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On September 26 2018 11:02 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 09:31 BigRedDog wrote:
Two things i am always curious....
1. Fungal growth splash should be revert back to before they nerf it long time ago. The rationale for reducing FG splash was bc it was too good to trap units. But now FG simply slow units down....they should tone it back up.
2. Remove light unit type from Hydra. Not sure why they allow hellion (a tier one unit that cost no gas) rip up hydra (tier two unit with gas) with ease, especially after blue flamed is upgraded. Hydras are already units that ain't super powerful. They can't move fast (can't retreat with ease) and not as strong as marines. Simply removing light unit status won't buff hydra but will make it more useful unit verses mech. umm hydras are super powerful and they kill hellions so fast that it dosent matter that they are light units, and what are you talking about they are stronger than marines
While BigRedDog is completely wrong about hydras being weak, let's be realistic and not use extreme hyperbole. Marines are definitely tied for strongest unit in the game alongside carriers. Marines scale incredibly well with upgrades, they both move and attack incredibly fast, they are cheap, efficient, quick to build, and easily massable at any point in the game. Marines also combine fluidly with every terran unit composition except dedicated Thor/Raven mech compositions. Also mass groups of marines beat basically any unit composition except High Templars or sieged Tanks. The game has developed enough so that basic marine splits are relatively easy and target firing banelings is not a huge problem. Hell MKP target fired banelings in 2011.
This isn't to say anything about balance or "marines are too strong" or anything like that, I just want us to operate in an objective reality
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I guess in blizzard time September 25th is April 1st. Where the unbalance team attempts to kill sc2 viewership. No offense to the new guys at blizzard but maybe you should look at the tournament results and talk to pros. There are some real issues with the game atm but none of these changes really addresses anything and some of them make it much worse.
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On September 26 2018 06:13 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 06:09 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
"In the Zerg vs. Zerg matchup, we see a lot of Tunneling Claws Roaches used to harass mineral lines. While we enjoy both the harass and comeback potential that this ability affords Zerg players, we’ve received a lot of feedback from Zerg players that it might be too good in this role. Because of the high health regeneration with the Tunneling Claws upgrade, it can take over twice the number of defensive Roaches to dislodge harassing Roaches."
A lot? Once every few dozen games is a lot? Who are the whiny players who refuse to build static defense in the mid-late game and don't want to change their playstyle?
at pro level tunneling claws is insanely effective in the mid-lategame, and there are a lot of scenarios where they cause huge shifts in momentum and map control for very little risk. defending burrow roaches is not a matter of simply building a bunch of static D, it's an incredibly APM intensive and stressful defense. burrow roaches are in a stupid spot anyway. T and P have detection so consistently that it really is a goofball cheese in other matchups and an annoying, powerful gimmick in zvz
Honestly this just feels like a direct nerf to Serral as he is the best player by far to use this strat, you can't really argue that zerg doesn't have enough detection or even less than the other two races.
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On September 26 2018 05:11 yht9657 wrote:
Thanks Blizzard for the void ray speed buff (or more like reduced nerf) but still nobody higher than gold is gonna use them because they suck.
In just about every team game of 3v3 or 4v4 with a toss, in all leagues, someone rushes voids and comes in from the side and beams down your base and there's almost nothing you can do about it unless you went straight to a build to counter 6 voids and have great scouting. They are used in every team game, usually then transitioning into CARRY-ERs and 1a'ing across the map in the air. Makes for real fun times.
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On September 26 2018 09:31 BigRedDog wrote:
Two things i am always curious....
2. Remove light unit type from Hydra. Not sure why they allow hellion (a tier one unit that cost no gas) rip up hydra (tier two unit with gas) with ease, especially after blue flamed is upgraded. Hydras are already units that ain't super powerful. They can't move fast (can't retreat with ease) and not as strong as marines. Simply removing light unit status won't buff hydra but will make it more useful unit verses mech. Protoss would quite literally never win if this happened since before storm or colossus, protoss' only reliable chance of beating hydra-based attacks is adepts with glades and sentry support. It's already common to see zerg players on ladder quite literally do mass hydra as a strategy if they know protoss has delayed storm or as a follow-up to a successful earlier attack in the game if they put protoss behind on getting splash damage. The hydra is the last unit in the game to need anything resembling a buff at this point.
On another topic, I think something still needs to be done about proxy cyclone with some pulled SCVs on auto-repair. It feels the same as hatchery tech drops in that you can't really know it is coming because until it's hitting unless you get lucky with scouting as protoss (which won't happen if the terran does a good job with their reaper since it will kill scout probes and force gateway units to stay in the main to defend the probes from harass). Most people doing it also do an early second depot to block scouting so protoss can't know for sure if there's one gas taken or two (which is why it is so strong. This can easily be faked into a command center or other build but still look like cyclones). Observers won't scout the terran base in time and hallucinations can't be cast before the attack hits.
The only way to beat it is to be prepared in advance, and if terran fakes it they're automatically ahead since protoss has to delay tech and rush out units. It's also much harder to beat as protoss in the actual fighting than to do as terran since the SCVs will repair on their own and protoss has to target a bunch of workers before they can even hope to do damage against the cyclones.
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Honestly I'm not a fan of the battery change. I get proxy battery is hard to play vs, I have had many frustrating games with it myself but I dont think it is all that op. There are several strats in this game that are equaly cheesy and hard to play against. some examples: proxy hatchery rushes, proxy barracks rushes, proxy imortal rushes, proxy cylone rushes, tvt proxy reaper rushes. The list goes on. I don't think that this strategy is strong enough to merrit a nerf to a now pivitol part of protos's early game. nerfing this will make Terran allins in tvp even stronger something we really don't need, ( and I say this as a primarily Terran player) It also makes the already difficult for toss early stages of pvz even more unstable and makes holds to various rushes to hard. The problem with toss is that they are to good late game and to week early game, (provided they are not doing some crazy allin of there own) protoss needs more stability in the early game not less and they need there late game power toned down a bit more in return than where this patch is headed. I'm not a fan of the way the balance is headed with toss. They are still extremely strong late but very vulnerable early on. I would hope that we could get to a place like tvz, where a one race strong early one race strong late dynamic is still very clear but feels less problematic because terran can still win late game a reasonable amount of the time, and its not to bad for zerg to hold of Terran aggression provided they make some cuts to there build that slow down the late game steam roller. tvz just feels alot less extreme than pv x matchups right now where protoss is extremely vulnerable early game but extremely powerful late game.
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Don't forget that the balance mod they are updating is this one.
There are buffs to protoss robo. There are changes to terran.
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The creep and the roach burrow changes kinda seem like targeting Serral. I mean creeptumor nerf (while completely and utterly unnecessary) is bad for every zerg, but it hurts those who have really good multitasking skills.
And the spectacular roach-burrow comebacks the Blizz devs talk about are mostly Serral comebacks as far as the games I ve seen.
Also, some replies here are so detached from reality they arent event worth answering. I started out writing some rebuttals but kinda gave up, there s no way to change the mind of some people.
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Well they nerf the one and only opening on pvz and give back nothing... isn't that coooooool? Not to mention the overused proxy on any terran game is till there.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Must admit I quite like these changes. They seem well thought through. Still a bit disappointed with Protoss changes overall. I'd like to see more of... just stuff.
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I like some of the design changes but still don't understand why protoss is getting consistent nerfs when they are already doing poorly in every region.
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after armor reduce, cyclones should be able to shoot while moving or some other dmg change, obviously they will have to look at this issue again but why wait another 6-12 month.
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TL:DR: Protoss removed from game
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Why don't they add a "close to nexus" requirement to shield battery (similar to fast warping pylon mechanics). Bam! Offensive abuse problem solved. The way they are trying to fix it is a bandaid that lowers SB's defense capabilities. Cyclones are already smashing them on the attack. Now they gonna abuse this even more.
Leave nydus as it right now just remove invincibility and add armour (or remove it from the game). For what reason does zerg need 2 overlapping mechanics to transfer units? Why? Why do you keep forcing this shit? They just abuse it for allining. That's clear as daylight. You did an awesome thange to Overlords in LotV. Now nydus is just an atrocity.
Regarding mines. Well... I hoped that after those Maru games they would consider nerfing mines, but instead we got this. I mean, yeah, the proposing change won't change much and i'm fine if it goes through. But what i would really like to see is changing mines mechanics completely. Mines are oblitirating protoss mineral lines since 2014 and i believe it's not how it supposed to be. Risk / reward ratio is really favouring terran here. Boost in, drop mines, booom! boost out. Almost zero risks taken, but could be a game ending move for a protoss. We witness that in pro matches every fcking time. Why? Why do terrans have such insane harrass options? No other race can do that. They already have hellions for that. Same goes for baneling blows. It could be fun for viewrs, yes. But i don't really see how a 20 baneling kill could be legit, from both design and balance perspective. So i would really consider adding a kill limit for single mine detonation. Like 5 or something, that could be increased with upgraid to 8 or 10. Make them invisible w/o upgraid i don't care then. Or reduce splash radius. Or make them not target workers (similar to bw mines).
tldr: mines may be fine as they are in the lategame, but as a spammable tier1(1.5) unit it is heavily abused on early stages. That should be adressed.
p.s. And also add a gate requirement for forge.
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Good stuff, I am sure Protoss will get a buff before it goes live and if Terran proxies don't stop it will be addressed. But this is a good patch for now.
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I feel so cool when reading this update. Michael Scipione, dat dude, he is alright, my man. Sounds promising.
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I dont think hydra dps is gonna do anything great. and reverting the health will not make siege tanks viable against them...
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So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense.
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On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense.
Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense.
I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks.
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I like all of these changes on paper.
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EPT
