EPTAlphaStar released: Deepmind Research on Ladder - Page 2
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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imJealous
United States1382 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
Is there a version of the ladder in which we can help it design effective weapons to use against us? | ||
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
This could be easy, if 20 AlphaStar bots take the 20 top positions in GM... | ||
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Kalera
United States338 Posts
On July 11 2019 07:45 Xamo wrote: Clearly all AlphaStar bots will reach GM easily. They are going to play against most of our known streamers. Let's try to identify them! This could be easy, if 20 AlphaStar bots take the 20 top positions in GM... It's quite possible that AlphaStar agents will be excluded from appearing on ladder rankings entirely. | ||
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
The skynet has started - Resistance is futile! | ||
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pzlama333
United States282 Posts
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On July 11 2019 08:48 pzlama333 wrote: I would like to know which race may have higher win rate if AlphaStar fight themselves using different race against each others, so it may help the balance team. The problem remains: the balance at the non-human AI APM is totally different from that at human level. With that 2000 peak AI apm, blink stalker are way too OP for sure. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
On July 11 2019 08:51 jy_9876543210 wrote: The problem remains: the balance at the non-human AI APM is totally different from that at human level. With that 2000 peak AI apm, blink stalker are way too OP for sure. The AI's APM was limited to like 250 or so. Nonetheless, the efficiency at which they can control units on multiple screens gives them a huge advantage with using mass blink stalker. BUT that was with the non-camera restricted version. Not sure how much of an effect the camera restriction has. | ||
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lisuiasdf
China3 Posts
Maybe one day AlphaStar got better and SC2 became dead, then Blizzard would fill the ladder with AlphaStars of skill levels ranging from bronze to GM. They would be able to adjust active user count and pretend the game is still alive. lol | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On July 11 2019 09:37 Chronopolis wrote: The AI's APM was limited to like 250 or so. Nonetheless, the efficiency at which they can control units on multiple screens gives them a huge advantage with using mass blink stalker. BUT that was with the non-camera restricted version. Not sure how much of an effect the camera restriction has. No, that's the average APM of the whole match, I suppose? But what matters is the peak APM. You can keep your APM < 100 for the entire match, and at the last minute you raise your APM to 2000 and kill the entire army of your opponent with blink stalkers from 3 directions. Basically that's what happened in a match of AlphaStar vs Mana. The DeepMind team argued that human may also have such high peak APM - as TLO's APM chart showed. But the problem is, that APM peak happens because when he need to produce, say, a bunch of zerglings, he can just hold down the hotkey, and he can make 50 zerglings within half a second. Most of keyboards doesn't allow this, because when you type "abc", there is an input delay, otherwise you'll most likely type "aaabbcc" because the pulling rate is too high for human reaction. So if you hold down "a", you'll see that the first "a" appear immediately and after a small delay the rest of "a"s start to show up. But it's bad for SC2 gamers, especially zerg players because you often need to make a lot of units ASAP. So there exists such "accelerated" keyboards that can remove the delay, which is perfect for mass producing units. A lot of zerg players use it, and that APM most likely comes from producing a bunch of units instead of from a battle, I believe. So basically, that AI had inhuman APM. | ||
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yubo56
690 Posts
On July 11 2019 10:36 jy_9876543210 wrote: No, that's the average APM of the whole match, I suppose? But what matters is the peak APM. You can keep your APM < 100 for the entire match, and at the last minute you raise your APM to 2000 and kill the entire army of your opponent with blink stalkers from 3 directions. Basically that's what happened in a match of AlphaStar vs Mana. The DeepMind team argued that human may also have such high peak APM - as TLO's APM chart showed. But the problem is, that APM peak happens because when he need to produce, say, a bunch of zerglings, he can just hold down the hotkey, and he can make 50 zerglings within half a second. Most of keyboards doesn't allow this, because when you type "abc", there is an input delay, otherwise you'll most likely type "aaabbcc" because the pulling rate is too high for human reaction. So if you hold down "a", you'll see that the first "a" appear immediately and after a small delay the rest of "a"s start to show up. But it's bad for SC2 gamers, especially zerg players because you often need to make a lot of units ASAP. So there exists such "accelerated" keyboards that can remove the delay, which is perfect for mass producing units. A lot of zerg players use it, and that APM most likely comes from producing a bunch of units instead of from a battle, I believe. So basically, that AI had inhuman APM. They said they changed restrictions since that match after chatting with progamers, certain this was raised. Wonder how it was addressed Also, I'd guess they release not just their top boys but bots distributed across their training ladder. Would benchmark the strength of their ladder and thus training efficiency, e.g. "1 million games played produces bots 6k MMR and above 50% of the time" | ||
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KingofdaHipHop
United States25602 Posts
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gpanda
36 Posts
Maybe, in the end, SC2 is found not appropriate game for this AI project. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
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jy_9876543210
265 Posts
On July 11 2019 11:13 yubo56 wrote: They said they changed restrictions since that match after chatting with progamers, certain this was raised. Wonder how it was addressed Also, I'd guess they release not just their top boys but bots distributed across their training ladder. Would benchmark the strength of their ladder and thus training efficiency, e.g. "1 million games played produces bots 6k MMR and above 50% of the time" Oh, really? That would make more sense. I wonder what are the new restrictions too. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7584 Posts
On July 11 2019 12:09 NinjaNight wrote: Sounds like it's very rare to have a game against Alphastar? You can't just directly challenge it? How do you even know for sure if its Alphastar? They are purposely trying to keep it secret. When you hit ranked on EU there is a chance your get alphastar. (If you opt in to play it) | ||
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Ketroc
Canada74 Posts
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fastr
France902 Posts
When top ranked players stream and play against bar codes, it's already a common topic on twitch chat to try and guess who they are playing against. Given AlphaStar peculiar style of play and lack of in game chat, it shouldn't be hard to spot them. Hell, just ask your opponent if he's AlphaStar at the beginning of the game and you'll most likely get an answer. Looking at replays and analyzing play style and hotkey usage should remove any remaining doubts. If I was in the DeepMind team I would name some of the agents Serral Maru and Stats for the lulz and ask them not to spill the beans! | ||
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