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On April 19 2019 06:00 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2019 13:02 kickina wrote:
Going by average player strength, and amount of rounds required to win, GSL Code S is objectively the hardest tournament to win in SC2. So if GSL is "objectively" the hardest tournament to win why does Maru not even reach the finals in everything else? Should be easy for him if GSL is so much harder.
???
OSL, SSL, WESG... an IEM where he lost to life if i recall correctly. I'm totally fine with not considering him as GOAT. But sometimes i'm wondering what you guys are talking about...
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gsl is not only the hardest tournament but it is also formatted very differently from every other premier tournament. the format generally favors his style and preparation. i don't think there is a real goat of starcraft 2 we haven't had the stability in any champion over a looong period of time. sure, there are lots of streaks and times where one player has dominated insanely for a short amount of time, but the meta shifts so quickly it seems like it is difficult for any one player to shine in various metas.
imo, an emergent goat would most likely be a zerg just based on how reactive play is favored and this has been the case for a long time
edit: i think the closest exception to this rule would be MVP
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After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Innovation says hi.
Even though I'm sure everyone cares about winning, I feel as if most pros don't put nearly as much effort into it as they used to. Maybe that's false. Major said he practiced 30-40 games a day or something. But I feel like the passion or drive isn't really there like it used to be... I can barely blame Maru for losing in Ro32.
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
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On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
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Why argue? Is Maru really disputable?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah 
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Northern Ireland25228 Posts
On May 15 2019 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea. It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it. Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well.
Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup.
Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool.
They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware.
Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully.
Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting.
I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 15 2019 20:34 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea. It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it. Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well. Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup. Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool. They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware. Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully. Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting. I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell.
I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected)
GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament.
So, again, it's not just about the format.
Edit> If some top player ignores Code S then it's theirs fault, not Code S'. Because Code S is open to everyone, not like the rest. If you have master account you can go into qualifications.
Katowice are in the shadow zone as the top players are mostly from Korea and Korea - Poland travel cost for local qualis are so huge. (that's IMO)
Edit2> Also because of the European qualification which is bad for the top players from Korea which "lowers" the quality of the player pool. again, that's IMO.
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Northern Ireland25228 Posts
On May 15 2019 20:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 20:34 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 15 2019 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea. It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it. Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well. Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup. Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool. They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware. Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully. Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting. I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell. I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected) GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament. So, again, it's not just about the format.
How is it when it runs for so long and necessitates a stay in Korea to facilitate that, and has offline qualifiers to boot? Yes but the qualifications are hard, they also don’t guarantee the best Ro32 field you can have every time. I don’t think they use a good format at all for it tbh. Also the GSL both seeds more players, but also does group picks on that basis vs say IEM Katowice.
GSL isn’t really any more stacked than Katowice, certainly not really when it’s at Ro32 level, and in terms of legitimate title contenders each season it shares the same players with those other tournaments, bar Serral I suppose. A tournament like WESG absolutely lacks depth and sufficient Korean presence for sure though.
Who’s assuming JAGW = the old Kespa regime? Presumably they do something useful there and there’s enough hints in terms of what comes out that they do smart in-house practice.
Maru can debut a style of mech at Super Tournament that seemed to have a lot of work put into it and was pretty damn refined, that was also pretty new and also distinct from Gumiho’s mech vP, which was less hidden and new.
Or Maru’s prep vP where he crushes everyone, vs $o$ dismantling him at Blizzcon in his usual madcap fashion.
Maru sometimes looking shaky in groups vs looking insane in the latter stages, there’s enough there reading between the lines to see the benefits of their setup in this format. Maru looks stronger the later GSL goes and the more of his teammates have fallen by the wayside in GSL.
But no we don’t know, I presume that sOs, who’s One of the smarter players out there strategically but whose execution sometimes isn’t the best, living in a house with Maru who is Mr Top Execution in the game probably confers some kind of advantage when it comes to prep tournaments, never mind the rest of the JAGW cast who are all bloody good.
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On May 15 2019 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea. It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it. Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
IEM Katowice is actually ahead of GSL in terms of the pure "best players" criterion. Theoretically every player can be a Korean via qualifiers because server qualifiers aren't restricted. This is why we only had Koreans qualifying through the American Qualifier. The only issue could be seen in the EU qualifier being unfavorable to Koreans due to lag, but then again the top3 EU players should be considered CodeS material. This way IEM features all the best Koreans and the few best Foreigners of a time while GSL normally lacks the best foreigners who can outmatch some CodeS-Koreans. The fact that there were foreigners qualifying via offline qualifiers over Koreans solidifies my point.
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it's not like maru does anything crazy in gsl while having a long time to prepare. he plays pretty straight up and probably get an edge here and there based on his knowledge of his opponents' tendencies. that, i think, makes him even better. his preparation is not to go insane with builds that directly counter his opponents' strategies but rather soft counter their tendencies. i still don't think there is a clear goat though
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On May 15 2019 20:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 20:34 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 15 2019 16:30 deacon.frost wrote:On May 15 2019 15:48 Dave4 wrote:On May 15 2019 10:29 Blargh wrote:After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?” Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them. I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating. The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments). Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder. Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format. So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea. It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it. Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well. Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup. Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool. They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware. Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully. Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting. I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell. I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected) GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament. So, again, it's not just about the format. Edit> If some top player ignores Code S then it's theirs fault, not Code S'. Because Code S is open to everyone, not like the rest. If you have master account you can go into qualifications. Katowice are in the shadow zone as the top players are mostly from Korea and Korea - Poland travel cost for local qualis are so huge. (that's IMO) Edit2> Also because of the European qualification which is bad for the top players from Korea which "lowers" the quality of the player pool. again, that's IMO.
I like how you point out that everyone can qualify for Code S and how easy it is to attend qualifiers and 1 sentence later you say how unfair the qualification for Katowice is because Korean have to travel there....
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Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
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On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote:
Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title.
A litte premature, don't you think?
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On June 02 2019 00:26 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote:
Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. A litte premature, don't you think?
I guess it depends on how you observe it.
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On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote:
Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
Innovation who has only made consecutive RO8's once against the guy who won 4 in a row? Innovation, the king of throwing won games and getting reverse swept when it seems impossible?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote:
Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
Sure, he just made something no one else on this planet ever done but yeah. Trolling or waT?
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On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote:
Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
Totally agree, I remember way back then people started to consider MVP's record as being way better than Nestea due to the 3 Code S + GSL WC.
Like, IIRC, the WC was a 16 person Invitational where half the players were foreigners (who at the time were very weak compared to Code S players). Some Koreans were invited due to popularity despite already having fallen off, like Tester who was considered a top player during the Beta but wasn't able to keep that up. Winning the WC was much much easier than winning a Code S tournament involving 32 Code S Koreans.
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hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
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On June 02 2019 18:50 CicadaSC wrote:
hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
Could not disagree more, especially since some of the ex-kespa players came out and said that they got better after they were no longer doing 12-hours/day gaming.
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EPT
