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Northern Ireland13366 Posts
On November 12 2019 09:40 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2019 08:09 deacon.frost wrote:On November 12 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:
There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas. At the same time we're getting to 1) You need to more control speedlots
2) You need to more control adepts3) Blink 4) FF 5) WP + immortal juggling 6) Storm (we can continue) Do you see the trend and where am I going? This isn't very healthy IMO compared to the other armies. While the meme of the a-move to victory is funny one the longer the game goes the more control heavy Protoss is with constant addition of some micro helpers. (Both #1 and #2 are added right now) Did you ever try microing 2 drops while sieging forward with mines and liberators, emping with ghosts and stim/kiting bio? It is humanly impossible of course. Increasing the skill cap of Toss is completely fine imo. You will get used to it!
I personally find Toss micro gets exponentially harder for the reasons Deacon describes, but am totally down for the changes if they both raise the skill floor a bit in terms of effectiveness of A-moving, while raising the ceiling to make Protoss players with good basic unit micro some more room to make use of it.
By basic I mean just splitting, flanking, targeting with basic stock units, so a speedier passive Zealot speed could fit that bill.
I think by and large people tend to prefer matchups and metas when stock unit control is more obviously at play than when it’s more about whose casters and abilities land at the correct times against the correct things.
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On November 12 2019 10:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2019 09:40 Slydie wrote:On November 12 2019 08:09 deacon.frost wrote:On November 12 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:
There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas. At the same time we're getting to 1) You need to more control speedlots
2) You need to more control adepts3) Blink 4) FF 5) WP + immortal juggling 6) Storm (we can continue) Do you see the trend and where am I going? This isn't very healthy IMO compared to the other armies. While the meme of the a-move to victory is funny one the longer the game goes the more control heavy Protoss is with constant addition of some micro helpers. (Both #1 and #2 are added right now) Did you ever try microing 2 drops while sieging forward with mines and liberators, emping with ghosts and stim/kiting bio? It is humanly impossible of course. Increasing the skill cap of Toss is completely fine imo. You will get used to it! I personally find Toss micro gets exponentially harder for the reasons Deacon describes, but am totally down for the changes if they both raise the skill floor a bit in terms of effectiveness of A-moving, while raising the ceiling to make Protoss players with good basic unit micro some more room to make use of it. By basic I mean just splitting, flanking, targeting with basic stock units, so a speedier passive Zealot speed could fit that bill. I think by and large people tend to prefer matchups and metas when stock unit control is more obviously at play than when it’s more about whose casters and abilities land at the correct times against the correct things.
No one can do everything, which is good, because it gives players more room to differentiate themselves (e.g a player with good basic unit control vs one that's good at drop micro vs one that's good at managing late-game armies with spell-casters, etc).
You saw this a lot with Protoss players in Brood War and their favored compositions (e.g Bisu with Corsair/Reaver vs Jangbi's storms).
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The OP should be updated again:
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23223600/starcraft-ii-balance-update-november-14-2019
STARCRAFT II BALANCE UPDATE - NOVEMBER 14, 2019
Greetings! Now that BlizzCon is behind us and the post-show patch looms, we’d like to take one final opportunity to examine some tweaks we could make to our initial proposals. As we’ve received generally positive feedback on the direction of the changes we’ve proposed, we intend to make these tweaks as small as possible while we wait for games to play out that will showcase these changes—for instance, at HomeStoryCup XX next week. Below is the list of final changes we’d like to make:
Lurker
Lurkers affected by Blinding Cloud will now only fire to melee range.
Previously, Lurkers under Blinding Cloud could not target enemies outside of melee range, but their spines would still fire to maximum range if they attacked a unit at melee range. After this change, Lurkers will effectively only shoot out a single spine if an enemy is within melee range. As a result, we believe Ultralisks will become a more competitive option in late-game ZvZ.
Nydus Worm
Removed the Propulsive Peristalsis upgrade from the Evolution Chamber.
We heard the feedback that the changes we proposed for the Propulsive Peristalsis upgrade, which reduced load and unload times on the Nydus Worm, would be unimpactful. As we’d like to avoid introducing upgrades that see little use and fail to encourage positive gameplay, we’d like to trim this upgrade from the upcoming patch.
Additional Changes/Bug Fixes
Splash damage will now properly be applied to units affected by Anti-Armor missile.
Fixed an issue where Abduct and Interference Matrix could still interrupt a Tactical Jumping Battlecruiser in certain situations.
Updated the Tactical Jump visual glaze.
As there are relatively few changes in this update, we’d also like to take the time to highlight our primary points of focus when looking at future changes.
Terran’s relationship against Disruptors with reduced Liberator range.
The resulting strength of Nydus Worms, especially when combined with Swarm Hosts.
The strength and prevalence of Lurkers in ZvP and ZvZ.
Numbers tweaks we could make to the new Microbial Shroud ability.
The strength and role of Zealots, both in general and against kiting Terran Bio units.
The strength use of the new Resonating Glaive ability.
The end-game dynamics of each matchup.
When this post goes live, the Balance Test Mod will have been updated with these changes. We also plan to push the balance changes to the live ladder at the start of next season on Tuesday, November 26th. Below is the full list of changes you’ll find in the upcoming patch:
TERRAN
Hellion/Hellbat
Infernal Pre-Igniter research cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100.
Thor
High Impact Payload damage decreased from 40 (+15 vs Massive) to 25 (+10 vs Massive).
High Impact Payload weapon cooldown decreased from 1.7 to 0.9.
Medivac
Moved the Rapid Re-Ignition System upgrade from the Starport Tech Lab to the Fusion Core.
In addition to reducing the Medivac's Ignite Afterburners cooldown by 5 seconds, this upgrade will also increase the Medivac's base movement speed from 3.5 to 4.13. However, this upgrade will not affect Medivac’s movement speed during the Ignite Afterburners effect.
Liberator
Advanced Ballistics upgrade moved from the Starport Tech Lab to the Fusion Core.
Advanced Ballistics upgrade now increases the range of Liberators in Defender Mode by 3, down from 4.
Raven
Interference Matrix energy cost increased from 50 energy to 75 energy.
Interference Matrix duration increased from 8 seconds to 11 seconds.
Raven movement speed increased from 3.85 to 4.13.
Fixed an issue where splash damage will not properly apply to units affected by Anti-Armor missile.
Battlecruiser
Tactical Jump now stuns and puts the Battlecruiser into a 1 second vulnerability phase before it teleports. In this state, the Battlecruiser can be damaged, but Tactical Jump may not be canceled.
Yamato Cannon will no longer cancel itself if a target enters a transport or becomes cloaked/burrowed. Instead, the Yamato Cannon will miss, and the ability will go on cooldown.
M.U.L.E.
Duration decreased from 64 seconds to 63 seconds.
M.U.L.E.'s now always attempt to spawn on the side of minerals closest to a town hall.
ZERG
Creep
Active Creep Tumors may no longer be canceled.
Overlord
Pneumatized Carapace research cost increased from 75/75 to 100/100.
Infestor
Removed the Infested Terran ability.
New Ability: Microbial Shroud
Creates a shroud that obscures ground units below, reducing the damage they take from air units by 50%. Lasts 11 seconds. Energy cost: 100.
Cast range: 9.
Radius: 3.
New upgrade found on the Infestation Pit: Evolve Microbial Shroud
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 79 seconds.
Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 8.
Neural Parasite can no longer target Heroic units.
Lurker
Lurker Den build time decreased from 86 seconds to 57 seconds.
Lurker range decreased from 9 to 8.
New Upgrade found on the Lurker Den: Seismic Spines
Increases the Lurker’s range from 8 to 10.
Requirement: Hive.
Research cost: 150/150.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
Increased research duration of Adaptive Talons from 54 seconds to 57 seconds.
Lurkers affected by Blinding Cloud will now only fire to melee range.
Brood Lord
Broodling leash range decreased from 12 to 9.
NYDUS NETWORK
Nydus Worm cost increased from 50/50 to 75/75.
Summon Nydus Worm ability cooldown increased from 0 to 14.
Nydus Network and Nydus Worm initial unload delay increased from 0.18 to 0.36.
Nydus Network and Nydus Worm load period increased from 0.09 to 0.18.
Nydus Network and Nydus Worm unload period increased from 0.18 to 0.36.
PROTOSS
Oracle, Sentry, and Void Ray
Fixed an issue where beam attacks could deal more damage than intended.
Zealot
The Charge upgrade no longer provides Zealots with +8 damage on impact. Instead, it increases Zealot movement speed from 3.15 to 4.72, up from 4.13.
Adept
Resonating Glaives reworked. Instead of increasing attack speed of the Adept by 45%, it will increase the attack speed of the Adept by 60% for 6 seconds after a completed Psionic Transfer.
Observer
Observer movement speed decreased from 3.01 to 2.63.
Gravitic Boosters upgrade now increases movement speed by 1.31, down from 1.51.
Void Ray
New upgrade found on the Fleet Beacon: Flux Vanes
Increases the Void Ray’s movement speed from 3.5 to 4.65.
Increases the Void Ray’s acceleration from 2.8 to 3.76.
After the upgrade, the Prismatic Alignment ability will still reduce the Void Ray’s movement speed to 2.625.
Research cost: 100/100.
Research duration: 57 seconds.
Tempest
Kinetic Overload (anti-air) range decreased from 15 to 14.
Health increased from 150 to 200.
Shields decreased from 125 to 100.
Mothership
Time Warp now affects air units in addition to ground units and buildings.
Time Warp delay reduces from 3.57 seconds to 1.79 seconds.
Gains the Heroic Tag. Neural Parasite can no longer target Heroic units.
Edit: fixed link
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So many upgrades.... The game is gonna get weird.
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I am slowly getting more positive about the upcoming changes.
Most seam at least reasonable even if do not nail down the issues exactly.
However I am also not keen on adding more upgrades to the game as there is already a bit too many of them - some "clean up" would be nice.
Also I do not like Adept change, seems really circumstancial.
Maybe instead of increasing attack speed add bouncing attack (similar to mutalisk) ?
And if they want to differentiate Adept from zealot further they should make Adept more nimble:
Increase movement speed, decrease attack delay, reduce health/shields etc.
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On November 15 2019 07:59 egrimm wrote:
However I am also not keen on adding more upgrades to the game as there is already a bit too many of them - some "clean up" would be nice.
I am of the opposite side. The upgrades will make playstyles even more impactful. You will mold your military according to your wishes and it will be stronger as the games go on, making early game more pronounced.
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What do you think about an idea to change Nydus Network so it (main building) would take damage when Nydus Worm is destroyed? I think an appropriate amount is about 25%(maybe more) of network's HP per 1 worm. So zerg could create only 4 sequential Nydus Worms if every previous worm is destroyed by an enemy.
Logically it makes sence since Nydus Worm and Nydus Network is the same biological organism, so cutting off one head damages the main body.
What main essences stay behind this idea:
- To make Nydus meta play less reckless for zerg player. So Zerg has to estimate risks of creating Nydus worm right infront of enemy army. I think it will make Nydus net more as a strategical tool. Aslo multiple worms become more risky in general. Zerg can great as many exits as he wants, but an opponent can destroy whole network after 4 worms have been found and killed
- It will force Queen's Transfusion + Nydus Network interaction. In order to maintain Nydus Network beeing alive zerg has to use more transfusions behind the scene but not on the battlefield. Also it will make nydus strategy more APM consuming. 25% of nydus network HP = 212.5, so zerg has to make 2 transfusions (and plus some time) to cover the damage after 1 dead worm.
- Potentially we (as viewers) could watch more breathtaking gameplay moments when zerg army gets trapped on enemy base and die (or not), or even when zerg-player lose his army because of whole Network get destroyed.
- If enemy player sees 5th sequential Nydus worm after killing four previous in short time he will know that zerg is investing additional resources into Nydus strategy. Additional potential for mindgames.
- If zerg waits enough he will be able to create more Nydus worms thanks to zerg's regeneration.
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On November 12 2019 09:40 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2019 08:09 deacon.frost wrote:On November 12 2019 08:02 Slydie wrote:
There was some debate about the Adept change on BeastyQT's stream today. He did not like the proposed change as it can be considered a nerf compared to how the unit works currently. However, I do understand why they want to focus more on the shade ability:
-It makes it feel more different from the Zealot, a unit it overlaps with a lot.
-To have the most DPS out of your adepts, you will have to shade constantly, even in fights, which is cool imo, and it increases the skillcap of the unit.
-Players will find ways to abuse the increased burst damage, obviusly for harassment, but also for flanking and sniping important units during fights.
I don't thing it is meant as a balance change but rather a way to make the unit more interresting. It reminds me of the "critical strike when leaving cloak" abilities we know from games like WC3 and mobas. At the same time we're getting to 1) You need to more control speedlots
2) You need to more control adepts3) Blink 4) FF 5) WP + immortal juggling 6) Storm (we can continue) Do you see the trend and where am I going? This isn't very healthy IMO compared to the other armies. While the meme of the a-move to victory is funny one the longer the game goes the more control heavy Protoss is with constant addition of some micro helpers. (Both #1 and #2 are added right now) Did you ever try microing 2 drops while sieging forward with mines and liberators, emping with ghosts and stim/kiting bio? It is humanly impossible of course. Increasing the skill cap of Toss is completely fine imo. You will get used to it!
All of that is fine and all but it is not as difficult as Protoss micro as it stands right now.
One thing you are also not taking into account that micro doesn’t mean nearly as much when there is such pitiful dps. Protoss units have such pitiful DPS! Including the new zealot. So while you can micro to get that juicy flank the zealots will just bounce off an MMM ball. It’s absurd.
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cant wait for blinding cloud and whatever that infestor cloud thing is called to stack so nothing dies from air or ground as ultras eat away at everything on the ground
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On November 18 2019 01:45 Carminedust wrote:
cant wait for blinding cloud and whatever that infestor cloud thing is called to stack so nothing dies from air or ground as ultras eat away at everything on the ground
Ultras will still be garbage. Disruptors, ghost snipe still work. Heavy hitters like Thors (which can already beat ultra 1v1), immortal, and archon still can do damage to ultras. good luck trying to catch stim marauders under a blinding cloud
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On November 18 2019 01:45 Carminedust wrote:
cant wait for blinding cloud and whatever that infestor cloud thing is called to stack so nothing dies from air or ground as ultras eat away at everything on the ground
Does the microbial shroud stack??
Edit: oh ok you mean stacking shroud and blinding cloud. Sorry.
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Colossus get a range upgrade, lurkers get a range upgrade, siege tanks should get a range upgrade too.
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On November 15 2019 07:59 egrimm wrote:
I am slowly getting more positive about the upcoming changes.
Most seam at least reasonable even if do not nail down the issues exactly.
However I am also not keen on adding more upgrades to the game as there is already a bit too many of them - some "clean up" would be nice.
Also I do not like Adept change, seems really circumstancial.
Maybe instead of increasing attack speed add bouncing attack (similar to mutalisk) ?
And if they want to differentiate Adept from zealot further they should make Adept more nimble:
Increase movement speed, decrease attack delay, reduce health/shields etc.
As long as an upgrade is not unbalanced I’m totally fine with it being in the game. It doesn’t hurt anything and it allows cool niche strategies to be used from time to time like recently when classic went blink dts. Or when Gumiho goes speed banshees. Sometimes niche upgrades take a long time to find thier uses but eventually do like burrow roaches (which had to be nerfed for zvz) My only problem with upgrades is if they are to strong or force another race to play a very specific way. Take khadrian amulet,blink back in the hots blink meta, blue flame in its first iteration, 75/75 overlord speed ect.
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On November 19 2019 09:01 Loccstana wrote:
Colossus get a range upgrade, lurkers get a range upgrade, siege tanks should get a range upgrade too.
As some one who plays both Zerg and Terran in masters I think that could make tvt and zvt unpleasant
if it was only +1 range maybe. but it would need to cost a lot and be gated behind fusion core or something. I guess you could play with it to not make turtle mech insufferable. You just don’t want it to be so strong that nothing can contest tanks on the ground. No mandatory air game is preferable. I wouldnt mind tanks getting some love vs toss though to make them scale a bit better. The removal of charge dmg on hit does help here since it means that terran’s frontline won’t die quite as fast maybe you get 1 extra tank shot volley now.
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On November 19 2019 09:49 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2019 09:01 Loccstana wrote:
Colossus get a range upgrade, lurkers get a range upgrade, siege tanks should get a range upgrade too. As some one who plays both Zerg and Terran in masters I think that could make tvt and zvt unpleasant if it was only +1 range maybe. but it would need to cost a lot and be gated behind fusion core or something. I guess you could play with it to not make turtle mech insufferable. You just don’t want it to be so strong that nothing can contest tanks on the ground. No mandatory air game is preferable. I wouldnt mind tanks getting some love vs toss though to make them scale a bit better. The removal of charge dmg on hit does help here since it means that terran’s frontline won’t die quite as fast maybe you get 1 extra tank shot volley now.
Disagree - positional units should be strong.
The upgrade should increase range by 5 (up to 18) and cost 50/50 on the techlab.
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Northern Ireland13366 Posts
On November 21 2019 23:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2019 09:49 washikie wrote:On November 19 2019 09:01 Loccstana wrote:
Colossus get a range upgrade, lurkers get a range upgrade, siege tanks should get a range upgrade too. As some one who plays both Zerg and Terran in masters I think that could make tvt and zvt unpleasant if it was only +1 range maybe. but it would need to cost a lot and be gated behind fusion core or something. I guess you could play with it to not make turtle mech insufferable. You just don’t want it to be so strong that nothing can contest tanks on the ground. No mandatory air game is preferable. I wouldnt mind tanks getting some love vs toss though to make them scale a bit better. The removal of charge dmg on hit does help here since it means that terran’s frontline won’t die quite as fast maybe you get 1 extra tank shot volley now. Disagree - positional units should be strong. The upgrade should increase range by 5 (up to 18) and cost 50/50 on the techlab.
*Shudders*
I think Blizz botched the tank, it was a perfect RTS unit. Long range with a deploy period that gives it a definable strength and weakness. Does splash and friendly fire so lots of soft countermeasures too.
Not only do units exist that can A-move into tank lines, spells exist that can yoink tanks, we now have a bunch of units that even out range tanks too, without the other drawbacks tanks have in mobility and positioning.
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On November 08 2019 01:52 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 01:29 Lexender wrote:On October 04 2019 05:16 Noocta wrote:
This game has become way too upgrade bloated. There's a design problem ? make a new upgrade ? Something too strong, too weak, upgrades there, upgrades everywhere.
Just compare how clean most of the Broodwar upgrades are compared to this. Yes, +1 sight range for ghosts is very clearly a clean upgrade. lol, didn't even remember that one. But then I haven't followed BW in a long time. Are the Queen upgrades ever used? xD
Yes, queen is a solid pvt meta now, but even if it wasn't... unused units doesn't equal balance or imbalance.
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On November 22 2019 00:30 AntiHack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2019 01:52 Harris1st wrote:On November 08 2019 01:29 Lexender wrote:On October 04 2019 05:16 Noocta wrote:
This game has become way too upgrade bloated. There's a design problem ? make a new upgrade ? Something too strong, too weak, upgrades there, upgrades everywhere.
Just compare how clean most of the Broodwar upgrades are compared to this. Yes, +1 sight range for ghosts is very clearly a clean upgrade. lol, didn't even remember that one. But then I haven't followed BW in a long time. Are the Queen upgrades ever used? xD Yes, queen is a solid pvt meta now, but even if it wasn't... unused units doesn't equeal balance or imbalance.
Which wasn't the claim, but thank you for your valuable input.
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On November 22 2019 02:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2019 00:30 AntiHack wrote:On November 08 2019 01:52 Harris1st wrote:On November 08 2019 01:29 Lexender wrote:On October 04 2019 05:16 Noocta wrote:
This game has become way too upgrade bloated. There's a design problem ? make a new upgrade ? Something too strong, too weak, upgrades there, upgrades everywhere.
Just compare how clean most of the Broodwar upgrades are compared to this. Yes, +1 sight range for ghosts is very clearly a clean upgrade. lol, didn't even remember that one. But then I haven't followed BW in a long time. Are the Queen upgrades ever used? xD Yes, queen is a solid pvt meta now, but even if it wasn't... unused units doesn't equeal balance or imbalance. Which wasn't the claim, but thank you for your valuable input.
It's more of a message to the scout, ghost, queen whiners that always talk about those units in terms of balance.
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EPT
