|
What?
The region-lock thread that popped up due to Serral and other foreigners being successful against Koreans raised the question how the Korean SC2-Scene could be supported in order to get new players into SC2 in South Korea. I think we should try to gather several Ideas and discuss them.
I will gather Ideas in this start-post, linking to them in the thread.
Please don't just throw some buzz words in, but think stuff through. It's ok to fantasize, but it also important to think about financing, logistics and stuff.
And please only one idea per post 
Why though?
Surely we also could say "So what? Korea still isn't in bad condition. They're just not as overwhelming great anymore." But I think teamliquid always has been a place of cherishing the greatness of Korean Starcraft which was possible because of great conditions. It's sad to see those good conditions falter because we know that there is potential for so much more. More players, more exciting games, better players, more money in the leagues, more... greatness
I really think that SC2 is capable of sustaining such success because it's a great game which just needs proper support in order to prosper as an esports. We can see that this works in the foreign scene where we have growing viewer numbers again and some new players. Why shouldn't this be possible in South Korea, too?
Here are the ideas suggested/discussed in this thread:
- Make Code A great again!
- Fund a Korean rookie team
- rookie world championship
- reserved rookie slots in GSL
- small rookie tournaments on full production value hype
- Global Challenger League
- Get big companies back into funding SC2 teams again
- your idea could be written down here!
- ...?
|
This is what I suggested in the region-lock-thread:
On November 06 2018 19:20 fronkschnonk wrote:I think there could be a Code A for GSL which would feature 20 additional spots to the 32 players of Code S. I suggested this before: 1. financing: GSL vs the World (94k $ prizemoney) could be cancelled. 31,3k $ prizemoney per season of code A would be enough. Costs for accomodation and flights would also be saved and thus available for studio costs etc. 2. Format:Code A + Show Spoiler +- 4 groups of 8 players, round robin format = 32 players
- top 3 of each group (or top 12 of all players if another format) advances to code S = 12 players advancing
The amount of players could be adjusted to 28 or 24 with groups of 7 or 6 players, if there aren't enough players who try to qualify Code S + Show Spoiler +- 25th-32nd of code S goes down to code A = 8 players
- 17th-24th of Code S has to fight in relegation matches - top 4 stay in code S, last 4 go to code A
This way we'd have 12 players who are seeded into next code A (3 in each group) - the other 20 (or 16 or 12 if you reduce Code A spots) spots have to be filled via qualifiers Total amount of players in codeA+codeS would be 52 (or 48 or 44) 3. Bonus idea:Winners of qualifier-groups could compete for 4 spots into the relegation matches of Code S. Then we had 4 players staying or advancing to code S and 8 players going to Code A. This way we had a bigger fluctuation of players in Code S which was an issue in early Code S/Code A format in 2011/12. Also it would create the possibility for cool newcomer stories and great players wouldn't get stuck in Code A when they actually could compete on Code S level. The question remains if there would be enough players for such a system. We would need at least 12 additional players for a serious competition in Code A (else Code A would look ridiculous). Based on last Code S qualifiers this could be: Trust, Taeja, Byul, Patience, Creator, SuperNova, TOP, Labyrinth, Spear, Fantasy, Prince, Rookie
|
Germany15880 Posts
region-lock GSL so newcomers won't have to compete with ~10 top tier foreigners in the qualifiers and actually have a shot at breaking into the scene.
|
On November 07 2018 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:
region-lock GSL so newcomers won't have to compete with ~10 top tier foreigners in the qualifiers and actually have a shot at breaking into the scene.
If that was the topic I wanted to talk about I would've sticked to the region-lock thread. I don't think that region lock will solve the problem but that's not the question of this thread. The topic of this thread is how to find additional support for the Korean scene.
|
There should be a rookie world championship at the end of the year to find the "Rookie of the Year"- it could be as small as a four-player invitational for the top 4 new players in WCS points. No need for complex solutions, but it gives a massive incentive for new players to get into the scene in Korea.
|
Korea never latched on to SC2 like they did with Brood War. Aside from KeSPA coming over there has been basically no new blood in Korea since the game came out. Just looking at the players whop qualified for Code S this season, every single Korean either came over when KeSPA switch to SC2 or made their debut in WoL. The lack of any sort of support for players outside of the top 32 certainly doesn't help, but the lack of new blood is hardly a new issue.
|
Korea (South)227 Posts
lack of new blood in Korea is more about just lack of interest then funding. Sure, funding has been cut in some ways in recent years, but its because of the lack of interest in going pro in this game that caused this. League has been the crown jewel of Korea (and still is, with its no.1 PC bang spot still ongoing) ever since something like 2012-2013 and Starcraft II just never managed to grab attention with young people as other titles have done.
I guess it also doesn't help that being a direct sequel to Starcraft Brood War any and all mistakes that Starcraft II had early on were scrutinized and blown out of proportion due to people's expectations being sky high at the start.
Its going to be an almost impossible task to get "new" blood in Starcraft II. I do know some younger amateur non pros who are fairly young (some younger than Maru) but most aren't truly committed to a pro gamer life, especially when OWL or LOL pays just so much more than anything Starcraft II can pay.
|
I think we should accept, that SC2 is dead in S.Korea by KESPA hands and BlIzzard decisions. It's dead. Try to compare or try to remember what was in 2014-2015. Instead, get your fcking micro-transactions, skins and banners (it's very important to support sc2).
|
On November 07 2018 11:10 dummy1 wrote:
I think we should accept, that SC2 is dead in S.Korea by KESPA hands and BlIzzard decisions. It's dead. Try to compare or try to remember what was in 2014-2015. Instead, get your fcking micro-transactions, skins and banners (it's very important to support sc2).
+1. Kudos for you to say it as it is. Korean SC2 scene is practically dead. Zero new blood. Couple new players tried one season of GSL and then disappeared completely as they realized too many top players compete for one single prize pool left in Korea which is GSL.
The scene is basically the same group of players for the past 3 years. Half of them are probably at the age when they are ready for army service including some of the most winning players: Zest, Classic, sOs, herO and soO. After they are gone, what is left? At this rate, Losira will finally qualify for BlizzCon.
|
South Korea needs a region locked Code A. Prizepool finances arent really the problem. You can lower for instance Blizzcon prizepool quite abit and get some outside sponsorship to have healthy spread out prizepools for a tournament like that, but the tournament cost to host it. You need alot of passionate souls in Korea that wants to do this work for little to no money. If the market was there, im sure it would have happened.
The only reson ppl outside of Korea even cares about this is sentimental. They had an edge over everyone else because the entire country got behind it, which was cool. While in the rest of the world you were living out of your parents house getting yelled at every night for wasting your time
South Korea still has 3 + 1? premier tournaments located in 1 country. The rest they will have to figure out themself if there is intrest enough.
|
I think it'd be nice if a few slots of GSL was reserved for rookies. That way they'd at least get a chance to play in a televised match. Alternatively maybe just hosting a rookie only weekend tournament with minimal prize money but the full GSL cast/crew to make them feel like its a real thing. I'm sure tons of amateurs would play their heart out for a chance to get interviewed with Gyuri and be on stage and stuff. Plus I think there might actually be people who would watch.
|
On November 07 2018 07:57 fronkschnonk wrote:This is what I suggested in the region-lock-thread: Show nested quote +On November 06 2018 19:20 fronkschnonk wrote:I think there could be a Code A for GSL which would feature 20 additional spots to the 32 players of Code S. I suggested this before: 1. financing: GSL vs the World (94k $ prizemoney) could be cancelled. 31,3k $ prizemoney per season of code A would be enough. Costs for accomodation and flights would also be saved and thus available for studio costs etc. 2. Format:Code A + Show Spoiler +- 4 groups of 8 players, round robin format = 32 players
- top 3 of each group (or top 12 of all players if another format) advances to code S = 12 players advancing
The amount of players could be adjusted to 28 or 24 with groups of 7 or 6 players, if there aren't enough players who try to qualify Code S + Show Spoiler +- 25th-32nd of code S goes down to code A = 8 players
- 17th-24th of Code S has to fight in relegation matches - top 4 stay in code S, last 4 go to code A
This way we'd have 12 players who are seeded into next code A (3 in each group) - the other 20 (or 16 or 12 if you reduce Code A spots) spots have to be filled via qualifiers Total amount of players in codeA+codeS would be 52 (or 48 or 44) 3. Bonus idea:Winners of qualifier-groups could compete for 4 spots into the relegation matches of Code S. Then we had 4 players staying or advancing to code S and 8 players going to Code A. This way we had a bigger fluctuation of players in Code S which was an issue in early Code S/Code A format in 2011/12. Also it would create the possibility for cool newcomer stories and great players wouldn't get stuck in Code A when they actually could compete on Code S level. The question remains if there would be enough players for such a system. We would need at least 12 additional players for a serious competition in Code A (else Code A would look ridiculous). Based on last Code S qualifiers this could be: Trust, Taeja, Byul, Patience, Creator, SuperNova, TOP, Labyrinth, Spear, Fantasy, Prince, Rookie
You talk about GSL vs the world being cancelled in terms of cost saved... How would Code A pull the same number of viewers as GSL vs the World? there' simply no sense in cancelling a profitable event for a non profitable event.
|
I think they should create a global challenger league that's similar to premier league, except that it's a global event. Have qualifiers for each region as well as a wildcard challenger. Then, run it online like prior WCS seasons except for like the top 8 or something. To make sure that good players don't just stomp everyone, put a WCS Global/KR point cap on the tournament so that if people reach a certain number of either WCS Global/KR points, they cannot continue to compete.
Part of people's complaints have also been that the current WCS system doesn't do enough to help out people who fall out in challenger. This league can help those players as well as encourage rookies in the WCS Korea system.
Running it online also has the added benefit of greatly reducing costs. You don't have to fly anyone out or use studio time to do it. And if there needs to be an offline portion, only do it in the playoffs.
|
On November 07 2018 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:
region-lock GSL so newcomers won't have to compete with ~10 top tier foreigners in the qualifiers and actually have a shot at breaking into the scene.
I don't understand, Koreans are supposedly so much better than foreigners, why would those superior beings need this to beat trash players like neeb, reynor or Serral ? :/
It won't change much, like the gsk 2017 or the s1 2018, the best koreans will still benefit of it but not the "new blood" locked in ro32. A better repartition of the price with a global would be better. However the thing that some don't consider is from 2013-8 there have been little to no new blood, talent pool of Korea is reduced because young koreans do not play sc2.
Edit : I don't remember but the all code a version has little audience right? Apart from a final with Curious, I don't think I saw any match.
|
|
|
Here is my idea about funding a Korean rookie team:
If somehow we get some money from somewhere it would be cool to cast 4 Code A players to form a rookie-team with a teamhouse and a coach (perhaps somehow in cooperation with foreigner house?). As long as the players requalify for Code A the next season they will remain in the team. If not, another Code A player will be casted. This obviously would have to be restarted each year in order to give chances to new rookies.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 07 2018 17:00 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:
region-lock GSL so newcomers won't have to compete with ~10 top tier foreigners in the qualifiers and actually have a shot at breaking into the scene. I don't understand, Koreans are supposedly so much better than foreigners, why would those superior beings need this to beat trash players like neeb, reynor or Serral ? :/ It won't change much, like the gsk 2017 or the s1 2018, the best koreans will still benefit of it but not the "new blood" locked in ro32. A better repartition of the price with a global would be better. However the thing that some don't consider is from 2013-8 there have been little to no new blood, talent pool of Korea is reduced because young koreans do not play sc2. Edit : I don't remember but the all code a version has little audience right? Apart from a final with Curious, I don't think I saw any match.
Ro32 3rd & 4th place is 2.7k USD. While this isn't HUGE MONEY, OMG, $O$. It's still enough to interest rookies. These rookies are not on KeSPA team, Koreans are not born with SC profeciency(SURPRISE!!!!!) therefore these human beings need a help to reach those 2.7k USD. This is by far the easiest and most fair solution to begin with
|
On November 07 2018 16:03 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 07:57 fronkschnonk wrote:This is what I suggested in the region-lock-thread: On November 06 2018 19:20 fronkschnonk wrote:I think there could be a Code A for GSL which would feature 20 additional spots to the 32 players of Code S. I suggested this before: 1. financing: GSL vs the World (94k $ prizemoney) could be cancelled. 31,3k $ prizemoney per season of code A would be enough. Costs for accomodation and flights would also be saved and thus available for studio costs etc. 2. Format:Code A + Show Spoiler +- 4 groups of 8 players, round robin format = 32 players
- top 3 of each group (or top 12 of all players if another format) advances to code S = 12 players advancing
The amount of players could be adjusted to 28 or 24 with groups of 7 or 6 players, if there aren't enough players who try to qualify Code S + Show Spoiler +- 25th-32nd of code S goes down to code A = 8 players
- 17th-24th of Code S has to fight in relegation matches - top 4 stay in code S, last 4 go to code A
This way we'd have 12 players who are seeded into next code A (3 in each group) - the other 20 (or 16 or 12 if you reduce Code A spots) spots have to be filled via qualifiers Total amount of players in codeA+codeS would be 52 (or 48 or 44) 3. Bonus idea:Winners of qualifier-groups could compete for 4 spots into the relegation matches of Code S. Then we had 4 players staying or advancing to code S and 8 players going to Code A. This way we had a bigger fluctuation of players in Code S which was an issue in early Code S/Code A format in 2011/12. Also it would create the possibility for cool newcomer stories and great players wouldn't get stuck in Code A when they actually could compete on Code S level. The question remains if there would be enough players for such a system. We would need at least 12 additional players for a serious competition in Code A (else Code A would look ridiculous). Based on last Code S qualifiers this could be: Trust, Taeja, Byul, Patience, Creator, SuperNova, TOP, Labyrinth, Spear, Fantasy, Prince, Rookie You talk about GSL vs the world being cancelled in terms of cost saved... How would Code A pull the same number of viewers as GSL vs the World? there' simply no sense in cancelling a profitable event for a non profitable event.
I don't think that GSL vs the world was profitable at all. All of SC2-Blizz events are basically a donation from Blizzard because they want to stay relevant as a big player in esports.
Also, if you add all 3 code A seasons the total viewer numbers probably won't be that much lower than those of GSL vs the world.
|
Russian Federation367 Posts
The best way to bring KR SC2 alive is to bring SC2 alive worldwide. How to do it? Developers should stop acting like their game can compete in game speed with games like LoL. Overwatch, DotA and ect and realize that SC2 is a chess, not a checkers or football.
Make game strategic again like it was in SCBW and WoL to some degree. Bring SC2 back to chess state and make it cool in peoples eyes to play chess-like game. Stop trying to turn SC2 into football like game with tons of action, you just ruined it and made it a weird checkers-like game that no one cares about except for a few fans.
p.s. Sadly Activision won't do it ever. They are fine getting small amounts a money from something that they claim as a dead game. Activision never in their life cared about making a long lasting product that will give you money over a long period of time (like lol/dota), instead they are using old strategy: make a product, get as much money from it as it possible in shortest amount of time possible, leave this product dying and create a new flash that will make a burst of money and dissapear right after.
|
new blood are always in GSL pre-main event but always get crushed by even the most underwhelmed pro players
the only way for us to see real new bloods is opening proleguage tournament again to motivate disbanded team like kts,samsung..ect...No other options...
|
First of all, we must to fall on our knees and start begging korean companies to bring back teams like SKT, T1, Samsung/CJ and others. This is not a joke. Only richest can give us what we want. Loyalty In exchange for...
Meanwhile. Points system should be changed. Be more friendly to newbies. Instead of it we needs in more advanced system. Like additional points for each map that player has won. And achievements like it was shown in SSL 2017.
Separate by leagues. Code B, Code A and Code S.
Code B. Online League for masters. First place is a guaranteed spot for Code A or paid travel spot in Ro.16 WSC Circuits.
Code A. Offline League. 6k GMs. SSL 2017s format. First place is a guaranteed spot in Code S Ro.32 or paid travel spot in Ro.16 WSC Circuits.
P.S. I like group stage format from IEM Katowice.
|
Nobody cares about SC2 in Korea.
There are ads about Overwatch or PUBG on buses and everywhere else. If you ask some1 about starcraft, everybody are thinking about SCBW.
SC2 is gone and never been strong in Korea for real.
Many people moved from SC2 to SCR, and many will move to WC3 'remastered' when is available.
For new blood to come, its needed some actions from Blizzard but I believe the auditory in Korea won't care about SC2 ever again.
After Blizzard's greedy actions that helped to destroy KeSPA and scared big companies away from investing in StarCraft teams and events I don't think they care about SC2 in Korea either - they'd have blizzcon cast prepared if they do... They are trying to get as much money as possible through chests but overall the state of the real RTS game is bad.
|
If Code A was sustainable, it would still be around. We had the korean scene dwindling while it was around, so the idea that it is a potential solution is a farce.
Personally I would LOVE to watch a rookie tournament if it had production value. A few important things though: it would have to be very rare, maybe even once a year otherwise everyone will quickly burn out, I struggle to watch GSL as it is with life commitments. The average starcraft fan is older now, and has limited time.
|
Blow the region lock as it is right now, but force players to choose either GSL or WCS for the length of a tournament.
Example :
Player A is qualified for GSL season 1 => he can't play any WCS Circuit tournament during the span of GSL season 1
Player B is not qualified for GSL S1 => he can play WCS Circuit up until it's over, and then either choose to stay in Circuit or try to qualify for GSL S2
And the other way around with GSL and WCS Circuit.
This way, better WCS players will not play GSL except if they are ready to commit to it (and it will not be the case for most of them I believe) and South Korean players not at the very top of the scene can qualify to WCS if they are good enough to do so (and some will be), but not ready yet for GSL.
The only problem with this solution are:
1/ Scheduling GSL and WCS Circuit so that one tournament does not prevent players to play multiple tournament in the other Region (except for 2 WCS circuit during 1 GSL as there is 4 WCS Circuit and 3 GSL)
2/ Finding money to flight abroad and play Circuit for lesser known SK players. (Some veterans may very well be favored by the system though.)
3/ Finding a way to make a merged and fair points system.
|
On November 07 2018 20:14 Serimek wrote:
Blow the region lock as it is right now, but force players to choose either GSL or WCS for the length of a tournament.
Example :
Player A is qualified for GSL season 1 => he can't play any WCS Circuit tournament during the span of GSL season 1
Player B is not qualified for GSL S1 => he can play WCS Circuit up until it's over, and then either choose to stay in Circuit or try to qualify for GSL S2
And the other way around with GSL and WCS Circuit.
This way, better WCS players will not play GSL except if they are ready to commit to it (and it will not be the case for most of them I believe) and South Korean players not at the very top of the scene can qualify to WCS if they are good enough to do so (and some will be), but not ready yet for GSL.
The only problem with this solution are:
1/ Scheduling GSL and WCS Circuit so that one tournament does not prevent players to play multiple tournament in the other Region (except for 2 WCS circuit during 1 GSL as there is 4 WCS Circuit and 3 GSL)
2/ Finding money to flight abroad and play Circuit for lesser known SK players. (Some veterans may very well be favored by the system though.)
3/ Finding a way to make a merged and fair points system.
The thing is, Afreeca don't want this, WCS don't want this. Having foreigners in GSL adds to their view count.
We can debate all day about whether locking koreans out of WCS is fair, but locking foreigners out of GSL to make it even is not a solution.
If the problem is simply being fair to Koreans, then we should lift the lock altogether. But that's not the main problem, the system IS deliberately unfair to Koreans, and that unfairness carries a purpose with supporting the western scene.
The debatable point is - is this still necessary, nothing else.
|
the ideas that get thrown around in this type of thread are really emblematic of the deeply flawed and awkward way people view korea when it comes to starcraft.
i understand since korea is one of the traditional fertile grounds for SC2 it's somewhat natural to think korean SC inherently needs to be "saved" if it dies, but it doesn't. if a given country can't sustain growth for a game then maybe the game isn't destined to be special there anymore.
trying to bribe young korean people to play starcraft doesn't change anything about the reality of public interest in the game. sc2 has had a marvelous run and it's still going, but one day it will end. koreans are not a requisite for the game to exist though.
the people who will think "if there are no koreans im not interested" - cool, so don't be interested? again, bribing people to fake caring about a game doesn't generate talent. didn't work for heroes of the storm
there cannot simply be an endless stream of blame for blizzard if the public shrugs about starcraft. the public is entitled to not give a fuck about a game even if you and i may think the game is great
|
Germany15880 Posts
On November 07 2018 08:50 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:
region-lock GSL so newcomers won't have to compete with ~10 top tier foreigners in the qualifiers and actually have a shot at breaking into the scene. If that was the topic I wanted to talk about I would've sticked to the region-lock thread. I don't think that region lock will solve the problem but that's not the question of this thread. The topic of this thread is how to find additional support for the Korean scene.
It is the question of the thread. If you don't want certain topics to be discussed you should state so in the OP.
|
How to get new blood in this game ? Make team games viable again. My best moments since SC2 beta was not when I achieved new leagues but when I pulled fun tactics with friends.
|
TBH bringing out a new game is the only way i feel. Even in the circuit scene "new guys" like serral reynor and clem started playing when the hype was real so sc2 scene in general has the same problems. I do feel its an esports problem in general. I doubt that league would get new players if worlds weren't in any news. Maybe make events for a younger audience, like age 12-16? ^^
|
On November 07 2018 21:14 brickrd wrote:
the ideas that get thrown around in this type of thread are really emblematic of the deeply flawed and awkward way people view korea when it comes to starcraft.
i understand since korea is one of the traditional fertile grounds for SC2 it's somewhat natural to think korean SC inherently needs to be "saved" if it dies, but it doesn't. if a given country can't sustain growth for a game then maybe the game isn't destined to be special there anymore.
trying to bribe young korean people to play starcraft doesn't change anything about the reality of public interest in the game. sc2 has had a marvelous run and it's still going, but one day it will end. koreans are not a requisite for the game to exist though.
the people who will think "if there are no koreans im not interested" - cool, so don't be interested? again, bribing people to fake caring about a game doesn't generate talent. didn't work for heroes of the storm
there cannot simply be an endless stream of blame for blizzard if the public shrugs about starcraft. the public is entitled to not give a fuck about a game even if you and i may think the game is great
bribing people to fake caring about a game, how is it different to what blizzard does with the WCS circuit?
|
Brood War is popular in Korea and there is no new blood either ( according to the ASL and KSL brackets ) . RTS are not popular enough nowadays to attract enough young passionate and talented players who could be the stars of tomorrow.
|
On November 07 2018 21:14 brickrd wrote:
i understand since korea is one of the traditional fertile grounds for SC2 it's somewhat natural to think korean SC inherently needs to be "saved" if it dies, but it doesn't. if a given country can't sustain growth for a game then maybe the game isn't destined to be special there anymore.
[/b]
Ah yes because the foreign scene was totally alive before the WCS region lock! /s
In 2014 the foreign scene was basically ...Snute. Literally no other foreign player would win any games vs Koreans and no one really cared anymore. Blizzard pumped a bunch of money/effort into the scene and revitalized it. There's no reason why they shouldn't do it for Korean leagues now.
|
Bring back the Courage tournaments!
Seriously as much as i disliked much of what Kespa did, they monopoly on progamer licences made people want to compete even without any prizepool with the hope of getting a license and being picked up by a pro team.
Since there s no Kespa and no Proleague, amateurs dont have much possibility to break into the scene, and the incentives arent really there either.
Bringing a sort of code A back would be nice, with some exclusivity rules, like if you made it to ro16 of code S in one of the past 2 seasons, you re not allowed to play at all.
Or a sort of Ladder based competition, like what the first and second TSL-s were for the foreigners, and you make a top 16based on ladder score (excluding code S players). I admit it would work less well, since the only option would be to play on the KR ladder, where the code S pros also practice, so it would kinda turn into a dodge-game, but maybe someone can take that idea and do someething with it.
Man, I loved TSL.
|
There are several reasons why the Starcraft 2 scene isn't bringing in anyone knew in South Korea, and frankly the world.
1 - The game is just so hard to pick up and learn to play on a competitive level. For someone wanting to get into Starcraft it can take a long time to get comfortable and climb the ladder. This is just as true on a pro level as well. You get these new guys like Nightmare and Speed who can kind of compete and I'm sure spent hours and hours laddering and practicing just to make it to the ro32 and MAYBE the ro16 where the prize pool isn't anything to drool over, everyone who gets past the ro16 is just too good and has been at it for too long so the chances of beating them are slim to none.
2 - With the withdrawal of KESPA support and the team leagues disappearing left much of the excitement about competition. For me personally, and I'm sure with others as well, I was much more excited to watch Proleague than I was to watch an individual league. Not only that, but as a result there are just a small fraction of companies willing to pay and sponsor players in the area now, which results in even less money for the players hard work.
3 - This may be the smallest point of the three, but I really think Blizzard shot themselves in the foot when they didn't originally include a legitimate Korean casting team for Blizzcon. They tried to fix the situation, but it really feels like to me a band-aid fix for a large open wound. None of the GSL casters were included, which are the most widely watched and adored in the Korean scene. If I were Korean, I'd feel like Blizzard either forgot about or didn't care enough about my interests. But this is just one example of a time where Blizzard has made poor decisions that have led to the diminishing amount of viewers and players we're not seeing.
With all that being said, I don't think that Starcraft is dead or really ever will be. It seems like the people involved in the community are here for the long haul, and as long as there are people passionate enough to donate, watch, and support the players and streamers it's never going to die. So I guess to answer your question, I don't think we'll ever see new blood in South Korea. I just don't think it's possible at this point, sorry for being such a pessimist!
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 08 2018 00:16 Shock_sc2 wrote:
...
With all that being said, I don't think that Starcraft is dead or really ever will be. It seems like the people involved in the community are here for the long haul, and as long as there are people passionate enough to donate, watch, and support the players and streamers it's never going to die. So I guess to answer your question, I don't think we'll ever see new blood in South Korea. I just don't think it's possible at this point, sorry for being such a pessimist!
Unless Afreeca pays people to visit the studio(which wouldn't surprise me considering in some countries you pay strippers to attend funerals(and you pay people to attend it as well, but I remember mostly the strippers thing  )) the SC2 is* was on a little rise. The studios were filling quite nicely to the previously empty ones.
*The question is how much will they** be interested in the next season considering your #3 and maybe some other issues
** folks watching SC2 in Korea
|
On November 07 2018 12:47 Brutaxilos wrote:
I think it'd be nice if a few slots of GSL was reserved for rookies. That way they'd at least get a chance to play in a televised match. Alternatively maybe just hosting a rookie only weekend tournament with minimal prize money but the full GSL cast/crew to make them feel like its a real thing. I'm sure tons of amateurs would play their heart out for a chance to get interviewed with Gyuri and be on stage and stuff. Plus I think there might actually be people who would watch.
I had the same idea. Give 1-4 spots in the ro32 to players under 21 or something like that.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 08 2018 01:11 leublix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 12:47 Brutaxilos wrote:
I think it'd be nice if a few slots of GSL was reserved for rookies. That way they'd at least get a chance to play in a televised match. Alternatively maybe just hosting a rookie only weekend tournament with minimal prize money but the full GSL cast/crew to make them feel like its a real thing. I'm sure tons of amateurs would play their heart out for a chance to get interviewed with Gyuri and be on stage and stuff. Plus I think there might actually be people who would watch. I had the same idea. Give 1-4 spots in the ro32 to players under 21 or something like that.
They can do some BO3 during the downtime in regular group matches. Bam, you don't need a special day to pay the stuff. Instead the show would take 30 minutes longer. Rookies get their airtime, we get more SC2, the offtime will be more bearable, players can take the rest before their important match. Everybody wins!
|
|
|
Young players play "the latest shit". They're not going to start playing an almost 10-year old game just because. They will play what their friends play. The fact that SC2 resides in an outdated video game genre doesn't help: nobody develops 1on1 RTS games anymore, probably because nobody would play them (unless they were really a trend setting masterpiece I imagine).
You just have to accept that SC2 is not in the growth part of its life cyle. Not saying it's a ded gaem, just saying its best years are behind us.
|
On November 08 2018 02:01 ZenithM wrote:
Young players play "the latest shit". They're not going to start playing an almost 10-year old game just because. They will play what their friends play. The fact that SC2 resides in an outdated video game genre doesn't help: nobody develops 1on1 RTS games anymore, probably because nobody would play them (unless they were really a trend setting masterpiece I imagine).
You just have to accept that SC2 is not in the growth part of its life cyle. Not saying it's a ded gaem, just saying its best years are behind us.
I don't think we need "young" players necessarily. Just "new" players. Besides a few players like Reynor, most WCS players are also over 20 years old (some of them much older).
|
Why can't Korea just hire the players like LCS does and pay the players a livable salary so players don't think their life is over if they lose in the ro32.
|
On November 08 2018 02:41 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 02:01 ZenithM wrote:
Young players play "the latest shit". They're not going to start playing an almost 10-year old game just because. They will play what their friends play. The fact that SC2 resides in an outdated video game genre doesn't help: nobody develops 1on1 RTS games anymore, probably because nobody would play them (unless they were really a trend setting masterpiece I imagine).
You just have to accept that SC2 is not in the growth part of its life cyle. Not saying it's a ded gaem, just saying its best years are behind us. I don't think we need "young" players necessarily. Just "new" players. Besides a few players like Reynor, most WCS players are also over 20 years old (some of them much older).
I mean to me sub-25 qualifies as "young". The new players have to come from somewhere, and typically they will come from a pool of people that have a lot of free time (aka young) to get good at the game.
And at that age you're also not playing games if your friends don't play them too. So that's why I understood OP's question as "how do you make an unpopular 10-year old game popular?" which to me has no answer.
Like it almost sounds like there is this assumption that a lot of "new" Korean players are out there but they don't get the chance to rise up or something. There just aren't enough players for new stars to rise up.
OP's idea of what makes an eSports game is a bit backward. The game is massively popular, hence it's competitive (if the gameplay allows it of course), hence money flocks to it. You don't pump money into an unpopular game.
Also it seems there is this assumption that foreigners are now competitive with Koreans somehow, and I didn't keep in touch with the scene much, but just looking at the finals brackets it seems that Serral is the exception rather than the rule. Am I missing something here?
|
On November 08 2018 02:57 blardoh wrote:
Why can't Korea just hire the players like LCS does and pay the players a livable salary so players don't think their life is over if they lose in the ro32.
You make it sound like korean SC2 should become a charity. Sponsors and businesses are not going to invest in the korean scene without at least an expectation of a minimal financial return.
No one in their right minds will invest into the korean scene knowing ahead of time they will lose money on the deal. SC2 esports is first and foremost a business.
|
On November 08 2018 03:28 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 02:41 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 08 2018 02:01 ZenithM wrote:
Young players play "the latest shit". They're not going to start playing an almost 10-year old game just because. They will play what their friends play. The fact that SC2 resides in an outdated video game genre doesn't help: nobody develops 1on1 RTS games anymore, probably because nobody would play them (unless they were really a trend setting masterpiece I imagine).
You just have to accept that SC2 is not in the growth part of its life cyle. Not saying it's a ded gaem, just saying its best years are behind us. I don't think we need "young" players necessarily. Just "new" players. Besides a few players like Reynor, most WCS players are also over 20 years old (some of them much older). I mean to me sub-25 qualifies as "young". The new players have to come from somewhere, and typically they will come from a pool of people that have a lot of free time (aka young) to get good at the game. And at that age you're also not playing games if your friends don't play them too. So that's why I understood OP's question as "how do you make an unpopular 10-year old game popular?" which to me has no answer. Like it almost sounds like there is this assumption that a lot of "new" Korean players are out there but they don't get the chance to rise up or something. There just aren't enough players for new stars to rise up.
I'm sure there are probably at least 100 GM non-pros on the KR server that can take games off pros. They could possibly transition to pros if given the chance?
|
ladder tournaments with money prizes and tournament appearances.
|
On November 07 2018 23:14 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 21:14 brickrd wrote:
i understand since korea is one of the traditional fertile grounds for SC2 it's somewhat natural to think korean SC inherently needs to be "saved" if it dies, but it doesn't. if a given country can't sustain growth for a game then maybe the game isn't destined to be special there anymore.
Ah yes because the foreign scene was totally alive before the WCS region lock! /s In 2014 the foreign scene was basically ...Snute. Literally no other foreign player would win any games vs Koreans and no one really cared anymore. Blizzard pumped a bunch of money/effort into the scene and revitalized it. There's no reason why they shouldn't do it for Korean leagues now.
nothing you wrote relates to anything i wrote. i didn't write anything about the foreign scene or about whether it was stronger or weaker before any WCS changes. did you reply to the wrong person? no worries if so
On November 07 2018 22:53 sunnyshine wrote:
bribing people to fake caring about a game, how is it different to what blizzard does with the WCS circuit?
i didn't say anything about WCS circuit or my opinion of it. why are people replying to my post with unrelated stuff?
|
On November 08 2018 04:15 nanaoei wrote:
ladder tournaments with money prizes and tournament appearances.
Problem is that'll still only go to the best Korean pros. Maybe a smaller Code A that features 32 players, is KR-only, and happens after Code S ro32 to give low-tier Koreans some more chances at prize money. Make the prize money for most placements less than a GSL ro16 so players in the ro32 are decentivized from throwing or not playing their best to try and score more prize money.
Tbh though, I'm not exactly sure how to fix the lack of new blood in KR. It's persisted for the entire lifespan of SC2 just about. We can keep throwing money at the scene, but Korea just didn't like SC2, and convincing people to give something they didn't like another shot is very difficult
|
Just look at the interview with soO (linked it at page1) that tells a lot.
|
On November 08 2018 04:21 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 23:14 Brutaxilos wrote:On November 07 2018 21:14 brickrd wrote:
i understand since korea is one of the traditional fertile grounds for SC2 it's somewhat natural to think korean SC inherently needs to be "saved" if it dies, but it doesn't. if a given country can't sustain growth for a game then maybe the game isn't destined to be special there anymore.
Ah yes because the foreign scene was totally alive before the WCS region lock! /s In 2014 the foreign scene was basically ...Snute. Literally no other foreign player would win any games vs Koreans and no one really cared anymore. Blizzard pumped a bunch of money/effort into the scene and revitalized it. There's no reason why they shouldn't do it for Korean leagues now. nothing you wrote relates to anything i wrote. i didn't write anything about the foreign scene or about whether it was stronger or weaker before any WCS changes. did you reply to the wrong person? no worries if so Show nested quote +On November 07 2018 22:53 sunnyshine wrote:
bribing people to fake caring about a game, how is it different to what blizzard does with the WCS circuit? i didn't say anything about WCS circuit or my opinion of it. why are people replying to my post with unrelated stuff?
What Brutaxilos is saying is that Blizzard came in and "saved" the foreign scene from dying out, so they should do the same for Korea.
|
On November 08 2018 03:28 ZenithM wrote:
Also it seems there is this assumption that foreigners are now competitive with Koreans somehow, and I didn't keep in touch with the scene much, but just looking at the finals brackets it seems that Serral is the exception rather than the rule. Am I missing something here?
There's two things. First, this is not the only tournament that other foreigners have won against Koreans. Scarlett won against sOs in Pyeongchang, and Neeb won against herO in Hangzhou. There have also been other very high placings by foreigners in GSL and WESG.
Second, you have to consider the competitiveness of the games being played. Back in 2014, you'd generally have blowouts against foreigners, but now, games are much closer even by people not really considered to be the top. You'd also have only the top foreigners, like Stephanon, Naniwa, or Snute being able to take games or make it close, but now you have Scarlett fighting closely against Koreans (almost beat Classic GSL vs. The World), you have Showtime, who although is a top player, has had a bit of a middling result in 2018, absolutely slaughtering Zest in GSL vs. The World.
Although foreigners may not be winning everything (aside from Serral), they are making the games a lot more competitive.
|
United States33201 Posts
I see it as more of a grassroots problem of StarCraft 2 being unpopular in Korea, rather than a top-down problem of Blizzard not correctly subsidizing the influx of new progamers. Unfortunately, the former is an issue that's almost impossible to address at this point in time without some kind of massive investment in an 8 year old game which is basically at the end of its product cycle.
The amount of prize money Blizzard puts into StarCraft II esports in Korea is already quite high. On a per-individual basis, it's higher than the prize money PUBG leagues in Korea paid out this year (based on my rudimentary research, but feel free to correct me). Yet, StarCraft II is stuck with the same player base while the entire Korean industry rushed to form/join pro PUBG teams. If the money Blizzard already puts into SC2 isn't already enough to attract new talent, I don't think there's an easy way to redirect that money to change that.
|
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
|
I don't think it's possible/realistic to fix, korea is bored of the game, young kids aren't going to play a game because of some career path or salary, they're going to play what they think is fun and what their friends are playing
|
This is a sad thread. Making me feel depressed. The scene has fallen so far since 2013.
|
On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
Keep in mind that during that time there was also proleague which was a huge incentive to try to become a pro.
|
Teams are necessary. Fresh blood could be invited first in the new potential teams. No matter how fast the new kids adapt, they will still practicing in team houses and they will get more consistent in time. And they will get salaries for their efforts thanks to the contracts they agreed.
In order to justify the presence of the teams - sponsors are required. And sponsors need guarantees that the interest in SCII in Korea is still big. And it isn't.
Region - locks comes next because Koreans cannot participate outside and to present the brands of their sponsors along with the teams. Korean pro's still remain outsiders despite most of the have already found foreign teams or smaller clans.
A Korean model of a team is so essential for e-sports in Korea, because for a new kid it will eventually meat one of the top players in the scene who is in his new team. And the kid suddenly sees the whole path to the top and has a clear vision what to do and what a super effort must perform to reach this hyper level.
Nal_ra tried to return in pro-gaming about 9 years ago and this was documented in "Oldboy" serries. Back then he was probably 27-28 years old and the whole community almost laughed upon it, despite the gigantic respect toward the Broodwar legend. Yes, that's true because it is an age that is not supposed for a pro-gamer in most of the cases and now most of the top SCII players are at this age. This is not normal.
Of course Broodwar has totally different mechanics and it is harder to play in late age. In SCII many controls are automatically added. Now they will automatically add the warpgates after the upgrade is ready. It allows even to experienced and old players to focus on what they can do best.
|
On November 08 2018 08:52 Waxangel wrote:
I see it as more of a grassroots problem of StarCraft 2 being unpopular in Korea, rather than a top-down problem of Blizzard not correctly subsidizing the influx of new progamers. Unfortunately, the former is an issue that's almost impossible to address at this point in time without some kind of massive investment in an 8 year old game which is basically at the end of its product cycle.
The amount of prize money Blizzard puts into StarCraft II esports in Korea is already quite high. On a per-individual basis, it's higher than the prize money PUBG leagues in Korea paid out this year (based on my rudimentary research, but feel free to correct me). Yet, StarCraft II is stuck with the same player base while the entire Korean industry rushed to form/join pro PUBG teams. If the money Blizzard already puts into SC2 isn't already enough to attract new talent, I don't think there's an easy way to redirect that money to change that.
Sadly I agree 100% with this. OP is basically asking how to make sc2 popular in Korea and it is almost impossible at this point. All the big afreeca streamers play BW and the kids play what their friends are playing, LoL or PUBG.
|
On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea.
This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal:
McMonroe (Dec 2015)
Jardozer (Dec 2015)
FireFox (March 2015)
CalebAracous (Feb 2015)
Antis (Jan 2018)
aGile (Jan 2015)
THERIDDLER (Jan 2015)
TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015)
Sottorks (July 2016)
jheffe (May 2015)
Future (July 2016)
Rhizer (June 2016)
Ninja (Jan 2016)
MCanning (Jan 2015)
DisK (Jan 2015)
That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV.
In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far.
This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene.
|
On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene.
There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
|
On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
Yeah, pretty much this. If there were a code A we would see a similar amount of "new blood" in it's qualifiers.
|
On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
That's part of it. But remember, the reason why they got rid of Code A was because there wasn't enough interest to begin with. They didn't get rid of Code A because they wanted to save money or something. If there was enough interest, they would have a Code A. But for the most recent GSL, Look at some of the routes of qualification. Some, yes, have to face the top, but some people have really easy routes.
I chose a random GSL in a popular year. GSL 2012 Season 3. The number of players in the preliminaries dwarfs any number of qualifiers now (including WCS) but especially Korea. You had players like Losira, TLO, Super, Tails, and more competing in the preliminaries just to get into Code A. You had to be a pretty good player just to get into Code A. When there's interest in a scene, it doesn't really matter who you have to go up against. People compete just for the opportunity.
I agree that competing against top or near top pros (SortOf is a near top but not top pro) is definitely a factor that reduces interest, but I heavily disagree that it's the main one. Again, just look at a popular GSL preliminary in 2012/2011. You had tons of players going up against players on the caliber of the most recent GSL (in part because there's only a select few really good ones nowadays).
|
Germany15880 Posts
On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene.
When you compare offline qualifiers to online qualifiers the online qualifier will always have much more participants.
Let's see how those lists would look when you make GSL qualifiers online and WCS NA qualifiers offline
|
On November 09 2018 06:34 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? That's part of it. But remember, the reason why they got rid of Code A was because there wasn't enough interest to begin with. They didn't get rid of Code A because they wanted to save money or something. If there was enough interest, they would have a Code A. But for the most recent GSL, Look at some of the routes of qualification. Some, yes, have to face the top, but some people have really easy routes. I chose a random GSL in a popular year. GSL 2012 Season 3. The number of players in the preliminaries dwarfs any number of qualifiers now (including WCS) but especially Korea. You had players like Losira, TLO, Super, Tails, and more competing in the preliminaries just to get into Code A. You had to be a pretty good player just to get into Code A. When there's interest in a scene, it doesn't really matter who you have to go up against. People compete just for the opportunity. I agree that competing against top or near top pros (SortOf is a near top but not top pro) is definitely a factor that reduces interest, but I heavily disagree that it's the main one. Again, just look at a popular GSL preliminary in 2012/2011. You had tons of players going up against players on the caliber of the most recent GSL (in part because there's only a select few really good ones nowadays).
Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene?
|
United States33201 Posts
On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game?
I don't think the situation is significantly different in the non-Korean world. Getting into the money of WCS Challenger is worth $400—that's not going to affect anyone's decision to go pro or not (unless maybe you live in Ukraine or something). The line where you start to make a "living" is oppressively high in both regions, and I don't there's a qualitative difference between Korea and Circuit in that regard.
|
I don't think elite players are born chasing the opportunity to make money. Usually the best players of a game are just the players that like it a lot, play it a lot and are talented at it. Money isn't a factor unless we're talking sums that are 100 times greater than what SC2 is paying right now. I've never heard of any top video game player getting into gaming just because he/she saw there was a shitload of money to make...
So yeah, again, it comes down to: "do enough people like playing this game?". And in Korea it seems that the answer is no.
|
On November 09 2018 09:37 sunnyshine wrote:Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene?
But the teams in part existed because of that interest. Look at SC2 in general. What big teams are there? Or is it mostly smaller teams now? Back then, you had TL, EG, Millennium, Complexity, fnatic, Dignitas, and mousesports (to name a few). You had all these big teams that existed across different esports. But now? You have TL, Psistorm, Root, and some other ones. The other big organizations all left because they couldn't make money, because the scene itself wasn't profitable enough and/or the players retired. WCS Global is much larger than Korea, but WCS still has sponsor issues, and it's because the scene isn't that large compared to other esports.
The teams come from interest in the esport; if there is no interest, there are no teams. Look at BW. Korean SC existed almost entirely inside of Korea, but they had superstars and sponsors. Why? Because they had interest in the game and the infrastructure to support that interest.
Now, it is true that once the teams are formed, it's easier to support players, but teams only form because there are players.
EDIT:
On November 09 2018 09:17 Charoisaur wrote:When you compare offline qualifiers to online qualifiers the online qualifier will always have much more participants. Let's see how those lists would look when you make GSL qualifiers online and WCS NA qualifiers offline Looking strictly at US/CDN players (excluding Noregret, because he's not really local), I count 29 players in the open brackets of WCS Montreal 2018.
Of course the main tournament is likely to have a higher attendance than the qualifier, but it's closest thing we have. Besides, we're talking about the geographical area of a country that is 2.23% the size of Canada.
|
On November 09 2018 10:04 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2018 17:49 sunnyshine wrote:On November 08 2018 17:41 FrkFrJss wrote:On November 08 2018 13:39 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't buy the "there is no new blood in Korea and there never was"-argument. Let's have a look at qualifiers when we still had Code A.
2016 Season 3:
TANGTANG: on aligulac since 2013, member of prime since 2014, barely not qualifying for code A
DRGLing: on aligulac since 2015, joining Dust Gaming the same year, barely not qualifying for code A. He made it to code S the next season but fell off without any professional support.
Zoun: on aligulac since 2013, joining Prime in the end of 2014, later switching to SKT T1, barely not qualifying for code A
SGW: on aligulac since 2014, joining afreeca freecs in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of bravo
Nightmare: on aligulac 2014, joining Dust gaming in the same year, later picked up by CJ entus, barely not qualifying for code A
Rookie: on aligulac since 2013, joining CJ entus in 2016, which disbanded shortly after, taking a map of Ryung
Soloist: on aligulac since 2015, taking a map o MC
Eagle: on aligulac since 2015, making it to semifinals, later taking maps of Maru, Ragnarok and Hush in other qualifiers
Dandy: on aligulac since 2016, joining Root in 2018, taking a map of Sleep
To see those up and comers was nothing unusual for code A qualifiers. But since 2017 you barely see any noname (lest getting past the first round or even taking a map) because they don't stand a chance against all the CodeS-material players in the brackets.
But there are more or less fresh players still players trying to get better nowadays:
domickc (since 2018)
Rookie (since 2013)
Gamja (since 2013)
Price (since 2017)
sonagi (since 2013 - but really active since 2016, now on Dust gaming)
Lero (since 2017)
cypher (since 2018)
Dandy (since 2016, now on Root)
Stun (since 2013, now on Dust gaming)
And those are only the ones who are listed on aligulac - there are probably quite some quiet ladder heroes.
The "there is no new blood"-narrative is a myth. Give newcomers an opportunity and some of them will take it. They are still around every now and then. Just scout aligulac a bit and you'll be surprised how many players are trying who weren't seen ever before. But of course Newcomers will need somewhat stable to rely on because there are so many established and old veteran players around - to get on their level is a matter of years. So we have to be patient about their progress.
No one's really arguing that there isn't any new blood in South Korea. People are arguing that there isn't enough new blood in Korea. This is the list of notable participants in Qualifier 1 of NA Challenger for WCS Montreal: McMonroe (Dec 2015) Jardozer (Dec 2015) FireFox (March 2015) CalebAracous (Feb 2015) Antis (Jan 2018) aGile (Jan 2015) THERIDDLER (Jan 2015) TAGurPRGANT (Dec 2015) Sottorks (July 2016) jheffe (May 2015) Future (July 2016) Rhizer (June 2016) Ninja (Jan 2016) MCanning (Jan 2015) DisK (Jan 2015) That's 15 people since the beginning of 2015 from the first recorded aligulac match. These are all people who started competitively in 2015. I would consider these people to be relative newcomers to SC2. They're not like one or two years (for the most part) new competitively, but they are new as of LotV. In one qualifier, there's 15 notable participants, and I have to emphasize "notable," because I could have gone through the entire list of WCS AM qualifiers to see every single person. This is what we mean by "not enough blood." The fact that there are not more Korean amateurs signing up for the GSL qualifiers shows how few people there really. I'm not gonna pretend that the WCS AM scene is as active as it used to be back in 2011/2012, but it alone has more potential than the entire Korean scene so far. This does not mean that we can't aid the Korean scene in other ways or restructure some existing tournaments, but it does mean we have to be realistic about the state of the Korean scene. There's not as many KR amateurs signing up because you have to beat the best players in the world to qualify for GSL (top level koreans + top level foreigners), compared to NA challenger where the level of skill required to get into the money is much lower. How do you motivate a player who has to overcome near impossible odds and to only scrap by a living playing the game? I don't think the situation is significantly different in the non-Korean world. Getting into the money of WCS Challenger is worth $400—that's not going to affect anyone's decision to go pro or not (unless maybe you live in Ukraine or something). The line where you start to make a "living" is oppressively high in both regions, and I don't there's a qualitative difference between Korea and Circuit in that regard.
Fair enough that $400 isn't much, but its also something tangible to show for their efforts. It helps players justify having very little income whilst continuing to play the game. Even something like broadcasting qualifiers like how WCS does with challenger motivates players because them see themselves on show for thousands of people. If you want to encourage new pros you don't want a system that scares off any prospective talent, you want to encourage them to keep aiming for the top.
On November 09 2018 10:13 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2018 09:37 sunnyshine wrote:Back in 2012 you had teamhouses that ensured these players wouldn't end up on the streets if they didn't get into GSL. In the current environment who's giving the support to help nurture amateur players break into the scene? But the teams in part existed because of that interest. Look at SC2 in general. What big teams are there? Or is it mostly smaller teams now? Back then, you had TL, EG, Millennium, Complexity, fnatic, Dignitas, and mousesports (to name a few). You had all these big teams that existed across different esports. But now? You have TL, Psistorm, Root, and some other ones. The other big organizations all left because they couldn't make money, because the scene itself wasn't profitable enough and/or the players retired. WCS Global is much larger than Korea, but WCS still has sponsor issues, and it's because the scene isn't that large compared to other esports. The teams come from interest in the esport; if there is no interest, there are no teams. Look at BW. Korean SC existed almost entirely inside of Korea, but they had superstars and sponsors. Why? Because they had interest in the game and the infrastructure to support that interest. Now, it is true that once the teams are formed, it's easier to support players, but teams only form because there are players.
BW rose up in a different time, it is more the exception than the rule. These days you need developer support to nurture a competitive esports scene. When we see fortnite dumping $100 million into prize pools, if your game doesn't at least give some incentives, then there's no reason to aim to play it professionally. Blizzard have done it with the WCS circuit with challenger, they should also be doing it for KR with something like Code A.
|
I'm serious right now. Bring back 6 workers. Solved. I don't know about game speed, but bring back 6 workers.
|
On November 09 2018 14:04 sunnyshine wrote:BW rose up in a different time, it is more the exception than the rule. These days you need developer support to nurture a competitive esports scene. When we see fortnite dumping $100 million into prize pools, if your game doesn't at least give some incentives, then there's no reason to aim to play it professionally. Blizzard have done it with the WCS circuit with challenger, they should also be doing it for KR with something like Code A.
I think we're going in a bit of a circular argument. With the WCS challenger, we already had an existing and interested pool of players that would try to go semi-pro. With Code A, remember that they actually stopped Code A because they didn't have enough players.
On June 19 2018 04:48 afreecaTV.Char wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 03:15 Silvana wrote:
Are there enough Korean players to fill Code A? This is the main reason that made Mr. Chae suggest removing Code A back then. At the time I was shocked at the idea of losing Code A, but I understood his reasoning for it later. If there were enough players, Code A would exist. Besides, fortnite dumped millions of dollars into its prize pool after its player base had skyrocketed, not before.
|
with region lock, koreans cant go overseas to take foreigner lunch money. when there wasn't, the scene was thriving. blizzard killed korean scene with region lock. overnight kespa closed up shop, all the team houses died except jin air, and everyone retired. remove the evil region lock, it is no longer needed
|
I think it might be too late to 'save' Korean scene, because even Japan have better demographics than Korean SC2 scene  .
33% of top 20 Korean players (based on WCS points) will have to retire after the next season because they are 26 years old and they have to start military service before turning 28. Another 33% of top 20 will have retire within 2-3 years.
So soon 2/3 of Koreans will retire and there is no one to replace them. There is literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Mainly because young Koreans prefer other e-sports like Overwatch, LOL, DOTA2, which offer better pay and aren't region locked.
|
Germany15880 Posts
On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea.
Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural
but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone.
|
On November 10 2018 02:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone.
Well, we might have different definitions of promising young player. I meant someone as good as Raynor or at least Clem. There might be some smaller caliber talents in Korea, but I wouldn't bet my money on them being top players in the future.
|
SC as a whole worked because of ProLeague; you had the team houses to foster talent and skill, house players; you had the draft system for rookies where players like Flash ( if I recall, I am sure Letmelose can verify) became practice partners and edged their way into the team. ProLeague was making the system of acquiring talent sustainable (though sadly many didn't make it into teams).
What we have now are veterans of KESPA making the most of what they've got. I think a Code A for the best losers of the Code S qualifiers and others, or something similar might have an effect but I don't think it will happen.
A Korean rookie house might also work but it requires investment, and honestly I don't think it would be realistic for rookies to favour SC2 over education in its current state in Korea.
But an OWL-esque teamleague?! Fuck yeah! (Will never happen).
tl;dr the inherent infrastructure & supply and demand for new talent just isn't there any more.
|
On November 10 2018 03:06 DSK wrote:
SC as a whole worked because of ProLeague; you had the team houses to foster talent and skill, house players; you had the draft system for rookies where players like Flash ( if I recall, I am sure Letmelose can verify) became practice partners and edged their way into the team. ProLeague was making the system of acquiring talent sustainable (though sadly many didn't make it into teams).
What we have now are veterans of KESPA making the most of what they've got. I think a Code A for the best losers of the Code S qualifiers and others, or something similar might have an effect but I don't think it will happen.
A Korean rookie house might also work but it requires investment, and honestly I don't think it would be realistic for rookies to favour SC2 over education in its current state in Korea.
But an OWL-esque teamleague?! Fuck yeah! (Will never happen).
tl;dr the inherent infrastructure & supply and demand for new talent just isn't there any more.
Between the interactions of kespa and blilzzard and the scandal of whom that shall not be named, wasn't pro league and kespa forced into sc2?
|
Well, this thread is meant for thinking about possible ways to make the situation in Korea better. I mean, it's really interesting to discuss how this situation came about but this won't help.
Of course we'll never get back to the days of glory, of course SC2 will never be the most famous esport in South Korea. But it can be better, more vital and have some demographical fluctuation. South Korea may be a special place but it does not magically defy the rules of how humans work. SC2 is still a successful game with quite a playerbase in South Korea. It's not huge or dominant but it's big enough to build upon.
The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful.
On November 10 2018 02:49 aver_raiher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 02:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 10 2018 02:38 aver_raiher wrote:
There are literary not a single promising young player in Korea. Prince, HHs, Dandy, Rookie, Natural but I know - people like to act like they don't exist so they can keep up the narrative that foreigners taking Code S spots isn't hurting anyone. Well, we might have different definitions of promising young player. I meant someone as good as Raynor or at least Clem. There might be some smaller caliber talents in Korea, but I wouldn't bet my money on them being top players in the future.
We always had new players in South Korea as good as Reynor or Clem were 2 years ago. The problem is that they had no opportunity to break through while the WCS system gives such a talent quite some room to show his skills and to reach prestigious tournaments.
I'll say it again and again: The narrative of "there is no new talent is South Korea" is a myth. There is talent, it just needs to be given some chances.
|
On November 10 2018 07:29 fronkschnonk wrote:The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful.
I think region lock worked because there was already a substantial foreign playerbase. While there is up and coming talent in Korea, there's a far smaller pool to draw from. With that in mind, I think a non-region locked challenger league of sorts would be very helpful. It helps out the people who need it the most, the Code Bs and very low Code S players, and it also creates competition that they can do well in.
Part of the problem if you create a Korea-only challenger is that I'm not sure if there will be enough response to fill a 32 person tournament + qualifiers. Additionally, people can learn from other playstyles, and as we saw in Blizzcon, in part because players were not as familiar with the European playstyle, they were stomped much more easily. In almost every WCS, we've seen Zerg players stand up to and almost beat Serral, and yet when it comes to Blizzcon or GSL vs The World, Korean Zerg players crumble against Serral.
|
On November 10 2018 08:42 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2018 07:29 fronkschnonk wrote:The recent success of the foreign scene in the sense of vitality is the result of region lock we hoped for (I say this as someone who was highly against it back then). I think it's the best evidence for the assumption that giving opportunities to new players will result in the rise of some talents to the top in the long run.
Considering this, it should be possible to foster new Korean talents by giving opportunities to Korean rookies. Region lock was the best way for the foreign scene but that's not the only possibility. That's why still think that some kind of challenger/codeA-format would be tremendously helpful. I think region lock worked because there was already a substantial foreign playerbase. While there is up and coming talent in Korea, there's a far smaller pool to draw from. With that in mind, I think a non-region locked challenger league of sorts would be very helpful. It helps out the people who need it the most, the Code Bs and very low Code S players, and it also creates competition that they can do well in. Part of the problem if you create a Korea-only challenger is that I'm not sure if there will be enough response to fill a 32 person tournament + qualifiers. Additionally, people can learn from other playstyles, and as we saw in Blizzcon, in part because players were not as familiar with the European playstyle, they were stomped much more easily. In almost every WCS, we've seen Zerg players stand up to and almost beat Serral, and yet when it comes to Blizzcon or GSL vs The World, Korean Zerg players crumble against Serral.
I would be positive about a global challenger format, so I agree to some extend. It would even be possible to give some Code S spots to the best Koreans in the global challenger, so they would have an additional motivation to participate.
On the other hand I really don't think that it would be a problem to fill a Korean Code A. In my suggested format you wouldn't need additional 32 players because 12 players would advance to code S. So a Code A with 24 players would only offer 12 additional spots to the total amount of GSL players.
But I have to admit that the idea of a global challenger would have the charme of fostering Korean talents while still let foreigners qualify for GSL in a regular way.
|
How to get more new blood? Well first, make the game a fun and enjoyeable game to play on all levels to increase its popularity. Because at the moment both the game and the RTS Genre is unpopular.
|
You need to get young (<18 yo) people to play game. People mostly play same games as their friends. Even after getting those new players it will take 3 years to become pro level.
Increasing money paid doesn't magically bring new players. People play games because they enjoy them. People don't pick new game to earn money from playing it. At some point you might realize that you might be good enough to earn some money and start committing to the game.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On November 11 2018 01:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
You need to get young (<18 yo) people to play game. People mostly play same games as their friends. Even after getting those new players it will take 3 years to become pro level.
Increasing money paid doesn't magically bring new players. People play games because they enjoy them. People don't pick new game to earn money from playing it. At some point you might realize that you might be good enough to earn some money and start committing to the game.
it's not about bringing totally new players, but giving the incentive the current almostGMs to train more for the monies. And they cannot even dream about getting the monies if they have to face all the pros in Code S. We can't ban the Koreans but thankfully we saw the light all around the Korea and we can ban the foreignesr
Edit> or do something else, the point is that we dont'want to bring totally new players. We don't have the luxury of time to do that.
|
On November 11 2018 06:16 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2018 01:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
You need to get young (<18 yo) people to play game. People mostly play same games as their friends. Even after getting those new players it will take 3 years to become pro level.
Increasing money paid doesn't magically bring new players. People play games because they enjoy them. People don't pick new game to earn money from playing it. At some point you might realize that you might be good enough to earn some money and start committing to the game. it's not about bringing totally new players, but giving the incentive the current almostGMs to train more for the monies. And they cannot even dream about getting the monies if they have to face all the pros in Code S. We can't ban the Koreans but thankfully we saw the light all around the Korea and we can ban the foreignesr Edit> or do something else, the point is that we dont'want to bring totally new players. We don't have the luxury of time to do that.
That will be just temporally help. How old are they? When will they go to military?
|
I look back on the evolution of the game, players and eSports in general, since 1997 and I'm pleased with all I see, but then again, I grew up at the start of this phenomena. I agree with those who point out that in recent years the emphasis on competitive eSports and professional gaming has taken something away from the experience as a whole for non-professionals which discourages new talent from entering the sport. The social aspect of gaming has become less inclusive, sometimes even predatory, as it is too easy for someone to anonymously masquerade as something they're not and simply pick off noobs for the sake of spanking a less skilled player. I'm not saying that this is a fault of SC or the evolution of eSports, but it is a frequent complaint I've heard from my children, nephews and now grandchildren.
When finding new talent requires substantial funding, support from family, friends, sponsors, all of this raises barriers for entry into that sport. When the environment in which they are exposed to the sport is an open arena where noobs can be canned and spammed by more experienced players simply looking for easy pickings, then we further discourage new talent from ever getting started.
We should follow a plan not unlike what has been put in place for little league ball players, one that protects noobs, matches them online with players of relative equal skill, prevents them from wandering into areas online where they are taken advantage of, provide coaching, guidance and generally steers them in the right direction. Having online sponsorship for noobs with these goals in mind is a step in the right direction and much of what has already been put in place helps in reaching those goals, but I believe we need to do more. All of this may be way beyond our current reach, but it should not stop us from taking steps in that direction. Eventually, it would have a payoff in growing the sport. Once you've captured the imagination of a child for such a thing, their parents will support it with both time and money.
|
On November 11 2018 06:20 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2018 06:16 deacon.frost wrote:On November 11 2018 01:46 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
You need to get young (<18 yo) people to play game. People mostly play same games as their friends. Even after getting those new players it will take 3 years to become pro level.
Increasing money paid doesn't magically bring new players. People play games because they enjoy them. People don't pick new game to earn money from playing it. At some point you might realize that you might be good enough to earn some money and start committing to the game. it's not about bringing totally new players, but giving the incentive the current almostGMs to train more for the monies. And they cannot even dream about getting the monies if they have to face all the pros in Code S. We can't ban the Koreans but thankfully we saw the light all around the Korea and we can ban the foreignesr Edit> or do something else, the point is that we dont'want to bring totally new players. We don't have the luxury of time to do that. That will be just temporally help. How old are they? When will they go to military?
It's not that we just have a few talented players now and will never have any again. Like I said, new players on the edge to GM have always been around in South Korea. domickc, for example, appeared in March 2018 on aligulac and already managed to take maps of fulltime pros - including a 2-1 win against Reynor in may. I assume players like him to be quite young, considering he's never seen before in a competitive environment. As long as SC2 has some popularity - not much, but enough to be casted professionaly and to regularly interest viewers to watch matches offline in the studio - it will have a decent playerbase and some new players will find their way into the game, too. But in order to keep such a popularity alive, it's necessary that some new talents rise to the top in order to keep the top competition on a high level.
But those new talents - who are there and always will be to some extend in the future - need opportunities to compete, incentives to venture the way of programing. Like you said, it takes years to rise to the top. This is why newcomers need something to rely on - motivational and financial - in order to endure this time of playing catch-up with the established pros.
|
i love how people argue over which one factor is solely responsible for the health of the scene as if that makes any sense. what is it about this particular issue that makes people think literally a single focus or alteration would definitely "save the game" and blizzard is too stupid to implement it? everyone says the problem is one specific thing, but everyone says it's a DIFFERENT specific thing
what is so hard to understand about "video games have limited life cycles and SC2 is already a colossal success"? is it related to how people tie their egos into starcraft skill? this isn't studying astrophysics or driving an ambulance, it's a computer game. nobody has necessarily done anything wrongheaded or unjust simply because a video game ceases selling units or running as many tournaments
jesus
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
