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United Kingdom20335 Posts
On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?!
That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down.
but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player
If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder.
Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder.
A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
Yeah, I’ve never heard of a false positive with a hacking ban, plenty of hackers slip through the ban waves but I’ve neger heard of a wrongful ban
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 18 2019 05:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?! That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down. If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder. Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder. A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment.
Technically speaking he qualified without cheating so he is a legit 1v1 player... because he was banned based on his ladder, not his qualifier matches. You just want to be careful what you write  (in the end some pro players in the past defended cheating that it would be nice to be able to have some of the cheats from Blizzard as mods in the custom games because, surprise surprise, they are good for learning the game)
And I don't think that angry players are dragging the scene down. (not that this is a place to discuss this)
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I rarely post on TL, mainly just lurk, but when I saw that Purelegacy was banned from WCS I had to chime in and say WOOOOHOOOOOO.
I know that a lot of you guys have a bias against Protech, but let me tell you that in this case, he is 100% right about Purelegacy. The guy is a cheater, plain and simple.
Does he deserve a second chance? Maybe, I don't know. First thing he is going to have to do is deliver a real mea culpa to the community. His posts here and interview with Rotti are that of a psychopath who is still in denial.
Purelegacy, I know that you are going to read this. Dude, we're all human, and we all make mistakes. Winning is addicting, and so is using hacks. Stop lying and saying stuff like "I cheated in a 2v2 game 4 years ago." It pisses people off and doesn't help your standing. Admit to what you did. Admit to the constant stream sniping, the map hacks that you have used recently that everyone who plays 2v2 knows about. Just admit it, lay it on the table, and people will maybe start to respect you.
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Blizzard is extremely careful when it comes to Disqualifying people from WCS. If they DQ'ed him they probably have extremely good reasons for it and a boatload of evidence.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On June 18 2019 15:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2019 05:58 Cyro wrote:On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?! That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down. but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder. Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder. A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment. Technically speaking he qualified without cheating so he is a legit 1v1 player... because he was banned based on his ladder, not his qualifier matches. You just want to be careful what you write (in the end some pro players in the past defended cheating that it would be nice to be able to have some of the cheats from Blizzard as mods in the custom games because, surprise surprise, they are good for learning the game) And I don't think that angry players are dragging the scene down. (not that this is a place to discuss this)
That we know of.
If Blizzard could reliably detect hacks and quickly ban people from using them, we wouldn’t have people hacking to begin with, or at least for very long.
Best case scenario for the guy is he’s hacked for two separate short periods and got caught each time.
Given the 2v2 guys have said it very much was not isolated to small periods, that seems already unlikely.
Then for him to improve a lot (not to an unheard of) level in the prestige 1v1 mode, where the money in the game is; where there’s way more incentive to hack, and for him not to go to LANs while he’s striving to become a legit player.
Added to that his reputation with toxicity which he even lied about when Rotterdam gave him the chance to tell his side of things.
Doesn’t really point to on the balance of probability a guy who’s only hacked a few times, or a guy who is represent and wants to show he’s a legit player.
Angry players absolutely do damage scenes, they don’t kill them but they do limit them. More to do with hacking but the 2v2 guys in this thread said Purelegacy and his boys ruined the small competitive 2v2 scene that there was on NA.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 18 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2019 15:27 deacon.frost wrote:On June 18 2019 05:58 Cyro wrote:On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?! That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down. but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder. Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder. A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment. Technically speaking he qualified without cheating so he is a legit 1v1 player... because he was banned based on his ladder, not his qualifier matches. You just want to be careful what you write (in the end some pro players in the past defended cheating that it would be nice to be able to have some of the cheats from Blizzard as mods in the custom games because, surprise surprise, they are good for learning the game) And I don't think that angry players are dragging the scene down. (not that this is a place to discuss this) That we know of. If Blizzard could reliably detect hacks and quickly ban people from using them, we wouldn’t have people hacking to begin with, or at least for very long. Best case scenario for the guy is he’s hacked for two separate short periods and got caught each time. Given the 2v2 guys have said it very much was not isolated to small periods, that seems already unlikely. Then for him to improve a lot (not to an unheard of) level in the prestige 1v1 mode, where the money in the game is; where there’s way more incentive to hack, and for him not to go to LANs while he’s striving to become a legit player. Added to that his reputation with toxicity which he even lied about when Rotterdam gave him the chance to tell his side of things. Doesn’t really point to on the balance of probability a guy who’s only hacked a few times, or a guy who is represent and wants to show he’s a legit player. Angry players absolutely do damage scenes, they don’t kill them but they do limit them. More to do with hacking but the 2v2 guys in this thread said Purelegacy and his boys ruined the small competitive 2v2 scene that there was on NA.
The issue is we can't believe the 2v2 guys the same way you don't want to believe Purelegacy. They may be another Avilo - everyone is cheater and if somebody cheated before(which is a dick move) they may see hints here and there just because of their bias(losing doesn't help either).
The only person we can rely upon is Blizzard but the issue is - "recent". All they had to do was to release the replay of the said game or, at least, release the cheating date. Many of the discussion would be over as the "Recent" keyword would be replaced with the exact date.
We don't agree on angry players then.
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On June 18 2019 22:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 18 2019 15:27 deacon.frost wrote:On June 18 2019 05:58 Cyro wrote:On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?! That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down. but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder. Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder. A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment. Technically speaking he qualified without cheating so he is a legit 1v1 player... because he was banned based on his ladder, not his qualifier matches. You just want to be careful what you write (in the end some pro players in the past defended cheating that it would be nice to be able to have some of the cheats from Blizzard as mods in the custom games because, surprise surprise, they are good for learning the game) And I don't think that angry players are dragging the scene down. (not that this is a place to discuss this) That we know of. If Blizzard could reliably detect hacks and quickly ban people from using them, we wouldn’t have people hacking to begin with, or at least for very long. Best case scenario for the guy is he’s hacked for two separate short periods and got caught each time. Given the 2v2 guys have said it very much was not isolated to small periods, that seems already unlikely. Then for him to improve a lot (not to an unheard of) level in the prestige 1v1 mode, where the money in the game is; where there’s way more incentive to hack, and for him not to go to LANs while he’s striving to become a legit player. Added to that his reputation with toxicity which he even lied about when Rotterdam gave him the chance to tell his side of things. Doesn’t really point to on the balance of probability a guy who’s only hacked a few times, or a guy who is represent and wants to show he’s a legit player. Angry players absolutely do damage scenes, they don’t kill them but they do limit them. More to do with hacking but the 2v2 guys in this thread said Purelegacy and his boys ruined the small competitive 2v2 scene that there was on NA. The issue is we can't believe the 2v2 guys the same way you don't want to believe Purelegacy. They may be another Avilo - everyone is cheater and if somebody cheated before(which is a dick move) they may see hints here and there just because of their bias(losing doesn't help either). The only person we can rely upon is Blizzard but the issue is - "recent". All they had to do was to release the replay of the said game or, at least, release the cheating date. Many of the discussion would be over as the "Recent" keyword would be replaced with the exact date. We don't agree on angry players then.
I wonder then, based on your opinion, how long recent does the cheating incident has to be in order to warrant an in-game ban, and would you say that this period should be shorter for a player who qualified for WCS, if so, by how much?
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On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?!
Yeah a lot of those sound nuts. The worst I have done is float my CC into a corner or run drones around the map to build / cancel extractor and make opponent waste their time if I thought their build was particularly cheesy BS.
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United Kingdom20335 Posts
The issue is we can't believe the 2v2 guys the same way you don't want to believe Purelegacy. They may be
False equivalence, an absolute nobody has more credibility than a proven liar so it's not logical to treat them with an equal amount of doubt; that would be a pretty big bias. Two or three nobodies have far more credibility still.
Yeah a lot of those sound nuts. The worst I have done is float my CC into a corner or run drones around the map to build / cancel extractor and make opponent waste their time if I thought their build was particularly cheesy BS.
I've been known to alt tab and watch a movie without leaving a game if somebody is an asshole completely unprovoked when they're already winning. It's very odd IMO but it does happen quite a bit in sc2, especially in PvZ and PvT. Some people take extreme personal offense to you building certain units even if they're objectively bad like carriers on the current patch.
That's not really as much an angry emotional reaction as it is an attempt to train toxic people like dogs; if everyone were to do that, perhaps they would think for a second longer before threatening to rape your mother.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On June 18 2019 22:50 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2019 22:31 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 18 2019 15:27 deacon.frost wrote:On June 18 2019 05:58 Cyro wrote:On June 17 2019 22:18 DBooN wrote:On June 17 2019 12:21 Gen.Rolly wrote:
If we're honest with ourselves, we've all probably done or said some messed up stuff on Bnet. Competitive games like StarCraft bring out both the best and worst. Regrettably, I've cursed people out, used every kind of derogatory slur, spammed personal chats, made veiled (empty) threats on players that angered me, and even unfriended a brother.
I think the punishment should fit the crime. PureLegacy's prior actions have no doubt hurt the community, but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player, removing him from the competitive community actually hurts the scene. I think a more reasonable action on Blizzard's behalf would be to place a monetary fine on players that have behaved badly but are otherwise legit players (not saying PureLegacy is), who have truly repented and want to do right by the community and remain part of it. I have done none of these things, what the hell?! That is absolutely not normal and it disturbs me that you think that it is. Those kinds of behaviors (by a minority of people) are dragging SC2 and society as a whole down. but if in fact he is a legit 1v1 player If he were a legitimate player he almost certainly (definitely beyond reasonable doubt) wouldn't have had his WCS-qualified account banned for hacking on the ladder. Looking ONLY at hacking, all other behaviors aside; I can't recall a single incident in SC2 - ever - where Blizzard claimed that a player hacked but they were later proven innocent. It actually strongly tends to be the opposite with well known hackers terrorizing the game for years at a time without bans, even in the top fraction of a percent of the ladder. A shred of doubt is healthy but the widespread front-page-news community perception of more than that is downright illogical at the moment. Technically speaking he qualified without cheating so he is a legit 1v1 player... because he was banned based on his ladder, not his qualifier matches. You just want to be careful what you write (in the end some pro players in the past defended cheating that it would be nice to be able to have some of the cheats from Blizzard as mods in the custom games because, surprise surprise, they are good for learning the game) And I don't think that angry players are dragging the scene down. (not that this is a place to discuss this) That we know of. If Blizzard could reliably detect hacks and quickly ban people from using them, we wouldn’t have people hacking to begin with, or at least for very long. Best case scenario for the guy is he’s hacked for two separate short periods and got caught each time. Given the 2v2 guys have said it very much was not isolated to small periods, that seems already unlikely. Then for him to improve a lot (not to an unheard of) level in the prestige 1v1 mode, where the money in the game is; where there’s way more incentive to hack, and for him not to go to LANs while he’s striving to become a legit player. Added to that his reputation with toxicity which he even lied about when Rotterdam gave him the chance to tell his side of things. Doesn’t really point to on the balance of probability a guy who’s only hacked a few times, or a guy who is represent and wants to show he’s a legit player. Angry players absolutely do damage scenes, they don’t kill them but they do limit them. More to do with hacking but the 2v2 guys in this thread said Purelegacy and his boys ruined the small competitive 2v2 scene that there was on NA. The issue is we can't believe the 2v2 guys the same way you don't want to believe Purelegacy. They may be another Avilo - everyone is cheater and if somebody cheated before(which is a dick move) they may see hints here and there just because of their bias(losing doesn't help either). The only person we can rely upon is Blizzard but the issue is - "recent". All they had to do was to release the replay of the said game or, at least, release the cheating date. Many of the discussion would be over as the "Recent" keyword would be replaced with the exact date. We don't agree on angry players then.
They could do that sure, and probably should because a section of the community can’t read and think he’s banned for being BM, and another part think ‘recent’ refers to 2015 so maybe that needs clarified. I don’t personally think it does, seems pretty obvious getting banned right around a recent ban wave is linked.
I’m rather unsure what recourse a player has in appealing either, I’d hazard a guess that he cheated and he knows that going that route will cut off the option for him playing the victim and bring it out in the open.
I think it’s admirable to not jump to conclusions but with this case it seems people are pushing way past giving someone the benefit of the doubt territory
I don’t know, maybe players being angry and toxic is good for communities, I personally highly doubt it but I don’t really have any data to back it up whatsoever. I don’t play DoTA or CS for those reasons, night shifts throw my gaming time (which is already limited vs me as a teen) out of sync with my friends who play, and I just find solo queuing a terrible use of my time when I’m trying to relax.
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It's kind of sad that his account wasn't banned long before. If he didn't hack again he could still be competing on the newest account. They said he just couldn't compete on this said account that they took forever to take actions about.
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United Kingdom20335 Posts
On June 19 2019 02:26 Devin1337 wrote:
It's kind of sad that his account wasn't banned long before. If he didn't hack again he could still be competing on the newest account.
IDD. There shouldn't really have been an instant second chance just because of paying a bit of money or abusing free to play. Ban evasion is a serious offense by itself.
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EPT
