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On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage.
Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak.
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On November 10 2019 18:36 Aocowns wrote:
rapidfire casting is a scourge on the game
Indeed,
I never used the rapid fire, and as i m casual and i like performance i feel this would be a huge step fooor.. ohh wait i m Terran..
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On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak.
Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately.
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On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately.
If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6.
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On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6.
You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential.
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On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential.
If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade!
Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now?
This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes.
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There was an interesting suggestion that stalkers models should be made a little smaller, may unlock some more micro potential.
The other thing that sprung to mind is a range upgrade (+1 range) to stalkers on the cyber core.. Could make for some kiting
Carriers need to be a little bit tankier for their cost/time to make. +2 armour or something like that.
Don't really like the change to the void ray, it's interaction with stalkers means we might have a completely different PvP style if it were to go ahead. I'm not really sure of the role it's attempting to fill at the moment.
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Does anyone know when these changes are going live? It's got to be soon right?
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On November 11 2019 07:49 Z3nith wrote:
Does anyone know when these changes are going live? It's got to be soon right?
There was a suggestion earlier that it could be when ladder season ends. Makes sense to me for that to be the case, I want it earlier though cause I'm not participating in ladder atm 
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On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes.
Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that.
You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die.
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On November 11 2019 11:49 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes. Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that. You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die.
You have contradicted yourself first you state:
"You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished"
now your telling me
"Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that."
The things is. if you dont stim then shades are faster then bio so they are ontop of you. that's not catching Terran off guard.... they knew you were going to do it and had to let you.
If they didn't then you just cancel the shade and you have traded a cooldown for limited medivac energy or raw hp if medivacs are not out.
LOTV beta and launch were plagued by this sort of thing until the adept nerf went through. I'm happy with the current state of the adept its a reaper like unit that is best used for scouting and has some utility in allins, but is not a main army unit and not oppressive. That's fine. Why would we ever want to bring back the old adept styles of them shading on teran's army with no counter play and instagibbing it? that does not sound fun to me.
Glad this is not a proposed change by the balance team.
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So the current season began on August 22nd. Does this mean we have a ladder lock incoming on November 14th with a new season start on November 22nd?
Can't find any blue posts concering this
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On November 11 2019 12:52 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 11:49 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes. Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that. You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die. You have contradicted yourself first you state: "You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished" now your telling me "Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that." The things is. if you dont stim then shades are faster then bio so they are ontop of you. that's not catching Terran off guard.... they knew you were going to do it and had to let you. If they didn't then you just cancel the shade and you have traded a cooldown for limited medivac energy or raw hp if medivacs are not out. LOTV beta and launch were plagued by this sort of thing until the adept nerf went through. I'm happy with the current state of the adept its a reaper like unit that is best used for scouting and has some utility in allins, but is not a main army unit and not oppressive. That's fine. Why would we ever want to bring back the old adept styles of them shading on teran's army with no counter play and instagibbing it? that does not sound fun to me. Glad this is not a proposed change by the balance team.
You have new emp now too. Shading in mass adept onto clumped bio will be worthless against that. I don't really share your concerns about the playstyle coming back and being too strong after one such buff.
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On November 11 2019 11:49 totalpigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes. Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that. You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die.
why it's irrelevant tho, having more viable styles affects already-problematic state of the tvp, it's on new balance btw.
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On November 12 2019 01:29 Hvvacha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2019 11:49 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:On November 08 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:
Thinking on the adept and how it might be kept useful in its role for longer in the game. Keep glaives, but also add a new upgrade which reduces enemy unit attack speed when it is hit by the adept (say 25%?)
It effectively effectively buffs their existing role by making them more effective in small engagements. This keeps them relevant for longer when harassing or defending fringe bases. It synergises with their ability to shade onto an army or key units (to apply the debuff as the fight breaks out). As a unit that could be warped in en-masse, this also avoids giving them extra dps that could become abusive (especially vs workers) and retains their weaknesses to aoe units, longer ranged units and air units. Massed, due to their low range and the way that front line units absorb shots (i.e. the debuff is only distributed across the enemy front line) they don't gain a significant buff, keeping them from become significantly better than the zealot as a front line unit.
Thoughts? Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes. Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that. You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die. why it's irrelevant tho, having more viable styles affects already-problematic state of the tvp, it's on new balance btw.
That's missing Harstem' point and misrepresenting what he said though. His point in that clip was that the matchup is currently (as in, on this current patch) harder for terran right now because the current map pool favours protoss, which even most protoss players would agree with. The literal quote is "most terrans can't last for very long in this matchup because, well, it's rather okay for protoss at the moment, espec--, mainly because it's on the current map pool. It's very difficult for terrans to get good results in this matchup". Big, open maps have always typically favoured protoss, while smaller maps with more chokes have favoured terran.
Harstem's point is something several of us having been trying to drive home in this thread for a while now. There are definitely issues right now with the game, but the current map pool has been exacerbating many of them to seem much worse than they are on maps of other sizes. Most map pools have had 1-2 large maps at the most, along with a few medium and small maps, and on occasion a gimmicky map. This map pool contains mostly larger than average maps, and many of the maps are much more open than maps from the past. The two maps in this pool that aren't large and open, Ephemeron and Winter's Gate, are instead gimmicky maps with weird layouts that make expansions difficult to take in some matchups. For Ephemeron, for example, the only options for a fourth are either expanding towards your opponent, or expanding quite far away from the only viable option for a third. Winter's Gate has similar issues.
As I said in a previous post, it was fine to have Acropolis and Thunderbird in the last map pool because there were other maps to balance them out since they were such a large, open maps that favoured one side in some matchups. Instead, now we have 5 maps roughly the size of Acropolis that all share similar traits to Acropolis, and we have ended up with a map pool where you can't really veto out all of the bad maps, so we end up with games where pros are forced to play on maps they know will not be favourable for them at all. For example, no protoss would willingly try to play a macro PvZ on Thunderbird since it's so easy for the zerg to pin protoss on 3 bases with one of several different styles that work well on that map. That's why most protoss wins on that map came from all-ins.
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On November 12 2019 04:08 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2019 01:29 Hvvacha wrote:On November 11 2019 11:49 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 07:42 washikie wrote:On November 11 2019 07:30 totalpigeon wrote:On November 11 2019 02:06 washikie wrote:On November 10 2019 22:52 totalpigeon wrote:On November 10 2019 22:03 Lexender wrote:On November 09 2019 19:16 totalpigeon wrote:On November 09 2019 05:40 serendipitous wrote:
[quote]
Terran would never win against adepts then. Adepts are my favourite toss unit but I can't imagine a way to make them good in actual fights without them being broken against terran. I like the direction they're going that emphasises harass and burst damage though. Oh? I actually thought an attack slow debuff would be most underwhelming in TvP. Gated as a separate upgrade to glaives it would be kind of late, so it won't buff early game adepts or any glaives allin (except perhaps as a transition), and adepts aren't generally used after that point normally because they just don't have enough dps or hp for their cost and supply. The upgrade indirectly makes them a bit tankier in a big fight, so I suppose they may compare a bit better to zealots, but I don't see it being a particularly big deal against a ranged terran army which can abuse its speed, range and dps advantage. Considering a flat 25% damage reduction would work on top of stim, it will incredibly good in reducing the DPS of a bio army rendering incredibly weak. Keep the debuff duration short and it should be fine. Then it would only affect units who are at that moment engaged with the adepts. It's also pretty unlikely that you manage to debuff everything in a large army, as the front row will soak most of the shots and the rest of the army will keep its full dps. You don't need to stutter step away from adepts like zealots, so you'll probably only lose 10-15% dps at most in a large engagement. That makes it similar to the 20 shield hp buff proposed before. A short duration of 0.5s or so also means if a a few units can break away from the adepts to hit a colossus or something, they'll be back up to full dps more or less immediately. If the adepts shade ontop of you nearly your whole army will get hit by them. Additionally if they have not shaded ontop of you stutter stepping is useful since adepts only have 4 range to the marines 5 and the marauders 6. You mean if Terran isn't paying attention to his army, he might get punished? Well, yeah. That's how the game is supposed to work. You can still stim and move to split against the shade, or stim and pull your marines out of it while the marauders tank. Besides, stim bio wrecks adepts at the minute. A small buff isn't unreasonable - like I said, it would probably work out to a 10-15% dps decrease, which is similar to the shield buff the balance team were suggesting. This is just a more interesting way of doing it with some additional utility and micro potential. If you stim vs adept shade they can just cancel you have paid life on your units/ medivac energy for a cooldowns what a trade! Also does Protoss realy need help vs Terran right now? This is a bad idea glad it’s not in the patch notes. Obviously you don't stim until they commit. I'm surprised I need to clarify that. You point about about toss not needing help against terran is irrelevant, the adept as a unit is trash once midgame ends and needs some love. Anyway there's no need to get emotional over a suggestion, if you don't like it you don't like it, whatever. Why even bother replying? Just let it die. why it's irrelevant tho, having more viable styles affects already-problematic state of the tvp, it's on new balance btw. That's missing Harstem' point and misrepresenting what he said though. His point in that clip was that the matchup is currently (as in, on this current patch) harder for terran right now because the current map pool favours protoss, which even most protoss players would agree with. The literal quote is "most terrans can't last for very long in this matchup because, well, it's rather okay for protoss at the moment, espec--, mainly because it's on the current map pool. It's very difficult for terrans to get good results in this matchup". Big, open maps have always typically favoured protoss, while smaller maps with more chokes have favoured terran. Harstem's point is something several of us having been trying to drive home in this thread for a while now. There are definitely issues right now with the game, but the current map pool has been exacerbating many of them to seem much worse than they are on maps of other sizes. Most map pools have had 1-2 large maps at the most, along with a few medium and small maps, and on occasion a gimmicky map. This map pool contains mostly larger than average maps, and many of the maps are much more open than maps from the past. The two maps in this pool that aren't large and open, Ephemeron and Winter's Gate, are instead gimmicky maps with weird layouts that make expansions difficult to take in some matchups. For Ephemeron, for example, the only options for a fourth are either expanding towards your opponent, or expanding quite far away from the only viable option for a third. Winter's Gate has similar issues. As I said in a previous post, it was fine to have Acropolis and Thunderbird in the last map pool because there were other maps to balance them out since they were such a large, open maps that favoured one side in some matchups. Instead, now we have 5 maps roughly the size of Acropolis that all share similar traits to Acropolis, and we have ended up with a map pool where you can't really veto out all of the bad maps, so we end up with games where pros are forced to play on maps they know will not be favourable for them at all. For example, no protoss would willingly try to play a macro PvZ on Thunderbird since it's so easy for the zerg to pin protoss on 3 bases with one of several different styles that work well on that map. That's why most protoss wins on that map came from all-ins.
I really hope next season features more weird maps, like Desert Oasis or Dasan Station. Even as a P, it's not fun to be shoehorned into standard play every game.
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There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas.
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On November 12 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:
There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas.
At the same time we're getting to
1) You need to more control speedlots
2) You need to more control adepts
3) Blink
4) FF
5) WP + immortal juggling
6) Storm
(we can continue)
Do you see the trend and where am I going? This isn't very healthy IMO compared to the other armies. While the meme of the a-move to victory is funny one the longer the game goes the more control heavy Protoss is with constant addition of some micro helpers.
(Both #1 and #2 are added right now)
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personally id give vikings and/or stalkers some sort of upgrade that changes their attack from projectile to instant damage or maybe automatically unlock it after 2/2 or 3/3 is finished. Theres so much overkill in these units in large scale late game fights. right now Smart zergs can just amove their overseers at the start of engagement and automatically soak up the first few volleys of shots. Meanwhile terran most likely has to control ghost lib + micro and splitting for fungals and parasitic bomb. It just feels like the effort required to win a fight is way less for the zerg and extremely unforgiving for the terran.
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On November 12 2019 08:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:
There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas. At the same time we're getting to 1) You need to more control speedlots
2) You need to more control adepts3) Blink 4) FF 5) WP + immortal juggling 6) Storm (we can continue) Do you see the trend and where am I going? This isn't very healthy IMO compared to the other armies. While the meme of the a-move to victory is funny one the longer the game goes the more control heavy Protoss is with constant addition of some micro helpers. (Both #1 and #2 are added right now)
Did you ever try microing 2 drops while sieging forward with mines and liberators, emping with ghosts and stim/kiting bio? It is humanly impossible of course. Increasing the skill cap of Toss is completely fine imo. You will get used to it!
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WCS
