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On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
That's part of it. But remember, the reason why they got rid of Code A was because there wasn't enough interest to begin with. They didn't get rid of Code A because they wanted to save money or something. If there was enough interest, they would have a Code A. But for the most recent GSL, Look at some of the routes of qualification. Some, yes, have to face the top, but some people have really easy routes.
I chose a random GSL in a popular year. GSL 2012 Season 3. The number of players in the preliminaries dwarfs any number of qualifiers now (including WCS) but especially Korea. You had players like Losira, TLO, Super, Tails, and more competing in the preliminaries just to get into Code A. You had to be a pretty good player just to get into Code A. When there's interest in a scene, it doesn't really matter who you have to go up against. People compete just for the opportunity.
I agree that competing against top or near top pros (SortOf is a near top but not top pro) is definitely a factor that reduces interest, but I heavily disagree that it's the main one. Again, just look at a popular GSL preliminary in 2012/2011. You had tons of players going up against players on the caliber of the most recent GSL (in part because there's only a select few really good ones nowadays).
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On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene.
When you compare offline qualifiers to online qualifiers the online qualifier will always have much more participants.
Let's see how those lists would look when you make GSL qualifiers online and WCS NA qualifiers offline 
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On November 09 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? That's part of it. But remember, the reason why they got rid of Code A was because there wasn't enough interest to begin with. They didn't get rid of Code A because they wanted to save money or something. If there was enough interest, they would have a Code A. But for the most recent GSL, Look at some of the routes of qualification. Some, yes, have to face the top, but some people have really easy routes. I chose a random GSL in a popular year. GSL 2012 Season 3. The number of players in the preliminaries dwarfs any number of qualifiers now (including WCS) but especially Korea. You had players like Losira, TLO, Super, Tails, and more competing in the preliminaries just to get into Code A. You had to be a pretty good player just to get into Code A. When there's interest in a scene, it doesn't really matter who you have to go up against. People compete just for the opportunity. I agree that competing against top or near top pros (SortOf is a near top but not top pro) is definitely a factor that reduces interest, but I heavily disagree that it's the main one. Again, just look at a popular GSL preliminary in 2012/2011. You had tons of players going up against players on the caliber of the most recent GSL (in part because there's only a select few really good ones nowadays).
Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene?
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United States33201 Posts
On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
I don't think the situation is significantly different in the non-Korean world. Getting into the money of WCS Challenger is worth $400—that's not going to affect anyone's decision to go pro or not (unless maybe you live in Ukraine or something). The line where you start to make a "living" is oppressively high in both regions, and I don't there's a qualitative difference between Korea and Circuit in that regard.
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I don't think elite players are born chasing the opportunity to make money. Usually the best players of a game are just the players that like it a lot, play it a lot and are talented at it. Money isn't a factor unless we're talking sums that are 100 times greater than what SC2 is paying right now. I've never heard of any top video game player getting into gaming just because he/she saw there was a shitload of money to make...
So yeah, again, it comes down to: "do enough people like playing this game?". And in Korea it seems that the answer is no.
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On November 09 2018 09:37 sunnyshine wrote:Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene?
But the teams in part existed because of that interest. Look at SC2 in general. What big teams are there? Or is it mostly smaller teams now? Back then, you had TL, EG, Millennium, Complexity, fnatic, Dignitas, and mousesports (to name a few). You had all these big teams that existed across different esports. But now? You have TL, Psistorm, Root, and some other ones. The other big organizations all left because they couldn't make money, because the scene itself wasn't profitable enough and/or the players retired. WCS Global is much larger than Korea, but WCS still has sponsor issues, and it's because the scene isn't that large compared to other esports.
The teams come from interest in the esport; if there is no interest, there are no teams. Look at BW. Korean SC existed almost entirely inside of Korea, but they had superstars and sponsors. Why? Because they had interest in the game and the infrastructure to support that interest.
Now, it is true that once the teams are formed, it's easier to support players, but teams only form because there are players.
EDIT:
On November 09 2018 09:17 Charoisaur wrote:When you compare offline qualifiers to online qualifiers the online qualifier will always have much more participants. Let's see how those lists would look when you make GSL qualifiers online and WCS NA qualifiers offline Looking strictly at US/CDN players (excluding Noregret, because he's not really local), I count 29 players in the open brackets of WCS Montreal 2018.
Of course the main tournament is likely to have a higher attendance than the qualifier, but it's closest thing we have. Besides, we're talking about the geographical area of a country that is 2.23% the size of Canada.
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On November 09 2018 10:04 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? I don't think the situation is significantly different in the non-Korean world. Getting into the money of WCS Challenger is worth $400—that's not going to affect anyone's decision to go pro or not (unless maybe you live in Ukraine or something). The line where you start to make a "living" is oppressively high in both regions, and I don't there's a qualitative difference between Korea and Circuit in that regard.
Fair enough that $400 isn't much, but its also something tangible to show for their efforts. It helps players justify having very little income whilst continuing to play the game. Even something like broadcasting qualifiers like how WCS does with challenger motivates players because them see themselves on show for thousands of people. If you want to encourage new pros you don't want a system that scares off any prospective talent, you want to encourage them to keep aiming for the top.
On November 09 2018 10:13 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2018 09:37 sunnyshine wrote:Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene? But the teams in part existed because of that interest. Look at SC2 in general. What big teams are there? Or is it mostly smaller teams now? Back then, you had TL, EG, Millennium, Complexity, fnatic, Dignitas, and mousesports (to name a few). You had all these big teams that existed across different esports. But now? You have TL, Psistorm, Root, and some other ones. The other big organizations all left because they couldn't make money, because the scene itself wasn't profitable enough and/or the players retired. WCS Global is much larger than Korea, but WCS still has sponsor issues, and it's because the scene isn't that large compared to other esports. The teams come from interest in the esport; if there is no interest, there are no teams. Look at BW. Korean SC existed almost entirely inside of Korea, but they had superstars and sponsors. Why? Because they had interest in the game and the infrastructure to support that interest. Now, it is true that once the teams are formed, it's easier to support players, but teams only form because there are players.
BW rose up in a different time, it is more the exception than the rule. These days you need developer support to nurture a competitive esports scene. When we see fortnite dumping $100 million into prize pools, if your game doesn't at least give some incentives, then there's no reason to aim to play it professionally. Blizzard have done it with the WCS circuit with challenger, they should also be doing it for KR with something like Code A.
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I'm serious right now. Bring back 6 workers. Solved. I don't know about game speed, but bring back 6 workers.
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On November 09 2018 14:04 sunnyshine wrote:BW rose up in a different time, it is more the exception than the rule. These days you need developer support to nurture a competitive esports scene. When we see fortnite dumping $100 million into prize pools, if your game doesn't at least give some incentives, then there's no reason to aim to play it professionally. Blizzard have done it with the WCS circuit with challenger, they should also be doing it for KR with something like Code A.
I think we're going in a bit of a circular argument. With the WCS challenger, we already had an existing and interested pool of players that would try to go semi-pro. With Code A, remember that they actually stopped Code A because they didn't have enough players.
On June 19 2018 04:48 afreecaTV.Char wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 03:15 Silvana wrote:
Are there enough Korean players to fill Code A? This is the main reason that made Mr. Chae suggest removing Code A back then. At the time I was shocked at the idea of losing Code A, but I understood his reasoning for it later. If there were enough players, Code A would exist. Besides, fortnite dumped millions of dollars into its prize pool after its player base had skyrocketed, not before.
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with region lock, koreans cant go overseas to take foreigner lunch money. when there wasn't, the scene was thriving. blizzard killed korean scene with region lock. overnight kespa closed up shop, all the team houses died except jin air, and everyone retired. remove the evil region lock, it is no longer needed
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I think it might be too late to 'save' Korean scene, because even Japan have better demographics than Korean SC2 scene  .
33% of top 20 Korean players (based on WCS points) will have to retire after the next season because they are 26 years old and they have to start military service before turning 28. Another 33% of top 20 will have retire within 2-3 years.
So soon 2/3 of Koreans will retire and there is no one to replace them. There is literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Mainly because young Koreans prefer other e-sports like Overwatch, LOL, DOTA2, which offer better pay and aren't region locked.
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On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea.
Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural
but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone.
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On November 10 2018 02:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone.
Well, we might have different definitions of promising young player. I meant someone as good as Raynor or at least Clem. There might be some smaller caliber talents in Korea, but I wouldn't bet my money on them being top players in the future.
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SC as a whole worked because of ProLeague; you had the team houses to foster talent and skill, house players; you had the draft system for rookies where players like Flash ( if I recall, I am sure Letmelose can verify) became practice partners and edged their way into the team. ProLeague was making the system of acquiring talent sustainable (though sadly many didn't make it into teams).
What we have now are veterans of KESPA making the most of what they've got. I think a Code A for the best losers of the Code S qualifiers and others, or something similar might have an effect but I don't think it will happen.
A Korean rookie house might also work but it requires investment, and honestly I don't think it would be realistic for rookies to favour SC2 over education in its current state in Korea.
But an OWL-esque teamleague?! Fuck yeah! (Will never happen).
tl;dr the inherent infrastructure & supply and demand for new talent just isn't there any more.
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On November 10 2018 03:06 DSK wrote:
SC as a whole worked because of ProLeague; you had the team houses to foster talent and skill, house players; you had the draft system for rookies where players like Flash ( if I recall, I am sure Letmelose can verify) became practice partners and edged their way into the team. ProLeague was making the system of acquiring talent sustainable (though sadly many didn't make it into teams).
What we have now are veterans of KESPA making the most of what they've got. I think a Code A for the best losers of the Code S qualifiers and others, or something similar might have an effect but I don't think it will happen.
A Korean rookie house might also work but it requires investment, and honestly I don't think it would be realistic for rookies to favour SC2 over education in its current state in Korea.
But an OWL-esque teamleague?! Fuck yeah! (Will never happen).
tl;dr the inherent infrastructure & supply and demand for new talent just isn't there any more.
Between the interactions of kespa and blilzzard and the scandal of whom that shall not be named, wasn't pro league and kespa forced into sc2?
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Well, this thread is meant for thinking about possible ways to make the situation in Korea better. I mean, it's really interesting to discuss how this situation came about but this won't help.
Of course we'll never get back to the days of glory, of course SC2 will never be the most famous esport in South Korea. But it can be better, more vital and have some demographical fluctuation. South Korea may be a special place but it does not magically defy the rules of how humans work. SC2 is still a successful game with quite a playerbase in South Korea. It's not huge or dominant but it's big enough to build upon.
The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful.
On November 10 2018 02:49 aver_raiher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 02:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone. Well, we might have different definitions of promising young player. I meant someone as good as Raynor or at least Clem. There might be some smaller caliber talents in Korea, but I wouldn't bet my money on them being top players in the future.
We always had new players in South Korea as good as Reynor or Clem were 2 years ago. The problem is that they had no opportunity to break through while the WCS system gives such a talent quite some room to show his skills and to reach prestigious tournaments.
I'll say it again and again: The narrative of "there is no new talent is South Korea" is a myth. There is talent, it just needs to be given some chances.
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On November 10 2018 07:29 fronkschnonk wrote:The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful.
I think region lock worked because there was already a substantial foreign playerbase. While there is up and coming talent in Korea, there's a far smaller pool to draw from. With that in mind, I think a non-region locked challenger league of sorts would be very helpful. It helps out the people who need it the most, the Code Bs and very low Code S players, and it also creates competition that they can do well in.
Part of the problem if you create a Korea-only challenger is that I'm not sure if there will be enough response to fill a 32 person tournament + qualifiers. Additionally, people can learn from other playstyles, and as we saw in Blizzcon, in part because players were not as familiar with the European playstyle, they were stomped much more easily. In almost every WCS, we've seen Zerg players stand up to and almost beat Serral, and yet when it comes to Blizzcon or GSL vs The World, Korean Zerg players crumble against Serral.
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On November 10 2018 08:42 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 07:29 fronkschnonk wrote:The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful. I think region lock worked because there was already a substantial foreign playerbase. While there is up and coming talent in Korea, there's a far smaller pool to draw from. With that in mind, I think a non-region locked challenger league of sorts would be very helpful. It helps out the people who need it the most, the Code Bs and very low Code S players, and it also creates competition that they can do well in. Part of the problem if you create a Korea-only challenger is that I'm not sure if there will be enough response to fill a 32 person tournament + qualifiers. Additionally, people can learn from other playstyles, and as we saw in Blizzcon, in part because players were not as familiar with the European playstyle, they were stomped much more easily. In almost every WCS, we've seen Zerg players stand up to and almost beat Serral, and yet when it comes to Blizzcon or GSL vs The World, Korean Zerg players crumble against Serral.
I would be positive about a global challenger format, so I agree to some extend. It would even be possible to give some Code S spots to the best Koreans in the global challenger, so they would have an additional motivation to participate.
On the other hand I really don't think that it would be a problem to fill a Korean Code A. In my suggested format you wouldn't need additional 32 players because 12 players would advance to code S. So a Code A with 24 players would only offer 12 additional spots to the total amount of GSL players.
But I have to admit that the idea of a global challenger would have the charme of fostering Korean talents while still let foreigners qualify for GSL in a regular way.
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How to get more new blood? Well first, make the game a fun and enjoyeable game to play on all levels to increase its popularity. Because at the moment both the game and the RTS Genre is unpopular.
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You need to get young (<18 yo) people to play game. People mostly play same games as their friends. Even after getting those new players it will take 3 years to become pro level.
Increasing money paid doesn't magically bring new players. People play games because they enjoy them. People don't pick new game to earn money from playing it. At some point you might realize that you might be good enough to earn some money and start committing to the game.
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EPT
