and ease of minimap (holes appearring)
- the game isn t balance at all in very late game (We can consider Zerg already won if he controls more than half of the mines +1),
that s why i feel exciting with the last idea of my friend, cause Zerg don t take risk for now, and it s maybe what is killing the game. If you re adding a difficulty to the progression of creep in term of gameplay (without changing cost, cooldowns, ability power etc..), you ren t removing something, you re truely adding a new feature to the game.
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