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On November 08 2019 21:23 hiroshOne wrote:
So basically with that changes Zerg has no counter to mass air from Protoss? Ahaha this new spell instead of Infested Terrans is soooo useless. How is this possible to lack imagination so much to not see that Zerg is dead vs Mass Carriers instant? OMG they are so clueless...Zerg struggling with antiair- lets take them away lategama antiair.
I bet u will say, that u can spam this spell and clumb ip some Hudras under it. Well hello Psi Storm...Ahaha it is so funny...
10 range lurkers vs 9 range storm
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Northern Ireland27198 Posts
On November 08 2019 21:56 Hvvacha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 21:23 hiroshOne wrote:
So basically with that changes Zerg has no counter to mass air from Protoss? Ahaha this new spell instead of Infested Terrans is soooo useless. How is this possible to lack imagination so much to not see that Zerg is dead vs Mass Carriers instant? OMG they are so clueless...Zerg struggling with antiair- lets take them away lategama antiair.
I bet u will say, that u can spam this spell and clumb ip some Hudras under it. Well hello Psi Storm...Ahaha it is so funny... 10 range lurkers vs 9 range storm
Indeed. It still might work out that Zerg struggle in this domain but I still am excited to see an attempt to shift things away from airball vs airball like we have in the lategame now.
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Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts?
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On November 08 2019 21:23 hiroshOne wrote:
So basically with that changes Zerg has no counter to mass air from Protoss? Ahaha this new spell instead of Infested Terrans is soooo useless. How is this possible to lack imagination so much to not see that Zerg is dead vs Mass Carriers instant? OMG they are so clueless...Zerg struggling with antiair- lets take them away lategama antiair.
I bet u will say, that u can spam this spell and clumb ip some Hudras under it. Well hello Psi Storm...Ahaha it is so funny...
Abduct+spores/hydras, fungal and corruptors?
If that is not enough, don't let them get there or attack where the carriers are not;-p
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If zerg anti air needs a buff without IT I am sure one will come. But useful free units get abused and make a mess of the macro style of trading resources and trying to be more efficient than your opponent. Hence why professional Protoss has been forced to play kill move style gameplay all the past year and macro toss has basically gone extinct. It's ridiculously samey 99% of the time and awful both to play and watch, so I'm very behind killing ITs and fix hydras/corruptors to be late game viable instead. I suspect 10 range lurker will be enough already to zone storm anyway.
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Northern Ireland27198 Posts
On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts?
My brain is fried with flu at the minute but I quite like it. Would give small Adept squadrons more roaming/retreat potential without making them much better in full army engagements
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On November 08 2019 08:31 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle? I think this is where the role of marauders fits in. You can slow and kite a handful of zealots with concussive shell far more effectively then zerglings.
Ahh yea that's a great point. I've forgotten that Marauders can slow the new speedlots when out of charge.
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On November 08 2019 23:21 totalpigeon wrote:
If zerg anti air needs a buff without IT I am sure one will come. But useful free units get abused and make a mess of the macro style of trading resources and trying to be more efficient than your opponent. Hence why professional Protoss has been forced to play kill move style gameplay all the past year and macro toss has basically gone extinct. It's ridiculously samey 99% of the time and awful both to play and watch, so I'm very behind killing ITs and fix hydras/corruptors to be late game viable instead. I suspect 10 range lurker will be enough already to zone storm anyway.
Oh they should buff more than one thing as for years everything was balanced around idea that Zerg units don't has to be efficient. That's why we got those "free units" to balance that out as Zerg units are either thrash or glass cannons likenhydras because they are massable. If u take free units u will have to substancially buff not free units. You see Terran and Protoss units are just better in stats than Zerg's.
But hey- i don't any buffs for Zerg whatsoever. The only one is Lurker but it will takenso long to get there, that you are already dead.
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Bisutopia19368 Posts
On November 09 2019 00:42 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 08:31 BisuDagger wrote:On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle? I think this is where the role of marauders fits in. You can slow and kite a handful of zealots with concussive shell far more effectively then zerglings. Ahh yea that's a great point. I've forgotten that Marauders can slow the new speedlots when out of charge.
It's even more effective now cause they took away the +8 damage on charge impact. Here's the sequence:
* Charge to unit
* Bio fires concussive shell during charge
* Bio stutters back
* Zealots were in mid swing animation as bio moved away therefore increasing the chance of missing
Disregarding speed it may require them to charge AND move to catch up to the unit before getting an effective swipe in. The micro in this battle would actually be insanely high level on both sides.
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On November 09 2019 01:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2019 00:42 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 08:31 BisuDagger wrote:On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle? I think this is where the role of marauders fits in. You can slow and kite a handful of zealots with concussive shell far more effectively then zerglings. Ahh yea that's a great point. I've forgotten that Marauders can slow the new speedlots when out of charge. It's even more effective now cause they took away the +8 damage on charge impact. Here's the sequence: * Charge to unit * Bio fires concussive shell during charge * Bio stutters back * Zealots were in mid swing animation as bio moved away therefore increasing the chance of missing Disregarding speed it may require them to charge AND move to catch up to the unit before getting an effective swipe in. The micro in this battle would actually be insanely high level on both sides.
Yes, of the GM level games I've seen on streams using the balance patch mod, this type of thing happens a lot and it's pretty cool. The protoss has to micro their zealots for them to be effective. Just attack moving them works a bit, but against good micro from the terran, the zealots become much less effective. Flanks are also way more important now.
The 8 damage thing is a much bigger deal than a lot of people who haven't seen the patch in use think. With it gone, the protoss is no longer guaranteed to kill units when zealots charge, but it is now on both the opponent to micro against the zealots, and on the protoss to micro their zealots to actually do damage. Attack moving against the new zealots is not going to work unless you have a large army. I watched a game where a zerg didn't micro their roaches against these zealots very much, and the roaches got destroyed easily. On creep, roaches with speed are faster than these zealots, so if the zerg micros, they can easily minimize the damage these zealots do. Charge all-ins will be much more down to micro now than it usually being a case of the protoss winning if zerg doesn't have enough roaches, and zerg wins if they have more than a few roaches and a few queens.
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On November 09 2019 01:25 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2019 00:42 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 08:31 BisuDagger wrote:On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle? I think this is where the role of marauders fits in. You can slow and kite a handful of zealots with concussive shell far more effectively then zerglings. Ahh yea that's a great point. I've forgotten that Marauders can slow the new speedlots when out of charge. It's even more effective now cause they took away the +8 damage on charge impact. Here's the sequence: * Charge to unit * Bio fires concussive shell during charge * Bio stutters back * Zealots were in mid swing animation as bio moved away therefore increasing the chance of missing Disregarding speed it may require them to charge AND move to catch up to the unit before getting an effective swipe in. The micro in this battle would actually be insanely high level on both sides.
Wasn't the hit on charge guaranteed? That was one of the reasons the +8 damage was so good, it was on top of the hit.
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Bisutopia19368 Posts
On November 09 2019 02:27 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2019 01:25 BisuDagger wrote:On November 09 2019 00:42 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 08:31 BisuDagger wrote:On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle? I think this is where the role of marauders fits in. You can slow and kite a handful of zealots with concussive shell far more effectively then zerglings. Ahh yea that's a great point. I've forgotten that Marauders can slow the new speedlots when out of charge. It's even more effective now cause they took away the +8 damage on charge impact. Here's the sequence: * Charge to unit * Bio fires concussive shell during charge * Bio stutters back * Zealots were in mid swing animation as bio moved away therefore increasing the chance of missing Disregarding speed it may require them to charge AND move to catch up to the unit before getting an effective swipe in. The micro in this battle would actually be insanely high level on both sides. Wasn't the hit on charge guaranteed? That was one of the reasons the +8 damage was so good, it was on top of the hit.
Yes, I believe you are right. And concussive is movement speed only, not attack speed right? So i guess that first hit is assured unless there was a spell that affected attack speed was cast.
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On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts?
Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though.
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On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though.
Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage.
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On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote:
So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz!
I think I’m done with this game, such an incompetent balance team.
They should have fixed infesters 8 years ago so.....
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On November 10 2019 02:53 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote:
So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz!
They should have fixed infesters 8 years ago so.....
IT was never a problem in the past 9 years. It was never a spell that someone used or abuse to won a tournament. The only reason why IT is a problem right now is it is powerful with fungal and other units to counter Protoss air units.
There are so many ways they can approach this. I feel sad they are removing it (not because I abuse it) but because it was such a cool spell. They can use many diff approach to make IT more viable. For example, revert IT such that they are weaker where upgrade armor/weapon won't apply to them, makes them more expensive, last shorter....
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On November 10 2019 18:03 BigRedDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2019 02:53 washikie wrote:On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote:
So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz!
They should have fixed infesters 8 years ago so..... IT was never a problem in the past 9 years. It was never a spell that someone used or abuse to won a tournament. The only reason why IT is a problem right now is it is powerful with fungal and other units to counter Protoss air units. There are so many ways they can approach this. I feel sad they are removing it (not because I abuse it) but because it was such a cool spell. They can use many diff approach to make IT more viable. For example, revert IT such that they are weaker where upgrade armor/weapon won't apply to them, makes them more expensive, last shorter....
right
such a cool spell
never a problem, only vs air btw.
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rapidfire casting is a scourge on the game
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On November 08 2019 04:54 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 04:42 InfCereal wrote:On November 08 2019 03:42 Brutaxilos wrote:
Is it still worth it to stutter step stim bio vs chargelots now? Chargelots move the same speed as stim bio so wondering if it's counterintuitive and wasting APM to try to micro it. Zerglings are faster than marines and you still stutter step vs them. Isn't this more to not get surrounded/retreat to mines or tanks tho? I feel like if there are enough chargelots to surround the bio army then it's already probably a lost battle?
Stuttering is to reduce surface area so that lings/lots are stuck trying to attack the closest unit in the army. It messes with the pathing. That's why you'll see zergs (most obvious example) ignore a-move and choose to run past for a few seconds to either get a full surround or catch as much of the ball as they can.
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On November 10 2019 18:03 BigRedDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2019 02:53 washikie wrote:On November 05 2019 18:25 661 wrote:
So after 9 years they finally find out, they never could balance the IT spell, so they just remove this iconic spell from the game AFTER 9 YEARS. Congratz!
They should have fixed infesters 8 years ago so..... IT was never a problem in the past 9 years. It was never a spell that someone used or abuse to won a tournament. The only reason why IT is a problem right now is it is powerful with fungal and other units to counter Protoss air units. There are so many ways they can approach this. I feel sad they are removing it (not because I abuse it) but because it was such a cool spell. They can use many diff approach to make IT more viable. For example, revert IT such that they are weaker where upgrade armor/weapon won't apply to them, makes them more expensive, last shorter....
I disagree. Along with the remax ability, it is impossible to give zerg ways to have even more army supply in form of ITs. It will always either be OP or useless. I don't find it cool either, I still have horrible visions of 20 WOL infestors under broodlords spamming huge bio-balls with no resource cost and no supply.
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EPT
