And Then There Was One: Maru Becomes the Greatest GSL Player
by Mizenhauer
The GSL is Korean StarCraft II’s most prestigious competition, creating countless historic moments and crowning nearly all of the game's legendary players since the first GSL Open in the summer of 2010. Nearly nine years later, we are bearing witness to a player who is more legendary and historic than all who preceded him. With his fourth consecutive Code S title in hand, it's clear that Maru is a level above all others in the GSL.
Last year, after Maru won his then-unheard of third straight Code S title, I posited that only three players in GSL history could compare to him in significance: Nestea, for being the only player to win back to back Code S titles and possessing the only perfect Code S title run; soO, for reaching four consecutive Code S finals; and Mvp, for his unmatched tally of four GSL championships (3 Code S + GSL WC).
Since the start of 2018, Maru has made a rapid ascent up the ladder of greatness. Winning his second consecutive Code S tied NesTea’s eight-year-old record. Maru's third straight Code S title broke Nestea's record and gave Maru a unique accomplishment of his own. Just reaching the finals for the fourth season in a row saw him match soO in sheer consistency. And now, by winning his fourth consecutive Code S title, it's clear that not even Mvp can rival Maru's greatness.
Should anyone contend that there's still room to debate Maru's status as the greatest GSL player ever, here are some records to consider (via Code S facts and Liquipedia). He’s won Code S four times, the most of any player in history (the vaunted Mvp may have four GSL titles, but only three were in Code S). Maru also reached the Code S semifinals on another four occasions, which gives him the most top four finishes of any Code S player. Maru has also played the most Code S matches in history with 286, and is tied for the second most tournament appearances at eighteen (only GuMiho has more appearances with nineteen). If Maru hadn't had the misfortune of playing Zest in the first Code A of LotV, he would have played in an unbroken streak of Code S tournaments since mid-2013.
We can safely say no one saw this coming. When Maru debuted as a blazing-fast 14-year-old prodigy in the very first Season of GSL, the most we could expect was that he'd have a career as a progamer. But even that modest prediction seemed off as he languished in obscurity for the next two years.
That all changed in the in his 2013 OnGameNet Starleague (OSL) Royal Road run, where he went from notorious cheeser to top-tier player in the course of one event. The KeSPA giant and defending OSL champion Rain was defeated by a diminutive Terran who’d been more novelty than championship contender for the first three years of his career.
The first half of 2014 was a trying period for Terrans in Code S, but Maru shined brilliantly as the sole Terran hope in the Code S playoffs for two consecutive seasons. However, he was overshadowed later that year when INnoVation won the final Code S tournament of the year, becoming the first Terran to win Code S since Mvp nine seasons earlier.
Though Maru added to his championship resume by winning the inaugural StarCraft II Starleague (SSL) in 2015, he failed to be a credible title contender in GSL Code S. He only made two semifinals between 2015 and 2017, and didn’t look particularly competitive in either of his defeats (vs INnoVation and GuMiho respectively).
Heading into 2018, Maru was the owner of a glass-half-empty legacy. His micro and multi-tasking made it clear that he was unquestionably one of the most physically talented players to play the game. His two titles in individual majors, and position as a bonafide ace on a Proleague winning team gave him the resume of an undeniably great player. But compared to players of seemingly similar skill—the sOs', INnoVation's, the Zest's—he was was found lacking in historical impact. Maru was excellent at the game of StarCraft II, but he was no legend of the esport.
What came next was the greatest period of uninterrupted dominance in GSL Code S history. In 2018, Maru codified and optimized the Terran metas of his time, maximizing the potential of Ravens and the Proxed-buildings on his way to three consecutive Code S titles. In 2019, he has continued to innovate new strategies or optimize those which had already been established, whether it be devastating two-base timings against Protoss or the latest iteration of split-map Terran against Zerg. Maru has always had the potential to execute at a level no one else can, but he’s graduated to being able to summon this transcendent form nearly at will. In doing so, he's assumed the role of the fourth race, a player unbound from the rules that govern all others.
How he managed to elevate his already transcendent talents to this level will endure as one of StarCraft’s greatest mysteries. Maru's 2017 was unremarkable by his standards—he failed to qualify for BlizzCon, while a 2nd place finish at WESG was his highlight of the year. The only hint Maru has given is his utter refusal to claim individual credit, always praising the support of his Jin Air teammates after every victory.
Also central to Maru’s success is the fact that his drive to become a champion hasn’t diminished in the slightest. He’s had every opportunity to rest on his laurels—even before his latest triumph against Classic, his third straight title had already made him the greatest GSL player in the minds of all but the stingiest critics and historians. His seemingly unquenchable thirst to win more is exactly why he's positioned as the favorite to win Code S for the fifth season in a row.
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
GSL has been going on for so long - even by 2013 most of the old guard that people associate with early GSLs (Mvp, Nestea, MC, MMA) were on the decline or competing in the foreign scene.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
Unless he faces another Terran in the playoffs, I doubt Maru will lose a GSL, well, ever. So long as the other Terrans keep dying before they can face Maru......
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The first seed advantage has been around for ages though and no one has ever been able to utilize it to win even 2 code s in a row. Much less 4. Being able to choose who you want to play out of the top 16 in code S means you are still going to be choosing one of the best players in the world.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote:On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base.
Why not put on Code A with the perennial foreigners trying to make it into Code S (Has/Rex/TW players generally, Unity House) along with whatever fan favorite WOL/HOTS-players that make up the 3rd and 4th place spots in those qualification groups? I presume lack of money and fan interest, but put four Code S spots up for grabs in Code A, make it a weekender and I think you've got a pretty great tournament.
On April 16 2019 09:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: But Maru didn't win with a broken back so idk
Nah, Maru doesn't have to play as much to be that good, so he doesn't even get a broken back.
On April 16 2019 11:40 IshinShishi wrote: look at that Mvp winrate, underrated I say.
MVP didn't play half as long in GSL as Maru and he spent the latter years of his career in foreignerland - he wouldn't have been successful in GSL at that time. One could easily pick the best 3 years of Maru and come out with a better winrate than MVP's.
Nice article, good read But is it really a mystery why Maru became so strong? Wasn't it said in the WCS Signature movie that he was training alone for years and then started to communicate more and train with his teammates and that's why he began to rise to the top? Hmm maybe i don't remember correctly. Aah nvm, didn't follow the link..
Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The first seed advantage has been around for ages though and no one has ever been able to utilize it to win even 2 code s in a row. Much less 4. Being able to choose who you want to play out of the top 16 in code S means you are still going to be choosing one of the best players in the world.
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
Maru when he's on his game looks untouchable. It's a simple matter of motivation by the look of it to me. The fact he still loses to teammates in televised matches to me just seems very meta, and more of a product of the quality of the JAGW team house than anything else.
The fact is. Even after losing a few tournaments in between his last Code S win and this one, he looked DOMINANT in this tournament. Not just a little bit either. The fact that he's able to string together these kinds of records and look unstoppable while doing so is something I just have not seen in all my time watching SC2.
GSL code S is the pinnacle of starcraft 2 though. That's how its always been, sure Blizzcon exists but we have always regarded the GSL champions as the greatest players, not the dreamhack winner or the blizzcon winner. Maru is utterly dominating the hardest tournament in the world in four consecutive seasons, greatest gsl player = greatest player.
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
Considering that in the past year he lost twice to sOs in RO8 we can talk about the fact that since the KeSPA entered SC2 we had the privilege to see a plenty of teamkills which resulted in the underdog winning in a quite convincing fashion. When you practice thousands of games per year with your teammate one will read the other like a book, in this case sOs reads Maru. Also he got beaten by Rogue in RO4 of IEM(and after I saw Maru v Rogue Code S Season 2 RO8 I'm pretty sure it was because Rogue was that good). Then we have the Classic defeat in GSL ST1 and one from Stats in GSL vs TW at RO4.
I believe that covers it. Except this years IEM Maru didn't finish under RO8 in weekenders.
3 times beaten by a team mate, 2 times(3 with Inno @ WESG) by somebody else and 1 bad tournament. Out of those "beaten by somebody else" we have a RO8, RO4(2 RO4 with Inno).
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
Considering that in the past year he lost twice to sOs in RO8 we can talk about the fact that since the KeSPA entered SC2 we had the privilege to see a plenty of teamkills which resulted in the underdog winning in a quite convincing fashion. When you practice thousands of games per year with your teammate one will read the other like a book, in this case sOs reads Maru. Also he got beaten by Rogue in RO4 of IEM(and after I saw Maru v Rogue Code S Season 2 RO8 I'm pretty sure it was because Rogue was that good). Then we have the Classic defeat in GSL ST1 and one from Stats in GSL vs TW at RO4.
I believe that covers it. Except this years IEM Maru didn't finish under RO8 in weekenders.
3 times beaten by a team mate, 2 times(3 with Inno @ WESG) by somebody else and 1 bad tournament. Out of those "beaten by somebody else" we have a RO8, RO4(2 RO4 with Inno).
Geez, what a loser.
my point is not making him a loser though. The post I'm replying to says to stop talking about "the best GSL has seen" and move on to saying "best anywhere cause he is unbeatable" when in reality he is only unbeatable in GSL, hence what everyone else is saying is in fact correct.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The champion first pick thing has been around forever though.
No champion from 2013 until Maru even managed to make ro4 the season after they won.
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
Maru when he's on his game looks untouchable. It's a simple matter of motivation by the look of it to me. The fact he still loses to teammates in televised matches to me just seems very meta, and more of a product of the quality of the JAGW team house than anything else.
The fact is. Even after losing a few tournaments in between his last Code S win and this one, he looked DOMINANT in this tournament. Not just a little bit either. The fact that he's able to string together these kinds of records and look unstoppable while doing so is something I just have not seen in all my time watching SC2.
Losing to Bunny and scraping past Impact in RO16. DOMINANT.
On April 16 2019 13:38 Vindicare605 wrote: Knock it off with this greatest "the GSL" has ever seen stuff.
The GSL is the top of the Starcraft 2 pyramid and has been since always. Maru is the greatest that Starcraft TWO has ever seen.
Not Mvp, not Innovation, not even Life has ever accomplished what he has, and he still looks as unbeatable as ever.
The conversation is over people. Maru is it. He has the numbers that Innovation does, with a peak that outshines even the King of Wings himself. No one can touch him. He has won. He is the current reigning GOAT.
I mean he sure gets beat a lot for someone being unbeatable. EDIT: Outside of GSL that is.
Maru when he's on his game looks untouchable. It's a simple matter of motivation by the look of it to me. The fact he still loses to teammates in televised matches to me just seems very meta, and more of a product of the quality of the JAGW team house than anything else.
The fact is. Even after losing a few tournaments in between his last Code S win and this one, he looked DOMINANT in this tournament. Not just a little bit either. The fact that he's able to string together these kinds of records and look unstoppable while doing so is something I just have not seen in all my time watching SC2.
Losing to Bunny and scraping past Impact in RO16. DOMINANT.
On April 16 2019 20:07 Doink wrote: Great achievement but still one of the most incosistent top players. Maybe he's able to deliver in weekend tournaments some time in the future.
that's the thing... do we have to evaluate the best players in terms of their prep or their results.. or their achievements in weekend vs prep tournies..at the end of the day is he a bonjwa? if you have to ask, the answer is no.
On April 16 2019 16:31 Shuffleblade wrote: GSL code S is the pinnacle of starcraft 2 though. That's how its always been, sure Blizzcon exists but we have always regarded the GSL champions as the greatest players, not the dreamhack winner or the blizzcon winner. Maru is utterly dominating the hardest tournament in the world in four consecutive seasons, greatest gsl player = greatest player.
I could get behind that if he lost the weekend tournaments very close. But he outright failed in those tournaments.
That would make a very disappointing greatest player. He's just too incosistent or has to rely on a very long preperation time which he has in GSL.
On April 16 2019 16:31 Shuffleblade wrote: GSL code S is the pinnacle of starcraft 2 though. That's how its always been, sure Blizzcon exists but we have always regarded the GSL champions as the greatest players, not the dreamhack winner or the blizzcon winner. Maru is utterly dominating the hardest tournament in the world in four consecutive seasons, greatest gsl player = greatest player.
I could get behind that if he lost the weekend tournaments very close. But he outright failed in those tournaments.
That would make a very disappointing greatest player. He's just too incosistent or has to rely on a very long preperation time which he has in GSL.
honestly, who cares about weekend tournies if you win gsl? no one fucking cares. gsl is the end all be all that's that.
this is a hill i WILL die on. gsl where your opponnents have weeks to prepare for you vs.. i'm not even going to continue because everyone reading this knows the difference between a gsl and a weekend tourny.
but if you were serral would you go to korea?
yuou've already established you're the the best zerg in the world. why disrupt your studies for nerds like me ?
On April 16 2019 16:31 Shuffleblade wrote: GSL code S is the pinnacle of starcraft 2 though. That's how its always been, sure Blizzcon exists but we have always regarded the GSL champions as the greatest players, not the dreamhack winner or the blizzcon winner. Maru is utterly dominating the hardest tournament in the world in four consecutive seasons, greatest gsl player = greatest player.
I could get behind that if he lost the weekend tournaments very close. But he outright failed in those tournaments.
That would make a very disappointing greatest player. He's just too incosistent or has to rely on a very long preperation time which he has in GSL.
honestly, who cares about weekend tournies if you win gsl? no one fucking cares. gsl is the end all be all that's that.
I don't know what's "right" if GSL is actually what should be considered the best of the best but it has been like that through allmost all of SC2s lifespan.
Looking back to when Taeja won premier tournaments overseas back to back, everyone thought he was great but everyone also didn't think he was on the same level as the recent GSL champions. GSL was considered the pinnacle, if you dominated several weekenders it wasn't even comparable to winning GSL once back then.
Now we have the opposite going on, one player is dominating GSL and everyone agrees he is great, but is he as great as the katowice or WESG champions?
I don't know if it is double standard or if the view on korean sc2 and GSL has just simply changed but let me tell you that if one player won GSL four consecutive seasons between 2013-2016 he would be considered the greatest ever and probably get the B label as well.
On April 16 2019 16:31 Shuffleblade wrote: GSL code S is the pinnacle of starcraft 2 though. That's how its always been, sure Blizzcon exists but we have always regarded the GSL champions as the greatest players, not the dreamhack winner or the blizzcon winner. Maru is utterly dominating the hardest tournament in the world in four consecutive seasons, greatest gsl player = greatest player.
I could get behind that if he lost the weekend tournaments very close. But he outright failed in those tournaments.
That would make a very disappointing greatest player. He's just too incosistent or has to rely on a very long preperation time which he has in GSL.
honestly, who cares about weekend tournies if you win gsl? no one fucking cares. gsl is the end all be all that's that.
I don't know what's "right" if GSL is actually what should be considered the best of the best but it has been like that through allmost all of SC2s lifespan.
Looking back to when Taeja won premier tournaments overseas back to back, everyone thought he was great but everyone also didn't think he was on the same level as the recent GSL champions. GSL was considered the pinnacle, if you dominated several weekenders it wasn't even comparable to winning GSL once back then.
Now we have the opposite going on, one player is dominating GSL and everyone agrees he is great, but is he as great as the katowice or WESG champions?
I don't know if it is double standard or if the view on korean sc2 and GSL has just simply changed but let me tell you that if one player won GSL four consecutive seasons between 2013-2016 he would be considered the greatest ever and probably get the B label as well.
we also don't know if he is holding back builds so he can win money in the tournaments he really cares about. i can't get inside the mind of a 4-consecutive champion.. can you? i don't even play this trash game anymore but i give him credit for being the best at it. wesg was a shit show. we all know that.
ask maru if he gives 2 shits what the chinese think of him edit: i literally watched this dood grow up. i've been here since the beginning of sc2. i saw him fight with the likings of bitbybit and .....virus? the chinese has a permanent blemish on it and that blemish is macsed I don't care what the fuck anyone says and no tournament cares, either
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The champion first pick thing has been around forever though.
No champion from 2013 until Maru even managed to make ro4 the season after they won.
Uhm, Soulkey did make Ro4 the next Code S after his championship.
On April 16 2019 20:23 Shuffleblade wrote: I don't know if it is double standard or if the view on korean sc2 and GSL has just simply changed but let me tell you that if one player won GSL four consecutive seasons between 2013-2016 he would be considered the greatest ever and probably get the B label as well.
THIS right there. I think nobody could or would argue that.
But things change.
Mid 2018 a wild Serral appears and wins every tournament he enters. The "GSL is pinnacle" theory suddenly gets questioned and rightfully so.
We'll see what 2019 will bring us. Maru is off to a good start
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The champion first pick thing has been around forever though.
No champion from 2013 until Maru even managed to make ro4 the season after they won.
Uhm, Soulkey did make Ro4 the next Code S after his championship.
I forgot season 2 of that year doesn't count as Code S. I'm not sure how it worked given that get made in was season 3 and he won in season 1. Did he have the champion swap benefit?
Even if he did, that's one case in five years of champions. The fact Dear, Zest, Classic, INno, Life, Rain, ByuN, Stats, and Gumiho all failed to make even a ro4 the season after their championships proves the benefit isn't that great.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The champion first pick thing has been around forever though.
No champion from 2013 until Maru even managed to make ro4 the season after they won.
Uhm, Soulkey did make Ro4 the next Code S after his championship.
I forgot season 2 of that year doesn't count as Code S. I'm not sure how it worked given that get made in was season 3 and he won in season 1. Did he have the champion swap benefit?
Even if he did, that's one case in five years of champions. The fact Dear, Zest, Classic, INno, Life, Rain, ByuN, Stats, and Gumiho all failed to make even a ro4 the season after their championships proves the benefit isn't that great.
We all remember Innovation making "the easiest group of all times"(until Maru beat him with even moar easy groups ) and lost horribly not making it into RO8? I don't know, Kev
i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
Maru has also played the most Code S matches in history with 286, and is tied for the second most tournament appearances at eighteen (only GuMiho has more appearances with nineteen).
On April 16 2019 21:59 Drake wrote: i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
He wins his 4th title with no proxy while defending proxies. Labeled as relying on prox
Love this
(at the same time I would label Maru being overly aggressive)
On April 16 2019 21:59 Drake wrote: i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
He wins his 4th title with no proxy while defending proxies. Labeled as relying on prox
Love this
(at the same time I would label Maru being overly aggressive)
Honestly, I'm not sure he's even that these days. He definitely used to be, but it feels now like he really knows when to pull back and be more conservative.
On April 16 2019 21:59 Drake wrote: i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
He wins his 4th title with no proxy while defending proxies. Labeled as relying on prox
Love this
(at the same time I would label Maru being overly aggressive)
Honestly, I'm not sure he's even that these days. He definitely used to be, but it feels now like he really knows when to pull back and be more conservative.
Agreed, remember when he used to push 2 base every game and if the opponent didn't die he just floated his main when the minerals was out. This finals he goes for a poweful mid game push, keeps uppgrading and takes a third behind it, Maru who are you? xD
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
One slight counterpoint is that the current system of group swapping and so on makes the first seed's task to get the Ro8 of the next Code S pretty easy. However even with that advantage Maru is still the best Code S player ever by a decently wide margin.
The champion first pick thing has been around forever though.
No champion from 2013 until Maru even managed to make ro4 the season after they won.
Uhm, Soulkey did make Ro4 the next Code S after his championship.
I forgot season 2 of that year doesn't count as Code S. I'm not sure how it worked given that get made in was season 3 and he won in season 1. Did he have the champion swap benefit?
Even if he did, that's one case in five years of champions. The fact Dear, Zest, Classic, INno, Life, Rain, ByuN, Stats, and Gumiho all failed to make even a ro4 the season after their championships proves the benefit isn't that great.
We all remember Innovation making "the easiest group of all times"(until Maru beat him with even moar easy groups ) and lost horribly not making it into RO8? I don't know, Kev
Remember when Zest picked Ryung then swapped Taeja into his group?
Then lost 1-2 to both of them and went out in last place.
On April 16 2019 21:59 Drake wrote: i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
He wins his 4th title with no proxy while defending proxies. Labeled as relying on prox
Love this
(at the same time I would label Maru being overly aggressive)
Honestly, I'm not sure he's even that these days. He definitely used to be, but it feels now like he really knows when to pull back and be more conservative.
Check his games against MeomaikA, especially the first one, he lost because he went out doing aggressive Maru things
On April 16 2019 21:59 Drake wrote: i dont think he will go in "4th race" as he is kinda relying on prox and seems to fail in any non code s tournament, so all the last tournaments we saw him in he was so bad compared to what we even expected him to be able to do that sure he is the best code s player of all time but its lacking the "wow" in his play to name him 4th race, so far only flash ever reached that for me
He wins his 4th title with no proxy while defending proxies. Labeled as relying on prox
Love this
(at the same time I would label Maru being overly aggressive)
Remember when he won in season 1 of 2018 and people blamed it on ravens, then he won season 2 even harder with mass raven removed.
Remember when he won season 3 and people blamed it on proxies? Now he wins this season even harder without doing any.
The fact he's able to switch up his playstyle every season and find a way to win no matter what is incredible. Even GSL legends like INno and Zest were never close to consecutive season wins. They lost for multiple seasons/years until the meta went into their favour again.
those GSL stats were awesome. <3 gumiho and losira being in all those GSLs, and MVP for that sick winrate. as i say in other threads, in my heart, MVP will always be #1 because he played with a broken body as a huge underdog, and still managed to get wins. and soo will be #2 of course lol. but of course in my head, maru is THE sc2 bonjwa/GOAT/god/legend
who cares about these stupid weekenders, he's done plenty well in them. any foreigner who got the kind of results he did would be elated. multiple top 3-4 finishes in IEM, WESG, and other tourneys
If this was reddit or some other site not as niche/dedicated to only StarCraft, I would expect the infamous "but starcraft is now dead gaem"-argument, but alas.
Also I know this is about Maru, but stuff like the featured list of stats really makes you wish Life was still playing: the Maru-Life rivalry was sick in like 2015 and it hurts to think how it would be NOW, considering Maru's ascension.
On April 16 2019 20:07 Doink wrote: Great achievement but still one of the most incosistent top players. Maybe he's able to deliver in weekend tournaments some time in the future.
that's the thing... do we have to evaluate the best players in terms of their prep or their results.. or their achievements in weekend vs prep tournies..at the end of the day is he a bonjwa? if you have to ask, the answer is no.
Blizzcon first prize is ten times the GSL first prize. Basically one weekend tournament for Serral was more than double worth in money than roughly a year and half of Maru slugging through 4 GSLs. I would bet everyone cares about that much money.
On April 17 2019 01:34 Akio wrote: If this was reddit or some other site not as niche/dedicated to only StarCraft, I would expect the infamous "but starcraft is now dead gaem"-argument, but alas.
The dead gaem meme died long ago, even on sites like reddit. It was mostly bitter LoL freaks who tried to spread it as a fact, not a meme. Nowadays SC2 has one of the most stable communities.
Winning against subpar competition and having a team house support while others don't...
And then you consider that he gets a free pass on first group and the first elimination round and conclude that he only needs to beat 3 serious opponents to win the GSL.
not really impressed. I'm too lazy to go check the ELO difference between him and his opponents and IMmvp and his competition but I'd be willing to bet Maru plays against much worse set of players.
On April 17 2019 02:16 Odoakar wrote: Winning against subpar competition and having a team house support while others don't...
And then you consider that he gets a free pass on first group and the first elimination round and conclude that he only needs to beat 3 serious opponents to win the GSL.
not really impressed. I'm too lazy to go check the ELO difference between him and his opponents and IMmvp and his competition but I'd be willing to bet Maru plays against much worse set of players.
Just to clear ELO is 0 indication of skill at the pro level, everyone in top 50 gm is pretty much capable of being at the top. This doesn't mean that whoever has the highest elo is all of a sudden the best player.
Maru is for sure the greatest GSL player ever! Next he needs to show the same dominance outside of GSL, if he want's to be the undisputed over all best player. But I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't care. It's not like he is a push over outside of GSL.
On April 16 2019 15:21 Nithala wrote: If only Life could play again. I believe it would be all different ...
I personally see Life as the best player that ever touch SC2, but only potentially.
Life has robbed us of the best rivalry of our game, sure. But I don't think you should see Maru's achievements degraded because Life cannot compete anymore. They are simply incredible.
Using an argument like "Sure Maru is good, but if Life yadda, yadda" feels as silly to me as the trend of posts saying that all SC2 was nothing but crap when Kespa players were still competing on BW.
There is no elephant in the room. As sure as Maru is not originally a Kespa player but a e-Sports federation one, Maru is not the best-even-if-Life, he is just the best... Except in weekenders ;-)
If Maru wins more GSLs in a row, this is going to become boring. Being the best player AND having the support of the best team (basically the only real team in Korea) AND having the advantage of selecting his initial opponents makes this quite probable.
On April 17 2019 03:01 Noa Greenini wrote: Maru is for sure the greatest GSL player ever! Next he needs to show the same dominance outside of GSL, if he want's to be the undisputed over all best player. But I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't care. It's not like he is a push over outside of GSL.
You do know WESG is outside GSL? Other than Katowice, Koreans aren't allowed to join B-leagues like WCS.
I’m pretty boring in that I somewhat accept that it’s basically impossible to compare players across SC2’s lifespan, in many ways with the Kespa switch plus the different rough eras and shifts in the tournament scene that have occurred elsewhere over SC2
Plus that little bit of luck that everyone but the undisputed GOATs in a sport have that separates the best of all time from the great of their era from the good. Which yes, even Maru has some of. His skill is insane (obviously), he’s played SC2 injury free since it came out and been healthy, started young enough to avoid military service being a factor, has been on a great team like JAGW for ages.
Other stuff just sucks for the scene and whatnot. Life, obviously. Serral not being in the GSL I don’t think invalidates Maru’s chops but as a neutral I just find it disappointing as hell that the foreigner who would finally be a legit contender there isn’t there.
Likewise more TvT would be nice, more for diversity’s sake than anything else, would give Maru more GOAT fuel too.
Most GOATs, in fact actually all of them I don’t think have ever been their peak god tier across all three at the same time. I think it’s usually 2/3 at best, while being ahead of the curve enough to merely be ‘good enough’, or having some era luck. It’d be cool for me as a viewer to see more elite TvT anyway, if Maru was dismantling the current top Terrans like he does to Protoss especially that would be crazy to see.
Plus other things we value too. It’s a strategy game after all. Early innovators to me are sometimes undervalued, through the mists of time their execution looks terrible compared to now, but they paved the way for those to come after.
Arguable GOAT, 100% for me, absolutely indisputable GOAT, probably not.
If Maru wins his 5th GSL in a row, he's probably the GOAT. If he wins a Blizzcon than its hard to argue he's not the GOAT. Crazy, since I never thought he could fully reach his potential all those years ago.
On April 16 2019 09:32 pvsnp wrote: Unless he faces another Terran in the playoffs, I doubt Maru will lose a GSL, well, ever. So long as the other Terrans keep dying before they can face Maru......
Anybody can get eliminated on the r16 playoffs. Even Maru
On April 16 2019 09:32 pvsnp wrote: Unless he faces another Terran in the playoffs, I doubt Maru will lose a GSL, well, ever. So long as the other Terrans keep dying before they can face Maru......
Anybody can get eliminated on the r16 playoffs. Even Maru
Based on the great Korean tradition of 2019 he will. soO won IEM. Eliminated in the next RO16. Innovation won WESG. Eliminated in the next RO16. Maru won Code S. Will he be eliminated in the next RO16?
On April 16 2019 09:32 pvsnp wrote: Unless he faces another Terran in the playoffs, I doubt Maru will lose a GSL, well, ever. So long as the other Terrans keep dying before they can face Maru......
Anybody can get eliminated on the r16 playoffs. Even Maru
Based on the great Korean tradition of 2019 he will. soO won IEM. Eliminated in the next RO16. Innovation won WESG. Eliminated in the next RO16. Maru won Code S. Will he be eliminated in the next RO16?
Maru is absolutely the best preparation player of all time. But being able to play a random opponent in quick succession is important too. The "Most important tournament" for a professional is where the prize money is. These last few years those are not GSL. GSL used to have the biggest prize pools but not any longer, so it's not the be all end all anymore.
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
On April 19 2019 04:28 Odoakar wrote: GOAT can't win a Bo5 if he doesn't have 1 week prep time.
LOL
GSL is the most prestigious, but only artificially so. At the end of the day the winner of the GSL plays 7 matches to be champion.
That said, its just a different skill set. Maru is clearly very good at preparing for his opponents, ($0$ aside.)
I think Innovation / Taeja / Life are the players that can do both the GSL stuff and Weekend tournies the best.
TaeJa was famously sucky at GSL style tournament, never reach a final in any of them, even the relatively easy WCS NA.
And honestly Life was not amazing in GSL either, he won two but they were separated by quite a long time and only had one top 4 finish. For how dominant a player he was at times you would expect him to have done better
On April 17 2019 13:02 kickina wrote: Going by average player strength, and amount of rounds required to win, GSL Code S is objectively the hardest tournament to win in SC2.
So if GSL is "objectively" the hardest tournament to win why does Maru not even reach the finals in everything else? Should be easy for him if GSL is so much harder.
On April 17 2019 13:02 kickina wrote: Going by average player strength, and amount of rounds required to win, GSL Code S is objectively the hardest tournament to win in SC2.
So if GSL is "objectively" the hardest tournament to win why does Maru not even reach the finals in everything else? Should be easy for him if GSL is so much harder.
??? OSL, SSL, WESG... an IEM where he lost to life if i recall correctly. I'm totally fine with not considering him as GOAT. But sometimes i'm wondering what you guys are talking about...
gsl is not only the hardest tournament but it is also formatted very differently from every other premier tournament. the format generally favors his style and preparation. i don't think there is a real goat of starcraft 2 we haven't had the stability in any champion over a looong period of time. sure, there are lots of streaks and times where one player has dominated insanely for a short amount of time, but the meta shifts so quickly it seems like it is difficult for any one player to shine in various metas.
imo, an emergent goat would most likely be a zerg just based on how reactive play is favored and this has been the case for a long time
edit: i think the closest exception to this rule would be MVP
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Innovation says hi.
Even though I'm sure everyone cares about winning, I feel as if most pros don't put nearly as much effort into it as they used to. Maybe that's false. Major said he practiced 30-40 games a day or something. But I feel like the passion or drive isn't really there like it used to be... I can barely blame Maru for losing in Ro32.
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well.
Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup.
Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool.
They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware.
Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully.
Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting.
I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well.
Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup.
Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool.
They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware.
Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully.
Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting.
I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell.
I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected)
GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament.
So, again, it's not just about the format.
Edit> If some top player ignores Code S then it's theirs fault, not Code S'. Because Code S is open to everyone, not like the rest. If you have master account you can go into qualifications. Katowice are in the shadow zone as the top players are mostly from Korea and Korea - Poland travel cost for local qualis are so huge. (that's IMO) Edit2> Also because of the European qualification which is bad for the top players from Korea which "lowers" the quality of the player pool. again, that's IMO.
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well.
Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup.
Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool.
They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware.
Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully.
Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting.
I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell.
I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected)
GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament.
So, again, it's not just about the format.
How is it when it runs for so long and necessitates a stay in Korea to facilitate that, and has offline qualifiers to boot? Yes but the qualifications are hard, they also don’t guarantee the best Ro32 field you can have every time. I don’t think they use a good format at all for it tbh. Also the GSL both seeds more players, but also does group picks on that basis vs say IEM Katowice.
GSL isn’t really any more stacked than Katowice, certainly not really when it’s at Ro32 level, and in terms of legitimate title contenders each season it shares the same players with those other tournaments, bar Serral I suppose. A tournament like WESG absolutely lacks depth and sufficient Korean presence for sure though.
Who’s assuming JAGW = the old Kespa regime? Presumably they do something useful there and there’s enough hints in terms of what comes out that they do smart in-house practice.
Maru can debut a style of mech at Super Tournament that seemed to have a lot of work put into it and was pretty damn refined, that was also pretty new and also distinct from Gumiho’s mech vP, which was less hidden and new.
Or Maru’s prep vP where he crushes everyone, vs $o$ dismantling him at Blizzcon in his usual madcap fashion.
Maru sometimes looking shaky in groups vs looking insane in the latter stages, there’s enough there reading between the lines to see the benefits of their setup in this format. Maru looks stronger the later GSL goes and the more of his teammates have fallen by the wayside in GSL.
But no we don’t know, I presume that sOs, who’s One of the smarter players out there strategically but whose execution sometimes isn’t the best, living in a house with Maru who is Mr Top Execution in the game probably confers some kind of advantage when it comes to prep tournaments, never mind the rest of the JAGW cast who are all bloody good.
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
IEM Katowice is actually ahead of GSL in terms of the pure "best players" criterion. Theoretically every player can be a Korean via qualifiers because server qualifiers aren't restricted. This is why we only had Koreans qualifying through the American Qualifier. The only issue could be seen in the EU qualifier being unfavorable to Koreans due to lag, but then again the top3 EU players should be considered CodeS material. This way IEM features all the best Koreans and the few best Foreigners of a time while GSL normally lacks the best foreigners who can outmatch some CodeS-Koreans. The fact that there were foreigners qualifying via offline qualifiers over Koreans solidifies my point.
it's not like maru does anything crazy in gsl while having a long time to prepare. he plays pretty straight up and probably get an edge here and there based on his knowledge of his opponents' tendencies. that, i think, makes him even better. his preparation is not to go insane with builds that directly counter his opponents' strategies but rather soft counter their tendencies. i still don't think there is a clear goat though
After four seasons and four titles it appears as if the only person capable of standing in Maru’s way is himself. The question has shifted from “will Maru win again?” to “will Maru ever lose?”
Also, when people compare weekend tournaments to GSL, this is like comparing blitz chess to standard chess. It's not like blitz chess is less meaningful, but you end up with poorer (or perhaps... different) strategy than with standard chess. So most people consider standard chess to be the most prestigious. Weekend tournies may not be seen at the same level as GSL, where people have a week to prepare, but that shouldn't completely discredit them.
I hear this comment a lot, and I think the long-held view that prep format SC reigns supreme really might need updating.
The view is held because in Broodwar and early SC2, the game was in a very different state to where it is now. Namely almost all pro gamers were in team houses that were sponsored by big brands, and paid salaries to win tournaments (especially team tournaments).
Proleague SC2 is a lot more appropriate for your example of blitz vs standard chess. That game no longer exists. There's one teamhouse left who are incentivised to develop and hone strategies in a silo away with each other away from streams or ladder.
Anyone playing in a prep tournament with 5 other people helping design their strategies in secret is going to generally (not always) but generally be much better suited to prep format. For everyone outside of JAGW their practice conditions are no longer suited to prep format.
So why do we still need to consider prep format the be-all and end-all? Until we get over this hump there's just going to be the same arguments on the forum that GSL is the only thing that matters, people like Serral don't count cause Korea.
It's not about the format per se, but about the fact that GSL has the best players except few foreigners while everything else has less top players. Blizzcon(because only 8 can be Koreans and because the actual form is overshadowed by the former form) and Katowice(because not enough Koreans can go through qualifier) included. GSL has the toughest competition of them all. Deal with it.
Also we can see how good the preparation is for JAGW when they have 1 out of what, 5 or 6 players? Team house powah
GSL has previous form overshadowing current form too though, a bad day at the qualifiers and some of the best players don’t get in, or other players slump over the run of the tournament that are in. There’s usually one or two of the real top-tier players who don’t qualify for the GSL every season as well.
Why put preparation on such a pedestal if people are dismissive that JAGW might gain any edge at all by having a team house where they can practice stuff in-house? Maybe not a huge edge but they’ve got to get some value out of that setup.
Part of a competitive strategy game should be having to adapt and play reactively in a condensed tournament as well as having a week+ to prepare for a single matchup with a set map pool.
They’re both important, and it’s not as extreme as my analogy but Formula 1 is different from other racing series and has the most prestige, but also it’s the one where the playing field is the least even, and being in the best overall team makes a huge difference vs other series where they’re playing on a fully even field in terms of car hardware.
Prep formats are collaborative efforts executed by one individual, weekenders are more purely individual, although obviously not fully.
Never mind how prep has a racial element to it as well, Terran and Protoss can proxy and develop really map-specific technical aggressive builds in a way that Zergs simply cannot do as a race, and Legacy has given more options, but also less time in the early game via the earlier worker count to actually sniff some of them out via scouting/reacting.
I don’t think it’s at all coincidental that the reactive race has won plenty of big tournaments in Legacy but hasn’t been winning GSLs
Link me to an article where they describe how JAGW team house lately operates. Because AFAIK they can be operating as the foreigner house with a different provider and we wouldn't be able to tell.
I love how everyone is assuming they still operate in the old KeSPA regime while we cannot tell that while they disregard, at the same time, team strategy in tournaments. (and to be worse, these two are not connected)
GSL is the most open tournament on the planet with the highest skill available. Yes, not everyone is part of RO32 as they cannot qualify because of the hard qualifications. But the qualis are hard beacuse it is the hardest tournament.
So, again, it's not just about the format.
Edit> If some top player ignores Code S then it's theirs fault, not Code S'. Because Code S is open to everyone, not like the rest. If you have master account you can go into qualifications. Katowice are in the shadow zone as the top players are mostly from Korea and Korea - Poland travel cost for local qualis are so huge. (that's IMO) Edit2> Also because of the European qualification which is bad for the top players from Korea which "lowers" the quality of the player pool. again, that's IMO.
I like how you point out that everyone can qualify for Code S and how easy it is to attend qualifiers and 1 sentence later you say how unfair the qualification for Katowice is because Korean have to travel there....
Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote: Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
Innovation who has only made consecutive RO8's once against the guy who won 4 in a row? Innovation, the king of throwing won games and getting reverse swept when it seems impossible?
On June 02 2019 00:24 swarminfestor wrote: Maru is no longer the Greatest GSL player if Innovation won for his fourth title. Winning back and forth, and looked formidably inconsistent is more awesome that winning consecutively in the long span of months.
Sure, he just made something no one else on this planet ever done but yeah. Trolling or waT?
On April 16 2019 08:52 Waxangel wrote: Wow what a perfect opportunity to talk about why Mvp's GSL WC title was lesser than a "full" Code S title, and how the 75% re-seeding system of 2011 made the Code S results of 2011 less impressive! I'm not disputing the effectiveness of such a cynically noncompetitive policy—giving Mvp and Nestea an easier road to superstar/legend status gave them much value as tentpole attractions for not only the GSL, but for SC2 esports as a whole. Still, I think the rose-colored glasses we put on when we talk about the older legends is quite excessive—I believe Maru was clearly the best GSL player even after he won "only" 3x back to back.
On the other hand, there's a fair (if inevitably contentious) argument to be made about the weakened competition in the most recent GSL's, where Code A has been effectively scrapped due to lack of player base. Perhaps the "middle year" Code S tournaments were the most competitive, where there was no 75%-seeding for incumbent Code S players, but still a deep enough player base to make getting through Code B-A-S32 a relevant challenge (wait, did this become an argument supporting Miz's favorite player soO????)
Totally agree, I remember way back then people started to consider MVP's record as being way better than Nestea due to the 3 Code S + GSL WC.
Like, IIRC, the WC was a 16 person Invitational where half the players were foreigners (who at the time were very weak compared to Code S players). Some Koreans were invited due to popularity despite already having fallen off, like Tester who was considered a top player during the Beta but wasn't able to keep that up. Winning the WC was much much easier than winning a Code S tournament involving 32 Code S Koreans.
hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
On June 02 2019 18:50 CicadaSC wrote: hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
Could not disagree more, especially since some of the ex-kespa players came out and said that they got better after they were no longer doing 12-hours/day gaming.
On June 02 2019 18:50 CicadaSC wrote: hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
Maybe 10 years from now when all the money and prestige in winning sc2 is gone, then yes. But for the time being, all the big players are staying in the scene. And it's not like they have become dads and working on other things and not practicing. If a scene is ever to become irrelevant, then it will do so gradually. Just bc kespa is gone doesn't make the sc2 pro scene irrelevant right away (and not necessarily).
On June 02 2019 18:50 CicadaSC wrote: hate posts like these. The accomplishments are all weighted the same. SC2 in korea is at the lowest point it's ever been in terms of competitiveness. A victory when there are 500 guys practicing 12 hours a day under strict kespa regimen vs a victory now is very different...
Maybe 10 years from now when all the money and prestige in winning sc2 is gone, then yes. But for the time being, all the big players are staying in the scene. And it's not like they have become dads and working on other things and not practicing. If a scene is ever to become irrelevant, then it will do so gradually. Just bc kespa is gone doesn't make the sc2 pro scene irrelevant right away (and not necessarily).
It’ll definitely fall off sharply if there isn’t a new generation coming through, but for the time being the level is still really really high looking at the actual games themselves.
There are benefits to a player to not have to practice those amounts, some players might benefit from the stricter regime and vice versa.
I think Artosis mentioned one silver lining of the post Kespa BW era was an openness of information spilling into the scene and for fans to consume. Players are more free to fraternise with players outside their team, streams etc.
I still think it’s overall negative for the scene, but for immediate level of play it doesn’t seem to have really damaged things that much that we don’t have the Kespa stuff:
The level of play was at it's worst during late kespa imo. 2016 was just bad as far as individual leagues go except a few players who seemed to be practicing hard (ByuN, Dark etc).
Maru doesn't have the international success that MVP and Life both have. Also MVP titles count for a lot more since sc2 scene was much more competitive back in the day.
On June 03 2019 20:21 SuperFanBoy wrote: My top three: 1. MVP 2. Life 3. Maru
Maru doesn't have the international success that MVP and Life both have. Also MVP titles count for a lot more since sc2 scene was much more competitive back in the day.
On June 03 2019 20:21 SuperFanBoy wrote: My top three: 1. MVP 2. Life 3. Maru
Maru doesn't have the international success that MVP and Life both have. Also MVP titles count for a lot more since sc2 scene was much more competitive back in the day.
Even though Life's entire career was/is tainted because of match-fixing?
His match fixing never involved his opponents losing to him, it only involved in him throwing (losing) a few matches. All his tournament wins were legit.
EPT
2010 Sony Ericsson StarCraft II Open Season 3
