EPTEspecially so if this version approaches the game as weirdly as the old ones did, and why wouldn't it?
AlphaStar released: Deepmind Research on Ladder - Page 4
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oXoCube
Canada197 Posts
Especially so if this version approaches the game as weirdly as the old ones did, and why wouldn't it? | ||
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
On July 12 2019 01:54 UnLarva wrote: I assume they won't run AlphaStar agents in ladder with similar computational resources they did when the project was under development. Are these agents installed/integrated to Blizzard's servers or does they still operate at Google's supercomputers requiring extra internet connection between the agents' home server and Blizzard's home/ladder server, or are these both in same geographic location? I also think that the learning curve on the ladder will be several magnitudes slower as games are actually played with humanly possible game speed. Million games agent vs agent using TPU supercomputers take a lot less time than million games human player vs agent, and doesn't require any kind visually displayed interface like actual SC2. The Battle.net post says that AlphaStar does not learn from ladder games. It is trained before. | ||
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renaissanceMAN
United States1840 Posts
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Penev
28524 Posts
On July 12 2019 02:15 oXoCube wrote: If it's actually at a high master or better level(personally wouldn't really doubt it) the agents won't stay hidden for long. Especially so if this version approaches the game as weirdly as the old ones did, and why wouldn't it? Hope so, I'd like to watch some of that weirdness | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
I see. Agents aren't going to learn. They are what they are and when spotted by human players, specific tactics could maybe developed to abuse their traits. Computational resources required are minuscule compared to actively learning neural network. They are just bots developed via evolutionary means. | ||
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Elentos
55567 Posts
On July 12 2019 02:15 oXoCube wrote: Especially so if this version approaches the game as weirdly as the old ones did, and why wouldn't it? Because it can't micro blink stalkers in every part of the map at the same time perfectly anymore due to more limited APM. | ||
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Penev
28524 Posts
On July 12 2019 02:54 Elentos wrote: Because it can't micro blink stalkers in every part of the map at the same time perfectly anymore due to more limited APM. That wasn't the only weird thing it did, I wonder if it still overbuilds workers. Also it plays all the races now so it might do some new weird shit as well. | ||
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oXoCube
Canada197 Posts
On July 12 2019 02:54 Elentos wrote: Because it can't micro blink stalkers in every part of the map at the same time perfectly anymore due to more limited APM. One very valid but highly specific criticism of one specific game it played does not undo the premise. I would also be pretty willing to bet that the new Protoss versions will still have a huge love affair with blink stalkers. Micro will always be the biggest strength of any good AI. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
On July 12 2019 01:54 UnLarva wrote: I assume they won't run AlphaStar agents in ladder with similar computational resources they did when the project was under development. Are these agents installed/integrated to Blizzard's servers or does they still operate at Google's supercomputers requiring extra internet connection between the agents' home server and Blizzard's home/ladder server, or are these both in same geographic location? I also think that the learning curve on the ladder will be several magnitudes slower as games are actually played with humanly possible game speed. Million games agent vs agent using TPU supercomputers take a lot less time than million games human player vs agent, and doesn't require any kind visually displayed interface like actual SC2. the actual agent runs on a standart deskop pc. Thats the big selling point of neural networks anyway. they require loads of data and analysis to train but once they actually run its a different story. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Good thing they said it will not learn anything from those matches. But for sure it will say gl hf | ||
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Elentos
55567 Posts
On July 12 2019 03:07 oXoCube wrote: One very valid but highly specific criticism of one specific game it played does not undo the premise. I would also be pretty willing to bet that the new Protoss versions will still have a huge love affair with blink stalkers. Micro will always be the biggest strength of any good AI. It's primarily supposed to end up as an AI that strategizes though and not a micro bot. Eventually with capped APM that should mean less micro, more macro and positioning. However I'm more than curious whether the thing has learnt to leave games at a reasonable timing yet or if it still waits until you kill all its buildings. And what does it lean towards? Fantasy GG or Idra GG? | ||
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oXoCube
Canada197 Posts
On July 12 2019 03:34 Elentos wrote: It's primarily supposed to end up as an AI that strategizes though and not a micro bot. Eventually with capped APM that should mean less micro, more macro and positioning. Yes. It's still going to have top notch mechanics though, it's a bot. The goal is to get the mechanical strength into a human range not cripple it. EDIT: Agree with your edit. I'm sure it occured to the team that it waiting for someone to kill all of it's buildings before leaving would be a dead giveaway as to what that person is playing against though. | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7475 Posts
Does it use hotkeys? If not, that is a give away. I hope we are able to do what we have always done.... track down and identify the accounts or individual reps. If we can do it for 20 years of secretive pro gamers, we can surely do it for alphastar. Happy Hunting my European brothers and sisters. I hope you talented fawks choke out this skynet wannabe! | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5529 Posts
On July 12 2019 05:25 AttackZerg wrote: What are the flags that people should be looking for? Does it use hotkeys? If not, that is a give away. I hope we are able to do what we have always done.... track down and identify the accounts or individual reps. If we can do it for 20 years of secretive pro gamers, we can surely do it for alphastar. Happy Hunting my European brothers and sisters. I hope you talented fawks choke out this skynet wannabe! Spikes of incredibly high apm if the show marches are anything to go by. Alongside god tier micro. Not sure if it uses hotkeys or not, you might be able to tell by looking back at the show matches when it shows its first person view | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On July 12 2019 03:07 oXoCube wrote: One very valid but highly specific criticism of one specific game it played does not undo the premise. I would also be pretty willing to bet that the new Protoss versions will still have a huge love affair with blink stalkers. Micro will always be the biggest strength of any good AI. That's a general criticism, not a specific one. Because it implies that AlphaStar learned to play the way it did because of its unfair mechanical advantage. Now if there is no mechanical advantage anymore it likely won't be able to get away with playing in such a strange way. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7475 Posts
Looks like a deadend . | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On July 12 2019 06:47 AttackZerg wrote: Upon checking the showmatch, at 1:14 minutes in they show mana v alphastar fpvods, looks like alphastar uses hotkeys in a very human fashion, but they do not show the replay variation where you can see which numbers it hotkeys what. Looks like a deadend . Yea, I'm sure they removed any obvious clues that its not human to help their research and keep it anonymous. Anything so basic like just "does it use hotkeys?" is never going to be a giveaway. | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
You can find these easily by looking at EU players and sorting by win rate and you will find both sorting by GM and Master several players with first game that date with a very high winrate and rating. Further evidence would be that they seem to already start at a very high rating not possible to reach with that few number of games, meaning they started playing with a high mmr (In the range of 4500-5800). It is of course possible that a lot of players started accounts the same date to impersonate alphastar and indeed some of lower rated ones could very well be human players starting from placement matches. There is also possible to start at the higher rating by playing unranked first I assume so it is hard to say something definite even of the higher accounts but it certainly seems likely they could be alphastar. It seems likely these accounts will continue to rise on the ladder, althought depending if there is not enough high mmr players opting in they may reach a ceiling. | ||
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