EPTHow to get new blood into SC2 in South Korea? - Page 3
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blardoh
20 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 08 2018 02:41 Brutaxilos wrote: I don't think we need "young" players necessarily. Just "new" players. Besides a few players like Reynor, most WCS players are also over 20 years old (some of them much older). I mean to me sub-25 qualifies as "young". The new players have to come from somewhere, and typically they will come from a pool of people that have a lot of free time (aka young) to get good at the game. And at that age you're also not playing games if your friends don't play them too. So that's why I understood OP's question as "how do you make an unpopular 10-year old game popular?" which to me has no answer. Like it almost sounds like there is this assumption that a lot of "new" Korean players are out there but they don't get the chance to rise up or something. There just aren't enough players for new stars to rise up. OP's idea of what makes an eSports game is a bit backward. The game is massively popular, hence it's competitive (if the gameplay allows it of course), hence money flocks to it. You don't pump money into an unpopular game. Also it seems there is this assumption that foreigners are now competitive with Koreans somehow, and I didn't keep in touch with the scene much, but just looking at the finals brackets it seems that Serral is the exception rather than the rule. Am I missing something here? | ||
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Chris_Havoc
United States600 Posts
On November 08 2018 02:57 blardoh wrote: Why can't Korea just hire the players like LCS does and pay the players a livable salary so players don't think their life is over if they lose in the ro32. You make it sound like korean SC2 should become a charity. Sponsors and businesses are not going to invest in the korean scene without at least an expectation of a minimal financial return. No one in their right minds will invest into the korean scene knowing ahead of time they will lose money on the deal. SC2 esports is first and foremost a business. | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2633 Posts
On November 08 2018 03:28 ZenithM wrote: I mean to me sub-25 qualifies as "young". The new players have to come from somewhere, and typically they will come from a pool of people that have a lot of free time (aka young) to get good at the game. And at that age you're also not playing games if your friends don't play them too. So that's why I understood OP's question as "how do you make an unpopular 10-year old game popular?" which to me has no answer. Like it almost sounds like there is this assumption that a lot of "new" Korean players are out there but they don't get the chance to rise up or something. There just aren't enough players for new stars to rise up. I'm sure there are probably at least 100 GM non-pros on the KR server that can take games off pros. They could possibly transition to pros if given the chance? | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On November 07 2018 23:14 Brutaxilos wrote: Ah yes because the foreign scene was totally alive before the WCS region lock! /s In 2014 the foreign scene was basically ...Snute. Literally no other foreign player would win any games vs Koreans and no one really cared anymore. Blizzard pumped a bunch of money/effort into the scene and revitalized it. There's no reason why they shouldn't do it for Korean leagues now. nothing you wrote relates to anything i wrote. i didn't write anything about the foreign scene or about whether it was stronger or weaker before any WCS changes. did you reply to the wrong person? no worries if so On November 07 2018 22:53 sunnyshine wrote: bribing people to fake caring about a game, how is it different to what blizzard does with the WCS circuit? i didn't say anything about WCS circuit or my opinion of it. why are people replying to my post with unrelated stuff? | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On November 08 2018 04:15 nanaoei wrote: ladder tournaments with money prizes and tournament appearances. Problem is that'll still only go to the best Korean pros. Maybe a smaller Code A that features 32 players, is KR-only, and happens after Code S ro32 to give low-tier Koreans some more chances at prize money. Make the prize money for most placements less than a GSL ro16 so players in the ro32 are decentivized from throwing or not playing their best to try and score more prize money. Tbh though, I'm not exactly sure how to fix the lack of new blood in KR. It's persisted for the entire lifespan of SC2 just about. We can keep throwing money at the scene, but Korea just didn't like SC2, and convincing people to give something they didn't like another shot is very difficult | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary487 Posts
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On November 08 2018 04:21 brickrd wrote: nothing you wrote relates to anything i wrote. i didn't write anything about the foreign scene or about whether it was stronger or weaker before any WCS changes. did you reply to the wrong person? no worries if so i didn't say anything about WCS circuit or my opinion of it. why are people replying to my post with unrelated stuff? What Brutaxilos is saying is that Blizzard came in and "saved" the foreign scene from dying out, so they should do the same for Korea. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On November 08 2018 03:28 ZenithM wrote: Also it seems there is this assumption that foreigners are now competitive with Koreans somehow, and I didn't keep in touch with the scene much, but just looking at the finals brackets it seems that Serral is the exception rather than the rule. Am I missing something here? There's two things. First, this is not the only tournament that other foreigners have won against Koreans. Scarlett won against sOs in Pyeongchang, and Neeb won against herO in Hangzhou. There have also been other very high placings by foreigners in GSL and WESG. Second, you have to consider the competitiveness of the games being played. Back in 2014, you'd generally have blowouts against foreigners, but now, games are much closer even by people not really considered to be the top. You'd also have only the top foreigners, like Stephanon, Naniwa, or Snute being able to take games or make it close, but now you have Scarlett fighting closely against Koreans (almost beat Classic GSL vs. The World), you have Showtime, who although is a top player, has had a bit of a middling result in 2018, absolutely slaughtering Zest in GSL vs. The World. Although foreigners may not be winning everything (aside from Serral), they are making the games a lot more competitive. | ||
Waxangel
United States33571 Posts
The amount of prize money Blizzard puts into StarCraft II esports in Korea is already quite high. On a per-individual basis, it's higher than the prize money PUBG leagues in Korea paid out this year (based on my rudimentary research, but feel free to correct me). Yet, StarCraft II is stuck with the same player base while the entire Korean industry rushed to form/join pro PUBG teams. If the money Blizzard already puts into SC2 isn't already enough to attract new talent, I don't think there's an easy way to redirect that money to change that. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
2016 Season 3: TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support. Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets. But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays: domickc (since 2018) Rookie (since 2013) Gamja (since 2013) Price (since 2017) sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming) Lero (since 2017) cypher (since 2018) Dandy (since 2016, now on Root) Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming) And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes. The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17726 Posts
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote: I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A. 2016 Season 3: TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support. Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets. But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays: domickc (since 2018) Rookie (since 2013) Gamja (since 2013) Price (since 2017) sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming) Lero (since 2017) cypher (since 2018) Dandy (since 2016, now on Root) Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming) And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes. The "there is no blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress. Keep in mind that during that time there was also proleague which was a huge incentive to try to become a pro. | ||
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Veluvian
Bulgaria256 Posts
In order to justify the presence of the teams - sponsors are required. And sponsors need guarantees that the interest in SCII in Korea is still big. And it isn't. Region - locks comes next because Koreans cannot participate outside and to present the brands of their sponsors along with the teams. Korean pro's still remain outsiders despite most of the have already found foreign teams or smaller clans. A Korean model of a team is so essential for e-sports in Korea, because for a new kid it will eventually meat one of the top players in the scene who is in his new team. And the kid suddenly sees the whole path to the top and has a clear vision what to do and what a super effort must perform to reach this hyper level. Nal_ra tried to return in pro-gaming about 9 years ago and this was documented in "Oldboy" serries. Back then he was probably 27-28 years old and the whole community almost laughed upon it, despite the gigantic respect toward the Broodwar legend. Yes, that's true because it is an age that is not supposed for a pro-gamer in most of the cases and now most of the top SCII players are at this age. This is not normal. Of course Broodwar has totally different mechanics and it is harder to play in late age. In SCII many controls are automatically added. Now they will automatically add the warpgates after the upgrade is ready. It allows even to experienced and old players to focus on what they can do best. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On November 08 2018 08:52 Waxangel wrote: I see it as more of a grassroots problem of StarCraft 2 being unpopular in Korea, rather than a top-down problem of Blizzard not correctly subsidizing the influx of new progamers. Unfortunately, the former is an issue that's almost impossible to address at this point in time without some kind of massive investment in an 8 year old game which is basically at the end of its product cycle. The amount of prize money Blizzard puts into StarCraft II esports in Korea is already quite high. On a per-individual basis, it's higher than the prize money PUBG leagues in Korea paid out this year (based on my rudimentary research, but feel free to correct me). Yet, StarCraft II is stuck with the same player base while the entire Korean industry rushed to form/join pro PUBG teams. If the money Blizzard already puts into SC2 isn't already enough to attract new talent, I don't think there's an easy way to redirect that money to change that. Sadly I agree 100% with this. OP is basically asking how to make sc2 popular in Korea and it is almost impossible at this point. All the big afreeca streamers play BW and the kids play what their friends are playing, LoL or PUBG. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote: I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A. 2016 Season 3: TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support. Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets. But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays: domickc (since 2018) Rookie (since 2013) Gamja (since 2013) Price (since 2017) sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming) Lero (since 2017) cypher (since 2018) Dandy (since 2016, now on Root) Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming) And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes. The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress. No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. | ||
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sunnyshine
Australia63 Posts
On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote: No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote: There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? Yeah, pretty much this. If there were a code A we would see a similar amount of "new blood" in it's qualifiers. | ||
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