EPTBlizz: Proposed changes for post-BlizzCon patch 2019 - Pag…
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pissinmyhand
5 Posts
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Rider1
Cuba2 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
Blizzard was doing really well, removing the MSC, making the game better, but the last few patch notes directly address none of the problems in the game and do odd things. Why are we nerfing Zealots and Adepts? Adepts were one of the the only things working versus Zerg in PvZ. Do Observers need to be slower? Do we really believe that 25 minerals and 25 gas is going to change the equation for Zerg players when deciding to go for Nydus or Overlord Speed? I think the answer is rhetorical, how many games did we see the Zerg winning by a few pairs of Zerglings in the Global Finals... And now take away a few of Zerglings and do any of the results change? Zerg is crushing Protoss right now, this would be like increasing the cost of Siege mode by 25/25 as a solution to the 1-1-1 when it was rampant in WOL. It would do nothing. 25/25 is nothing for a player on three bases, these guys were floating money while kill Protoss. Nydus Worms needs to go back to 100/100. And the Swarm Host... Locusts shouldn't fly. It is that simple. If they can't fly, then they become far easier to manage and then the Nydus isn't nearly as terrible. Maybe then, you don't even need to change the Nydus. This is sad. | ||
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Kertorak
125 Posts
So many tweaks and changes to the unit, removing a core spell doesn't make sense to me. Similar to completely removing damage from the raven's aamissile. (I know from 15 to 0, instead of 5 or a DoT of 10, or Damage in the end fix) ... This spell was a replacer for Seeker Missile, if you remember! So changing the missile was okay, but it allways was supposed to deal some damage. (not a game breaking damage indeed). Because there exist enough spell casters that do damage on top of the support - NAMELY the infestor OR feedback. My feedback, give the Terran a reason to build more than 1 raven if not for the matrix. - Also make it easier to target stuff with it, because reactionary targeting is much much worse in power and result, for instance vs burrowed infestors among other units.... Aswell easier to place turrets... in the middle of a huddled fight... with lots of quick units blocking the planned turret placement before the raven is in position... - I do not agree with making Matrix too "strong" at the cost of more energy. Who needs 11 seconds for SINGLE UNITS!??!!. AGAIN worse in power overall because starcraft is a game of numbers, not single powerful units. Don't need a longer more powerful debuff... That matrix was kind of fine! (A bit like the ghost in brood war!) Other changes were needed (somehow). - My third feebdack: Bring back Anti Missile Drone. Bring it as fourth spell. Make it weaker, make it the short version (but not too short,,, it's a reactive defensive thing afterall). I think it's nice strategic tool for Terran - perhaps rescuing that one unit that one medivac escaping tower shots, etc etc. Despite I never understood nerfing their duration, it's like the only spell where duration makes sense, because it's very reactive and defensive, but I see longer durations don't fit to LotV. However Give the raven some more options.Hey the Viper has 4 spells, too! And don't tell me getting full mana isn't a spell. The old raven served quite some options, while having a decent (actually very high) cost for a detector - but that's okay for having Scan. ~I only write this based on my in-game experience of how little ravens are used nowadays despite their big intentions..., except for the TvT "abuse".~ And the Swarm Host... Locusts shouldn't fly. It is that simple. If they can't fly, then they become far easier to manage and then the Nydus isn't nearly as terrible. Maybe then, you don't even need to change the Nydus. I think you didn't understands blizzard's core concept in Lotv of making the game "faster". If that didn't why did Jumping Battle Cruisers not convince you? You can't change their idea for a faster game (namely very overwhelming free units...at the cost of cooldown and "dead" supply. Yea I agree that concept sucks - I think everyone lost their expansion to a bunch of locusts at some point and thought "wtf", but apparently they were brave enough to put that into the live game, so that gives pretty clear idea of them), you CAN however give feedback of what doesn't work so well, or give ideas of how to improve it a bit. (aka balancing) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 04 2019 10:08 Kertorak wrote: I find ... the decision to remove a core concept and idea, and stuff that exists since WoL namely the (Infested Terran)... ugly. So many tweaks and changes to the unit, removing a core spell doesn't make sense to me. Similar to removing seeker missile, or completely removing damage from the raven's aamissile. (I know from 15 to 0, instead of 5 or a DoT of 10, or Damage in the end fix) ... because there exist enough spell casters that do damage on top of the support - NAMELY the infestor OR feedback. My feedback, give the Terran a reason to build more than 1 raven if not for the matrix. Also make it easier to target stuff with it, because reactionary targeting is much much worse in power and result, for instance vs burrowed infestors among other units.... I do not agree with making Matrix too "strong" at the cost of more energy. AGAIN worse in power overall because starcraft is a game of numbers, not single powerful units. Don't need a longer more powerful debuff... That matrix was kind of fine! Other changes were needed (somehow). My third feebdack: Bring back Anti Missile Drone. Bring it as fourth spell. Make it weaker, make it the short version (but not too short,,, it's a reactive defensive thing afterall). BUT give it back. Give the raven some more options.Hey the Viper has 4 spells, too! And don't tell me getting full mana isn't a spell. The old raven served quite some options, while having a decent (actually very high) cost for a detector - but that's okay for having Scan. Who cares if it’s core or not, if it’s a good change, or a bad one let’s judge on what we see. The mothership core was core to Protoss for ages and its removal was a great change. I’d rather the Raven exist as it is, where one or two male your army better in a support capacity, than have incentive for spamming Ravens be there. I like spellcasters being support units that don’t scale well in big numbers, which has been one of the issues with the Infestor forever | ||
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Kertorak
125 Posts
The seeker missile into eventual aa missile changes were always kind of fine, because that spell never did its job. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On November 04 2019 06:32 BronzeKnee wrote: What the hell is going on? Blizzard was doing really well, removing the MSC, making the game better, but the last few patch notes directly address none of the problems in the game and do odd things. Why are we nerfing Zealots and Adepts? Adepts were one of the the only things working versus Zerg in PvZ. Do Observers need to be slower? Do we really believe that 25 minerals and 25 gas is going to change the equation for Zerg players when deciding to go for Nydus or Overlord Speed? I think the answer is rhetorical, how many games did we see the Zerg winning by a few pairs of Zerglings in the Global Finals... And now take away a few of Zerglings and do any of the results change? Zerg is crushing Protoss right now, this would be like increasing the cost of Siege mode by 25/25 as a solution to the 1-1-1 when it was rampant in WOL. It would do nothing. 25/25 is nothing for a player on three bases, these guys were floating money while kill Protoss. Nydus Worms needs to go back to 100/100. And the Swarm Host... Locusts shouldn't fly. It is that simple. If they can't fly, then they become far easier to manage and then the Nydus isn't nearly as terrible. Maybe then, you don't even need to change the Nydus. This is sad. If all 3 nydus nerfs go through (which they should), then yes 75/75 is most likely fine. I'm a protoss player and even I can see how much of an impact the other nydus nerfs will make. Not to mention, if the current iteration of the patch notes go through, Protoss will be stronger than Zerg in the late game lol so it's kinda stupid to cherrypick random patch changes and put them in with the current game. Shows your obvious bias and inability to actually look at the game properly, if you even play it in the first place. As for Overlord speed, 25/25 is a big deal in the early game. Yes, it literally changes the equation for zerg players when deciding to go overlord speed. Your hypothethical zergling crap is so useless, overlord speed costs gas (+hatchery time) at a time of the game where zerg doesn't want to be mining gas and it has/always will have genuine impact on the zerg economy. It's not a big enough change on its own to change PvZ, but coupled with other changes, it is significant (again with your random cherry picking of patch notes when they're proposing that infestors will literally not have infested terrans anymore). Btw, saying 25/25 is nothing for a player on three bases is incredibly misleading. If you're getting overlord speed on an actual 3 base economy, then that has never been an issue in any matchup. We are talking about overlord speed OPENING, which obviously doesn't even have the natural fully saturated by the time it starts, let alone saturation on a third base. Again, obvious bias that ruins any merit of anything you have to say. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
There are some possible fixes for the Swarm Host abuse: 1. Significantly increase the rate the timer runs out while flying. This makes them nearly unaffected for proper fights, but will significantly decrease their effectiveness from sniping buildings. 2. Lower their armor by a massive amount(-30 or something) while flying. This would allow Protoss to have some possible counterplay with Phoenix for instance. 3. 2 seconds after landing, lower their attack rate by 50%. This would allow them to still be a powerful initial force against a full army, but would significantly decrease their capabilities for destroying buildings over an extended duration. It also would better enable a large army to fight back without losing everything to Locusts. All in all, Blizzard's changes won't be nearly enough and they also mostly miss the mark. As usual. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On November 04 2019 19:08 Shikyo wrote: In my opinion, these Nydus changes won't be enough. The problem is Swarm Hosts, or more specifically Locusts. The biggest issue is that these units can snipe a Nexus or a set of production for free, and defending against that is almost impossible. The Locusts also are so destructive and powerful that even the Swarm Hosts' supposed weakness of downtime doesn't really come into play - the first wave will win the fight for you. There are some possible fixes for the Swarm Host abuse: 1. Significantly increase the rate the timer runs out while flying. This makes them nearly unaffected for proper fights, but will significantly decrease their effectiveness from sniping buildings. 2. Lower their armor by a massive amount(-30 or something) while flying. This would allow Protoss to have some possible counterplay with Phoenix for instance. 3. 2 seconds after landing, lower their attack rate by 50%. This would allow them to still be a powerful initial force against a full army, but would significantly decrease their capabilities for destroying buildings over an extended duration. It also would better enable a large army to fight back without losing everything to Locusts. All in all, Blizzard's changes won't be nearly enough and they also mostly miss the mark. As usual. Swarm host/ravager was a common way to play against mech and protoss before but it wasnt' nearly as oppressive as it is with the nydus. | ||
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SparrowSC
4 Posts
I mean with biles, disruptors, storms, etc, tanks bio have no mobility against. And nerfing a bit the queen, less HP, less damages, less range, no more injection stack, something to add difficulties to zerg in the early game, and reducing the potential macro advantages they got atm? Maybe those ideas are dumb, I don't know, I like the actual changes, but it misses something in my opinion. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 04 2019 19:08 Shikyo wrote: In my opinion, these Nydus changes won't be enough. The problem is Swarm Hosts, or more specifically Locusts. The biggest issue is that these units can snipe a Nexus or a set of production for free, and defending against that is almost impossible. The Locusts also are so destructive and powerful that even the Swarm Hosts' supposed weakness of downtime doesn't really come into play - the first wave will win the fight for you. There are some possible fixes for the Swarm Host abuse: 1. Significantly increase the rate the timer runs out while flying. This makes them nearly unaffected for proper fights, but will significantly decrease their effectiveness from sniping buildings. 2. Lower their armor by a massive amount(-30 or something) while flying. This would allow Protoss to have some possible counterplay with Phoenix for instance. 3. 2 seconds after landing, lower their attack rate by 50%. This would allow them to still be a powerful initial force against a full army, but would significantly decrease their capabilities for destroying buildings over an extended duration. It also would better enable a large army to fight back without losing everything to Locusts. All in all, Blizzard's changes won't be nearly enough and they also mostly miss the mark. As usual. I like these ideas in how they pertain to SH and the Nydus in combination, especially the second one. Phoenixes or even stalkers could snipe a few locusts and make defending more doable. I do think that in combination they would make the Swarmhost a little too useless to be used in any other scenario other than popping out of nyduses though. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On November 04 2019 21:47 SparrowSC wrote: Can't they change the boost medivac upgrade with a new one ? Like +2 supply cargo, and authorize the tankivac ? I mean with biles, disruptors, storms, etc, tanks bio have no mobility against. And nerfing a bit the queen, less HP, less damages, less range, no more injection stack, something to add difficulties to zerg in the early game, and reducing the potential macro advantages they got atm? Maybe those ideas are dumb, I don't know, I like the actual changes, but it misses something in my opinion. Inject stacking was added because top zergs were injecting and a-moving more than anything else and whenever somebody got the great idea to switch to the players view it was a shit show. Most noticable it was during the great age of soO where he many times skipped in the middle of the fight to inject because having larvae was more important than the battle itself. The ideal situation is to remove the queen, or at least remove some of her role, but that would require redesign of Zerg and I don't think this is happening, ever. | ||
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plainsane
Germany98 Posts
On November 04 2019 19:08 Shikyo wrote: In my opinion, these Nydus changes won't be enough. The problem is Swarm Hosts, or more specifically Locusts. The biggest issue is that these units can snipe a Nexus or a set of production for free, and defending against that is almost impossible. The Locusts also are so destructive and powerful that even the Swarm Hosts' supposed weakness of downtime doesn't really come into play - the first wave will win the fight for you. There are some possible fixes for the Swarm Host abuse: 1. Significantly increase the rate the timer runs out while flying. This makes them nearly unaffected for proper fights, but will significantly decrease their effectiveness from sniping buildings. 2. Lower their armor by a massive amount(-30 or something) while flying. This would allow Protoss to have some possible counterplay with Phoenix for instance. 3. 2 seconds after landing, lower their attack rate by 50%. This would allow them to still be a powerful initial force against a full army, but would significantly decrease their capabilities for destroying buildings over an extended duration. It also would better enable a large army to fight back without losing everything to Locusts. All in all, Blizzard's changes won't be nearly enough and they also mostly miss the mark. As usual. Approaching it from a more theoretical perspective, I would say that SH/Nydus plays are medium risk, high reward. So I think most would agree that we need to either increase the risk or lower the reward. Or a little bit of both. We shouldn't forget that Swarm Hosts are quite an investment (100/75 and 3 supply) already and are totally useless and defenseless for 43s as soon as they spawned the locusts. Plus you may not get the locusts off everytime it comes off cooldown when you are out of position or you need to save it for an upcoming battle. And enemy Units can just run away. At the same time, locusts are slow and have short range, but have huge dps output. So without a Nydus, the swarm hosts are high risk, high reward already. It is the combination with Nydus that the risk is lowered to medium, so as long as you get a Nydus up you are basically 100% certain to get out, spawn locusts and pop back in. So increasing the risk of losing the SH during retreat or while popping out would be a good way, which is in the patch notes already (longer delays, and not more Queueing). Your proposals lower the reward portion, which would be viable of course, but is less appealing from a player/spectator viewpoint. But again that may just be my personal preference. Also the Nydus change also affects roach/queen/nydus plays which is a nice side effect. TL;DR Nerf the Nydus, not the Swarm Host | ||
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661
71 Posts
I think I’m done with this game, such an incompetent balance team. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote: So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz! I think I’m done with this game, such an incompetent balance team. Iconic for all the wrong reasons though. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1186 Posts
On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote: So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz! I think I’m done with this game, such an incompetent balance team. Come to BoodWar - we got balance  | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Trade mild imbalance for complete and total unresponsiveness | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1186 Posts
On November 05 2019 21:43 InfCereal wrote: Trade mild imbalance for complete and total unresponsiveness Nah, you just need to learn how to use each unit. And that can be challenging for sure. - definitely more than F2, attack move. Just don't want to continue with any nosense - I traded SC2 for BW about two years ago and it is one of my best decisions in my 'virtual life'. Nobody said 'change is easy'. This is the purpose of the changes - to improve, not to be easy. Sometimes downgrading is an improvement. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
All Protoss KSL S3 Ro4 disagrees | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States741 Posts
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