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On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above?
Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though.
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On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though.
Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army.
I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games.
That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest
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Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20!
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On November 06 2019 18:25 Harris1st wrote:
Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20!
Yea really curious to see if Terrans stop whining if they still lose on the new patch, but probably not. The last Zerg Buff was 23.1.2019, and since then terrans and protoss have been able to keep up quite good. Remember GSL S2 with 5 Protoss in Ro8, only two Zerg. Of course Dark won that season (because of imbalance, amiright?)
GSL S3 had 3 Terrans, 3 Zerg and 2 Protoss in Ro8
IEM 4 Zerg / 4 Protoss
At Assembly Stats won vs Serral and Solar
GSL ST2 had only 2 Zerg in Ro8 (4 Protoss, 2 Terran)
The only Zerg Maru lost to in last six months is Dark (winning agains Solar, Ragnarok, Reynor) (http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=)
The only Zerg TY lost to in last six months is Dark and Serral (winning against Rogue and Ragnarok) (http://aligulac.com/players/63/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=)
The WCS Circuit was dominated by Serral long before the Nydus patch.
Not denying that the Map Pool is good for Zerg atm, and that Nydus needs to be toned down, but the patch gonna address that. But Dark and Serral will continue to dominate because they are just beast.
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Canada8989 Posts
On November 06 2019 22:52 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 18:25 Harris1st wrote:
Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20! Yea really curious to see if Terrans stop whining if they still lose on the new patch, but probably not. The last Zerg Buff was 23.1.2019, and since then terrans and protoss have been able to keep up quite good. Remember GSL S2 with 5 Protoss in Ro8, only two Zerg. Of course Dark won that season (because of imbalance, amiright?) GSL S3 had 3 Terrans, 3 Zerg and 2 Protoss in Ro8 IEM 4 Zerg / 4 Protoss At Assembly Stats won vs Serral and Solar GSL ST2 had only 2 Zerg in Ro8 (4 Protoss, 2 Terran) The only Zerg Maru lost to in last six months is Dark (winning agains Solar, Ragnarok, Reynor) (http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The only Zerg TY lost to in last six months is Dark and Serral (winning against Rogue and Ragnarok) (http://aligulac.com/players/63/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The WCS Circuit was dominated by Serral long before the Nydus patch. Not denying that the Map Pool is good for Zerg atm, and that Nydus needs to be toned down, but the patch gonna address that. But Dark and Serral will continue to dominate because they are just beast.
We also didn't get a final without a zerg since ST1 and did get 14/16 events with a zerg finalist including 4 zvz.
We also had 7 different zerg finalists, (Solar, soO, Scarlett, Serral, Reynor, Rogue, Dark) they can't all be beast.
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On November 06 2019 22:52 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 18:25 Harris1st wrote:
Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20! Yea really curious to see if Terrans stop whining if they still lose on the new patch, but probably not. The last Zerg Buff was 23.1.2019, and since then terrans and protoss have been able to keep up quite good. Remember GSL S2 with 5 Protoss in Ro8, only two Zerg. Of course Dark won that season (because of imbalance, amiright?) GSL S3 had 3 Terrans, 3 Zerg and 2 Protoss in Ro8 IEM 4 Zerg / 4 Protoss At Assembly Stats won vs Serral and Solar GSL ST2 had only 2 Zerg in Ro8 (4 Protoss, 2 Terran) The only Zerg Maru lost to in last six months is Dark (winning agains Solar, Ragnarok, Reynor) (http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The only Zerg TY lost to in last six months is Dark and Serral (winning against Rogue and Ragnarok) (http://aligulac.com/players/63/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The WCS Circuit was dominated by Serral long before the Nydus patch. Not denying that the Map Pool is good for Zerg atm, and that Nydus needs to be toned down, but the patch gonna address that. But Dark and Serral will continue to dominate because they are just beast.
It is very unlikely that all these Zergs just happen to be the best versions of themselves at the same time by coincidence.
Stephano pioneered Zerg imbalance strategies during late WoL. It toke some time before Korean Zerg reproduced his strategies well enough, and in the end even surpassed him.
Still, broodlords infestors spores queens was an imbalance strategy from day 1.
I think history repeats itself today with Serral.
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On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground.
Maybe they could, but infestors also invalidate Protoss ground to air options on top of shutting down their air options.
On November 06 2019 18:25 Harris1st wrote:
Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20!
Real shame HSC will be on this map pool.
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Russian Federation54 Posts
On November 06 2019 23:35 Elentos wrote:
Maybe they could, but infestors also invalidate Protoss ground to air options on top of shutting down their air options.
i have to disagree. Protoss can win blood-infestor with ground. this combo is too slow. Protoss takes many bases 90 probs 20+ gates and destroy zerg bases avoiding head-on battle.
Main problem with ground are lurkers.
Main problem with air are infestors in current patch and vipers in the next one.
BUT... zerg imbalance (at least in pvz) is not just 1 late game combo but whole meta (including hosts). Zerg has too many different options to play.
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On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest
Stalkers and even Storm can counter unsupported Broodlords. The problem is when supported by pretty much anything (Zerglings, Banelings, Infestors, etc.), they can't. This could maybe possibly but probably not be acceptable if those Zerg units required any skill to use, but outside of ZvZ, neither Zerglings or Banelings require any and Infestors can receive the entirety of the Zerg player's focus because everything else is mindless.
That actually sums up pretty much all Zerg issues for years. The Zerg player can focus all of their attention on a single unit that murders the Terran or Protoss army while the Terran or Protoss player needs to split their attention between 2-4 different things and close to auto lose if they screw up even one of them.
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Bisutopia19229 Posts
On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest
My biggest issue is that broodlings lock the units in place not only preventing the units from advancing, but also from retreating. It removes the ability to kite and be mobile with your units. I'd be totally down for units that could either crush or walk through broodlings (Colossus doesn't count because it can't hit air and is countered by corrupters). It's is really painful to watch a full army of Thors die because they can't run away or engage.
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On November 07 2019 03:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest My biggest issue is that broodlings lock the units in place not only preventing the units from advancing, but also from retreating. It removes the ability to kite and be mobile with your units. I'd be totally down for units that could either crush or walk through broodlings (Colossus doesn't count because it can't hit air and is countered by corrupters). It's is really painful to watch a full army of Thors die because they can't run away or engage.
Gumiho's solution was to just add hellbats.
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On November 07 2019 03:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest My biggest issue is that broodlings lock the units in place not only preventing the units from advancing, but also from retreating. It removes the ability to kite and be mobile with your units. I'd be totally down for units that could either crush or walk through broodlings (Colossus doesn't count because it can't hit air and is countered by corrupters). It's is really painful to watch a full army of Thors die because they can't run away or engage.
Thors need a stomp attack that one shots anything with a transport size of 1 that is within melee range. It could be an upgrade so that proxy Thor rushes weren't auto win in TvZ. Tanks should also be able to run over/crush units that a transport size of 1.
Immortals should be able to walk over things though probably no crushing.
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A trample attack which eliminated broodlings and locusts would be really cool. I'd probably prefer to see it work just on the freebie/energy-generated units, but I could be persuaded.
Just to riff off of that, maybe it only works if you put the attacking unit on move command, adding a bit of a micro requirement and forcing you to choose between trampling and firing, but not both.
A tank angling itself to roll over a line of locusts would be pretty cinematic.
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On November 07 2019 03:26 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 17:45 deacon.frost wrote:On November 06 2019 16:16 washikie wrote:On November 06 2019 15:31 Charoisaur wrote:On November 06 2019 08:49 BisuDagger wrote:
I always thought fungal+parasitic bomb was the issue withinvestors, not infested Terrans. Fungal bombing instantly eliminates any air army which seems too absurd to me. Can someone please explain to me why ITs are the issue and not what I mentioned above? Vs terran that's true but vs Protoss fungal + parasitic bomb alone isn't even that good because Protoss uses mostly high HP capital ships in lategame. Current ITs absolutely hardcounter carriers though. Honestly I’m fine with zerg having extremely good anti air as long as the zerg air units are counterable by what’s on the ground. The problem with the current meta is that the zerg air units can’t be contested in the air due to zergs anti air capability but also can’t be contested on the ground due to bls countering all ground units save ghosts and thors (poor toss has nothing to contest bls from the ground =( ). Which struggle vs the supporting ground units zerg has with thier army. I do wonder if fixing bl infestor will Fix the overall ballance though. Nydus midgame is extremely strong but perhaps part of that is how hard other races have to lean into a kill them before they get thier strat and how predictable that makes them. Still I much prefer to see active games with lots of nydus aggression then the slow and agonizing bl infestor games. That was/is the main issue people have. BLs in higher numbers can't be countered by Protoss ground. Fix this and then you can leave the rest My biggest issue is that broodlings lock the units in place not only preventing the units from advancing, but also from retreating. It removes the ability to kite and be mobile with your units. I'd be totally down for units that could either crush or walk through broodlings (Colossus doesn't count because it can't hit air and is countered by corrupters). It's is really painful to watch a full army of Thors die because they can't run away or engage.
I'd go further and just removing broodlings entirely but just buff the damage of the initial attack instead. It's pretty obvious Broodlings are basically Guardians from original Starcraft with a free unit schtick. I do think free units that zerg owns do have to go and have something as a replacement. Swarm Hosts too while very effective thanks to Nydus should probably have some form of cost even if minor (like Carrier Interceptors, potentially cheaper like 10 minerals and 5 gas per locust). It's good they removed Infested Terrans for now at least but replaced it with something different entirely.
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Suggestion: Blink now stuns and puts the Stalker into a 1 second vulnerability phase before it teleports.
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I'm gonna say what needs to be said I really dont care if I get banned or not at this point because there is nothing left to say about this game anymore.
The game is so broken its not even funny. Its borderline unplayable to the point where they might as well just give up on the game and focus on a new game. Seriously how is it possible that someone can mass mutalisk and have their way with someone defending with mines turrets and THORS ? Oh thats right because the map design is as bad as the game design.
Admittedly I havent played the game in months but every game I lost has been due to pathing, units taking the worst possible route, armies splitting themselves and getting picked off because zerg can instantly move anywhere on the map. . . I can't comprehend blizzards obsession with bases that are winding routes , impossible to defend mutalisk harass. Like actually impossible.
Honestly playing Terran in this state of the game, it feels like your units are papermache that don't even pack a punch. I mean for christs sake thors with mines cannot beat mutalisk because they just fly away and INSTANTLY HEAL WHILE THEY FLY OVER TO YOUR OTHER BASES. Its a never ending circle of shit.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25049 Posts
On November 07 2019 11:37 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
I'm gonna say what needs to be said I really dont care if I get banned or not at this point because there is nothing left to say about this game anymore.
The game is so broken its not even funny. Its borderline unplayable to the point where they might as well just give up on the game and focus on a new game. Seriously how is it possible that someone can mass mutalisk and have their way with someone defending with mines turrets and THORS ? Oh thats right because the map design is as bad as the game design.
Admittedly I havent played the game in months but every game I lost has been due to pathing, units taking the worst possible route, armies splitting themselves and getting picked off because zerg can instantly move anywhere on the map. . . I can't comprehend blizzards obsession with bases that are winding routes , impossible to defend mutalisk harass. Like actually impossible.
Honestly playing Terran in this state of the game, it feels like your units are papermache that don't even pack a punch. I mean for christs sake thors with mines cannot beat mutalisk because they just fly away and INSTANTLY HEAL WHILE THEY FLY OVER TO YOUR OTHER BASES. Its a never ending circle of shit.
Other stuff I’ll not comment on but no clue what you’re talking about regarding pathing, SC2 has extremely good pathing, by a distance the best in any RTS I’ve ever played.
The only times units take the worse route regarding what you’d like them to is because it’s a shorter path, there’s nothing unpredictable or unmanageable to this.
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On November 07 2019 07:30 Loccstana wrote:
Suggestion: Blink now stuns and puts the Stalker into a 1 second vulnerability phase before it teleports.
if they strengthen the general purpose use of the Stalker in some way I'm all for weakening the Blink ability in some way.
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On November 06 2019 22:52 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2019 18:25 Harris1st wrote:
Really curious how this patch plays out in HSC 20! Yea really curious to see if Terrans stop whining if they still lose on the new patch, but probably not. The last Zerg Buff was 23.1.2019, and since then terrans and protoss have been able to keep up quite good. Remember GSL S2 with 5 Protoss in Ro8, only two Zerg. Of course Dark won that season (because of imbalance, amiright?) GSL S3 had 3 Terrans, 3 Zerg and 2 Protoss in Ro8 IEM 4 Zerg / 4 Protoss At Assembly Stats won vs Serral and Solar GSL ST2 had only 2 Zerg in Ro8 (4 Protoss, 2 Terran) The only Zerg Maru lost to in last six months is Dark (winning agains Solar, Ragnarok, Reynor) (http://aligulac.com/players/49/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The only Zerg TY lost to in last six months is Dark and Serral (winning against Rogue and Ragnarok) (http://aligulac.com/players/63/results/?after=2019-01-23&before=&event=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=) The WCS Circuit was dominated by Serral long before the Nydus patch. Not denying that the Map Pool is good for Zerg atm, and that Nydus needs to be toned down, but the patch gonna address that. But Dark and Serral will continue to dominate because they are just beast.
serral said if zerg's trash next patch he'll switch to terran, doesn't matter joke or not, he has a patch player mentality lol.
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EPT
