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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 03 2019 12:19 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 12:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On June 03 2019 07:52 Nakajin wrote:
Ouch if Kim Phan leaves too it's another bad oment for us, she has been at the head of the boat for a long time and she seemed like one of the last who had an interest in brand/community protection.
Blizzard has been hemorrhaging active users for 2 years. They are down to 32 million active users. It doesn't matter what the esports people do if no new games are coming out and the current games have content that is not keeping the current user base interested. The way things are going it doesn't matter what Kim Phan does. Stopping the bleeding at Blizzard depends on the teams of game makers building great new games. I disagree. If you look at CS:GO and LoL, both games are still extremely popular to play and watch right now. There's new professional players entering into the scene, there's constant patches to the game (for LoL) where new champions are released or balance is changed, and just overall there's a lot more action from the developers. Whereas with SC2, the only thing that changed from an esports perspective are the map pool. I can't say much about the other esports since I don't watch or play them, but isn't Dota and Fortnite also extremely popular? I thought they both have a very active and healthy esports scene?
Partially apples and oranges, partially a direct no.
1) Both CS:GO and LoL are team games. While this doesn't seem important it brings up the thing that "I didn't fuck up, team mates are bad" and people bring their friends to play with them. This isn't a factor for SC2 e-sport. (while people may bring their friends for arcade or coop)
2) Actually I dare to say that SC2 is pretty stable in terms of users. but because the game is very difficult and its sole focus is 1v1 it attracts only limited amount of people. Which means Sc2 won't be ever big(at least not as big as BW in Korea). This brings the fact that Blizzard doesn't pump much money into SC2 development and rather into the scene.
To be fair, CS:GO doesn't get much either, does it? 
+ Show Spoiler +Edit> What I mean is that CS:GO gets maps, skins(same as SC2), recently new mode(coop in SC2 can be an example too), went F2P recently(same with SC2, just different dates). The game is just more played, "that's all" 
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the fact that they have skins and crates means they have a sizable amount more, espeically for someone getting into the game and long-term players with hundreds of skins to trade and keep track of to farm their steam wallet.
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There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title.
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On June 03 2019 18:21 MrFreeman wrote:
There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title.
Total War: Three Kingdoms is only like 30% RTS, but it's pretty bad ass, be the most mundane esport ever though
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On June 03 2019 18:32 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 18:21 MrFreeman wrote:
There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title. Total War: Three Kingdoms is only like 30% RTS, but it's pretty bad ass, be the most mundane esport ever though
Yes, TW games are super popular and well made. Also, I have higher hopes for C&C remastered and WC3 Reforged.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On June 03 2019 17:35 Pandain wrote:
If Kim is leaving you know something is fucked up
Yeah this doesn't look good...
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
Well it took longer than I thought, this merger has started to see the Activision hallmarks start to damage their assets, in this case the culture of Blizzard.
Sure you can’t put a number on it and Blizzard isn’t perfect but it has a lot of loyal fans for a reason, the company had people who knew their games and had a passion for their products, and connections with the fans.
Between some OG guys leaving, other layoffs, this and other stuff that’s leaked out, and the Diablo Immortal debacle, none of these individually are nails in the coffin, together they do point to a worrying trend indeed.
There was only going to be friction between a company with a ‘when it’s done’ ethos and one that pushes games out annually in some of their series. Made no sense to me at the time
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Northern Ireland26244 Posts
On June 03 2019 18:47 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 18:32 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On June 03 2019 18:21 MrFreeman wrote:
There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title. Total War: Three Kingdoms is only like 30% RTS, but it's pretty bad ass, be the most mundane esport ever though Yes, TW games are super popular and well made. Also, I have higher hopes for C&C remastered and WC3 Reforged.
Being good is sadly not enough in today’s market, arena FPS has similar issues, I think people just prefer to play mechanically easier games, or team games rather than brutally mechanically difficult games who are primarily balanced around 1v1 and get your arse handed to you. I personally prefer RTS and arena shooters over everything else, so I hope I’m wrong and we have some more big hits.
I’d hazard a guess the average Liquidian is considerably older than the average gamer on other online communities and subreddits
My hopes are high for Warcraft Reforged if they don’t fuck it up, it’s a great, great game for one. I found it the most fun to just play casually back in the day, but is also fun competitively. It is the granddaddy of MOBAs mechanically so I think players of those games who haven’t played it or maybe even RTS at all will give it a shot. Likewise WoW fans who like the universe but maybe haven’t played the strategy games in that universe.
I’m hopeful it’ll do well in this regard, as I am hopeful any time an RTS launches, even ones I don’t actually like. Shows the demand is there.
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On June 03 2019 18:47 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 18:32 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On June 03 2019 18:21 MrFreeman wrote:
There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title. Total War: Three Kingdoms is only like 30% RTS, but it's pretty bad ass, be the most mundane esport ever though Yes, TW games are super popular and well made. Also, I have higher hopes for C&C remastered and WC3 Reforged.
How is C&C remastered *at all* interesting from an e-sports point of view? Either it's a graphic update, which leaves it a fun, but fundamentally unbalanced and 1-dimensional game, or it's not "remastered"?
WC3 Reforged could breathe life into the stale WC3 community, but I prefer SC2 over WC3 as a game. Both to play and to watch.
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On June 03 2019 21:07 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 18:47 gTank wrote:On June 03 2019 18:32 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:On June 03 2019 18:21 MrFreeman wrote:
There is still money to be made in RTS and some interesting RTS games still come out. If blizz implodes, we can just switch to another title. Total War: Three Kingdoms is only like 30% RTS, but it's pretty bad ass, be the most mundane esport ever though Yes, TW games are super popular and well made. Also, I have higher hopes for C&C remastered and WC3 Reforged. How is C&C remastered *at all* interesting from an e-sports point of view? Either it's a graphic update, which leaves it a fun, but fundamentally unbalanced and 1-dimensional game, or it's not "remastered"? WC3 Reforged could breathe life into the stale WC3 community, but I prefer SC2 over WC3 as a game. Both to play and to watch.
Afaik there is a competitive scene for C&C games.WC3 is still going somewhat strong despite of the game being that old.
If reforged is a success, maybe that inspires others to do good RTS as well? I would like that.
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The company makes record revenue but still fires valuable employee...
Disgusting as usual.
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Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys.
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Canada8989 Posts
On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys.
Yes and no, more viewership doesn't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money coming in, and for sure doesn't make running WCS-GSL by themselves a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport.
Dosen't mean running a SC2 scene is necessarily a bad idea business wise, but it's certainly something that can go away if you put people in charge with different idea on the role of esport in the company.
Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843
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On June 04 2019 01:10 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys. Yes and no, more viewership dosen't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money, and for sure dosen't make running WCS-GSL a by themself a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport. Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843
Now you're making me VERY nervous 
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This is certainly bad news for SC2, but IMO the more concerning thing for Blizzard as a whole is the ridiculous amount of money they and others they've encouraged have poured into Overwatch esports. Financially speaking, Starcraft is barely a blip on their radar in comparison. But now they're in a place where they have to maintain Overwatch and all the infrastructure they've built around it (because remember that they run the league themselves, and have a large number of multimillion dollar sponsors to answer to) for a long, long time. All for a game that isn't -- and possibly isn't even capable of being -- all that fun to watch on its own.
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Blizzard without Bunny, this doesn't look good :/.
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On June 04 2019 01:10 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys. Yes and no, more viewership doesn't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money coming in, and for sure doesn't make running WCS-GSL by themselves a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport. Dosen't mean running a SC2 scene is necessarily a bad idea business wise, but it's certainly something that can go away if you put people in charge with different idea on the role of esport in the company. Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843
Yeah I hear what you're saying but when you can still launch a skin pack and generate near a million dollars I don't see any business deciding to drop that part of their market - someone will be supplying RTS to the RTS market - as of now it's blizzard and hopefully remains that way.
Also - that article really doesn't do much other than hand wave - obviously the claims about esports becoming the NFL were ridiculous to begin with - but that doesn't mean we should expect a market to collapse that's been alive 25+ years (thanks to Kr and BW). Numbers most likely are inflated - but theres no reason to believe there was some revolutionary technology developed this year that made them go up - they are still up relative to last year - which points to growing vs. dying etc.
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On June 04 2019 04:44 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 01:10 Nakajin wrote:On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys. Yes and no, more viewership doesn't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money coming in, and for sure doesn't make running WCS-GSL by themselves a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport. Dosen't mean running a SC2 scene is necessarily a bad idea business wise, but it's certainly something that can go away if you put people in charge with different idea on the role of esport in the company. Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843 Yeah I hear what you're saying but when you can still launch a skin pack and generate near a million dollars I don't see any business deciding to drop that part of their market - someone will be supplying RTS to the RTS market - as of now it's blizzard and hopefully remains that way. Also - that article really doesn't do much other than hand wave - obviously the claims about esports becoming the NFL were ridiculous to begin with - but that doesn't mean we should expect a market to collapse that's been alive 25+ years (thanks to Kr and BW). Numbers most likely are inflated - but theres no reason to believe there was some revolutionary technology developed this year that made them go up - they are still up relative to last year - which points to growing vs. dying etc.
Well the problem is that the more common knowledge it become the more sponsors get to realize that the views doesnt mean what they were told they meant. The reason the numbers are inflated is because the orgs are courting sponsors, and we all know what happens when there are no more sponsors.
Sure esport wont go away but it can shrink, seeing as how massively big some esports have gotten it can shrink quite significantly.
As to your arguement about skin packs, sure ofc no company would drop that part, unless it also meant increased costs for support, development, tournament costs and so on. It is possible that the actual gains from sc2 isnt near what you think.
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On June 04 2019 05:11 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 04:44 DomeGetta wrote:On June 04 2019 01:10 Nakajin wrote:On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys. Yes and no, more viewership doesn't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money coming in, and for sure doesn't make running WCS-GSL by themselves a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport. Dosen't mean running a SC2 scene is necessarily a bad idea business wise, but it's certainly something that can go away if you put people in charge with different idea on the role of esport in the company. Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843 Yeah I hear what you're saying but when you can still launch a skin pack and generate near a million dollars I don't see any business deciding to drop that part of their market - someone will be supplying RTS to the RTS market - as of now it's blizzard and hopefully remains that way. Also - that article really doesn't do much other than hand wave - obviously the claims about esports becoming the NFL were ridiculous to begin with - but that doesn't mean we should expect a market to collapse that's been alive 25+ years (thanks to Kr and BW). Numbers most likely are inflated - but theres no reason to believe there was some revolutionary technology developed this year that made them go up - they are still up relative to last year - which points to growing vs. dying etc. Well the problem is that the more common knowledge it become the more sponsors get to realize that the views doesnt mean what they were told they meant. The reason the numbers are inflated is because the orgs are courting sponsors, and we all know what happens when there are no more sponsors. Sure esport wont go away but it can shrink, seeing as how massively big some esports have gotten it can shrink quite significantly. As to your arguement about skin packs, sure ofc no company would drop that part, unless it also meant increased costs for support, development, tournament costs and so on. It is possible that the actual gains from sc2 isnt near what you think.
Yeah I'm gonna take a crazy guess and say they wouldn't be on the 6th or so skin pack by now if they were losing money on it lol - strong community brings sponsorship - sponsorship helps keep the scene alive - I'm just pointing out that there is a huge difference between "not becoming the NFL" and everyone starting a twitch picnic chant that esports is dying because somebody at blizz is gone or an article showed that viewership numbers are suspect - SC was alive before all of that - and will be alive after!
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On June 04 2019 05:24 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 05:11 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 04 2019 04:44 DomeGetta wrote:On June 04 2019 01:10 Nakajin wrote:On June 04 2019 00:54 DomeGetta wrote:
Viewership is literally doubling last year - Blizzard is a business - they are going to continue to act like a business - as long as the community stays strong we are going to be fine boys. Yes and no, more viewership doesn't necessarily mean a considerably bigger amount of money coming in, and for sure doesn't make running WCS-GSL by themselves a profitable activity, also viewership metric are questionable, I'm gonna try to find the article I read it in, but basically number are generally inflated across the board in esport. Dosen't mean running a SC2 scene is necessarily a bad idea business wise, but it's certainly something that can go away if you put people in charge with different idea on the role of esport in the company. Edit: there it is https://kotaku.com/as-esports-grows-experts-fear-its-a-bubble-ready-to-po-1834982843 Yeah I hear what you're saying but when you can still launch a skin pack and generate near a million dollars I don't see any business deciding to drop that part of their market - someone will be supplying RTS to the RTS market - as of now it's blizzard and hopefully remains that way. Also - that article really doesn't do much other than hand wave - obviously the claims about esports becoming the NFL were ridiculous to begin with - but that doesn't mean we should expect a market to collapse that's been alive 25+ years (thanks to Kr and BW). Numbers most likely are inflated - but theres no reason to believe there was some revolutionary technology developed this year that made them go up - they are still up relative to last year - which points to growing vs. dying etc. Well the problem is that the more common knowledge it become the more sponsors get to realize that the views doesnt mean what they were told they meant. The reason the numbers are inflated is because the orgs are courting sponsors, and we all know what happens when there are no more sponsors. Sure esport wont go away but it can shrink, seeing as how massively big some esports have gotten it can shrink quite significantly. As to your arguement about skin packs, sure ofc no company would drop that part, unless it also meant increased costs for support, development, tournament costs and so on. It is possible that the actual gains from sc2 isnt near what you think. Yeah I'm gonna take a crazy guess and say they wouldn't be on the 6th or so skin pack by now if they were losing money on it lol - strong community brings sponsorship - sponsorship helps keep the scene alive - I'm just pointing out that there is a huge difference between "not becoming the NFL" and everyone starting a twitch picnic chant that esports is dying because somebody at blizz is gone or an article showed that viewership numbers are suspect - SC was alive before all of that - and will be alive after!
Oh my god You really dont understand. I'm not saying they arent making money "on the skin pack", I'm saying they aren't making money on sc2.
If they have decided to support GSL, WCS and have blizzcon + all the price money, +continuous support of sc2. Patch wise and support wise. Either they can go minus minus minus in their budget (only minus) or they could make s skin pack and maybe lose less money on sc2.
It is worth it for Riot for example,, "league of legends", because the amount of money they make on cosmetic in-game items are insane compared to sc2. If they believe the league increases sales they can do it, because running those leagues might lose them money but league of legends as a whole business makes money. SC2 has almost no income but tons of costs, of course sc2 doesn't make money for the company anymore. I would be surprised if they ever broke even (besides when actually selling the games).
If you acutally think SC2 is still making Blizz money we are simply at an impasse, we wont get any farther in these discussions.
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EPT
