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On September 26 2018 06:18 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 06:10 Yonnua wrote:On September 26 2018 06:02 MrWayne wrote:On September 26 2018 05:24 Yonnua wrote:
Well, that's a ridiculous and disappointing set of suggestions.
Protoss is currently lagging statistically behind by more than 10%, and behind zerg by more than 20%. Protoss has won only one Premier tournament all year, and PvZ specifically hasn't statistically fallen in favour of protoss since July 2016.
Meanwhile, Blizzard's priority is more nerfs to protoss, and specifically nerfs to make the game less fun and more difficult to play. The nerf to shield batteries for the sake of avoiding a niche and rare strategy comes at the cost of being able to defend against early aggression anywhere near as easily. The cavalier throwaway lines "this will reduce the number of Corrosive Biles it takes to destroy them from 7 to 5" but it "weaken[s] offensive usage while mostly maintaining their defensive power" shows how shortsighted and poorly thought out these changes are.
There is just no justification for this current line of changes; they can't be called balance changes because they will make the game less balanced. I guess you're referring to those aligulac leading/lagging numbers. I always found those numbers odd. Currently aligulac says Zerg is leading with 8% and Protoss is lagging with 14% but how are those numbers calculated? Aligulac also gives precise numbers for every matchup and those are PvT: 52,40%; PvZ: 45.83%; TvZ: 45.23% So if anything, wouldn't be Terran the lagging race? The leading / lagging numbers are not mentioned in aligulacs monthly balance report either, we shouldn't therefore take those numbers to seriously. The lagging/leading numbers are based on how the top players are performing relative to one another, and so are more indicative of the highest level of play than the overall balance numbers, which are heavily skewed by the large number of small online cups. ( For example, this online cup where terran went 0-8 versus two well known pro players is probably not the best indication of balance, but is nearly 1% of the latest TvP balance stats) Even on those skewed numbers, they show Protoss significantly behind in the match-up where they're being targeted for nerfs. It's important to understand stats and where they are coming from, but knowing the information behind them actually paints a picture far more damning of the current situation. The facts are simple: there is no data justification for these nerfs, they're just here to justify some internal narrative of those with the loudest voices, which have always been Terran and Zerg players. Non of these are balance changes, they are obviously made to adress overused/underused strategies and aspects of the game. - Underused: Muta play (thor nerf), BCs, infestors, nydus, earlygame sentrys - Overused: Queens for defence, proxy cyclones, proxies with shield batteries, mass air (overused as in they want to see them a bit least) Besides the biggest whiners are obviously protoss players and their martyr complex, nobody is out to get them, you are just as any other player for Blizzard.
I think you're right but they should not call it "Balance" Mod Update if it wasn't a Balance Mod Update.
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THIS IS AMAZING!!!! I love you Blizz, so many positive changes, I really hope they stick with this. Blizzcon can't come soon enough.
Sad to see the battery become less tanky, I also know how annoying it can be to play against them, but the zerg changes, oh man, they might not swing the balance a whole lot, but it gives me more options to mess around, be bit more comfortable with hydras under storm/tank fire and less clunky infestors, oh hell. Also really looking forward to nydus and tunneling being less of a commitment in early game.
Darn, I'm so happy with these changes.
On September 26 2018 04:36 Nakajin wrote:
What does "unit radius" mean? They say they will reduce infestor unit radus
You can get a really good for how clunky burrowed infestor is if you make like 16, pair them with other units and then try to properly position them, it's a mess. The fact that units can walk over them now, they take up less space and you get one extra range for infested terrans makes them so much nicer to play with.
On September 26 2018 06:00 brickrd wrote:
my immediate reaction to heal-over-time transfuse is that i'm going to start the baneling transfuse meta in early game ZvZ to keep them alive forever when my opponent tries the 1-2 ling snipe on them
That would be quite difficult to do, since you have to damage them first it order to allow them to be transfused. Although, it might be cool enough that the impracticality might go out the window. Recently, I'm making early fast dropperlord for my creep queen and spreading creep from 2/3 of a way to my opponent. It is not all that practical, but the coolness of it and the surprise of my opponents is well worth it :D .
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So was there Korean input?
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On September 26 2018 05:21 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 05:13 washikie wrote:
I wonder if infestors will be a new option vs Terran in midgame now that if you fungle a marine drop they cant get back into the medivac. Might allow you to go infestor zergling baneling instead of hydra zergling baneling. Interesting change, I wonder what it will do to players like Maru when they go 2-1-1. Think itll still probably be pretty difficult to have infestor ling bane out when 2 1 1 hits? Also for the cost of them not sure it would be worth it.
I'm more referring to the follow up period after 2-1-1 hits right now Terran generally stay out on the map even when hydras are out using squads of marine medivac to keep back creep if they opened 2-1-1 if you go hydras you can drive these back but really good Terran won't lose the units even when you do, you have to comit to at leas mutas if you really want to permanently clear the drops, or you have to distract Terran and take them out while t is preoccupied. Infestors though could deny the escape before Terran gets any kind of notification which could be fairly usefull.
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On September 26 2018 06:10 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 06:02 MrWayne wrote:On September 26 2018 05:24 Yonnua wrote:
Well, that's a ridiculous and disappointing set of suggestions.
Protoss is currently lagging statistically behind by more than 10%, and behind zerg by more than 20%. Protoss has won only one Premier tournament all year, and PvZ specifically hasn't statistically fallen in favour of protoss since July 2016.
Meanwhile, Blizzard's priority is more nerfs to protoss, and specifically nerfs to make the game less fun and more difficult to play. The nerf to shield batteries for the sake of avoiding a niche and rare strategy comes at the cost of being able to defend against early aggression anywhere near as easily. The cavalier throwaway lines "this will reduce the number of Corrosive Biles it takes to destroy them from 7 to 5" but it "weaken[s] offensive usage while mostly maintaining their defensive power" shows how shortsighted and poorly thought out these changes are.
There is just no justification for this current line of changes; they can't be called balance changes because they will make the game less balanced. I guess you're referring to those aligulac leading/lagging numbers. I always found those numbers odd. Currently aligulac says Zerg is leading with 8% and Protoss is lagging with 14% but how are those numbers calculated? Aligulac also gives precise numbers for every matchup and those are PvT: 52,40%; PvZ: 45.83%; TvZ: 45.23% So if anything, wouldn't be Terran the lagging race? The leading / lagging numbers are not mentioned in aligulacs monthly balance report either, we shouldn't therefore take those numbers to seriously. The lagging/leading numbers are based on how the top players are performing relative to one another, and so are more indicative of the highest level of play than the overall balance numbers, which are heavily skewed by the large number of small online cups. ( For example, this online cup where terran went 0-8 versus two well known pro players is probably not the best indication of balance, but is nearly 1% of the latest TvP balance stats) Even on those skewed numbers, they show Protoss significantly behind in the match-up where they're being targeted for nerfs. It's important to understand stats and where they are coming from, but knowing the information behind them actually paints a picture far more damning of the current situation. The facts are simple: there is no data justification for these nerfs, they're just here to justify some internal narrative of those with the loudest voices, which have always been Terran and Zerg players.
That's not an explanation on how those numbers are calculated, we don't know how they compared the top players to one another plus narrowing the sample size brings the negative effect that players with outstanding individual skill(like maru, serral) influence the numbers even more.
Besides, this update is not necessarily a straight up nerf for protoss in PvZ. They nerf the shield battery/ ravager interaktion and the warp prism, which will not make double Archon prism unavailable, but they also going to nerf the Queen and creep spread which is huge.
I really like most of the changes on the test server and i like this update.The only thing they should think about again is the carrier change, that is a bit too much.
And I'm concerned that protoss ground compositions with tempest support become to agile in TvP.
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a lot of zerg changes, no terran changes, 2 protoss changes that are also about zerg.
small wonder, it's been a tough year for zerg, and clearly the devs understand this too.
and don't you go and push serral on a pedestal!
while no one can deny is insane achievements this year,it only shows his dominance as an individual,
while zerg players as a whole were not very successful lately, to say the least.
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I like the changes, they are very good but they are totally lacking in giving stuff to P.
I hope that if they look towards that, they look at buffing stalkers and maybe adepts. 15 damage stalkers could help, changing their upgraded damage from +1+1vs armored to +2, perhaps buff a few movement speeds, make protoss gateway units be capable of defending on their own. Perhaps even changing WP from 200 minerals to 175.
As for protoss all ins being buffed with that I think most changes already prevent that, old marauders and faster to build minerals already help terran and zerg never really had a hard time against gateway units with the only possible exception being adept all ins, wich aren't that prevalent anyway.
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I like most of these Zerg changes. The Queen should be nerfed even more though, it is stupid to see 6-10 queens every game. They are uninteresting defensive units.
Now Protoss is nerfed in early (shield battery), mid (warp prism) and late (high Templar and carrier) game. After not winning almost anything in 2018, the race plainly faces extinction in 2019. I do not think that the viewership of WCS will keep increasing if all RO4 games are ZvZ ... again and again. Same with TvT in GSL, unless Serral moves there.
It is not understandable that the offensive use of transfuse and shield batteries is nerfed, but nothing is said about offensive repair. Which is the only real issue now with terrans proxying every game.
What about Terran late game in TvP? Did Blizzard just give up?
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I find it really frustrating that they are nerfing Transfusion and Creep Tumors before addressing Queen range.
That is the single most obnoxious thing about them being a "catch all" unit, I'll take what I can get but seriously no mention at all of their AA range eh? Even after Nerfing Liberators and now Warp Prisms why do they still need to keep that obnoxious 9 range?
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On September 26 2018 07:28 batatm wrote:
a lot of zerg changes, no terran changes, 2 protoss changes that are also about zerg.
small wonder, it's been a tough year for zerg, and clearly the devs understand this too.
and don't you go and push serral on a pedestal!
while no one can deny is insane achievements this year,it only shows his dominance as an individual,
while zerg players as a whole were not very successful lately, to say the least.
I think Zerg was pretty successful this year even if we took out Serral. WCS in the foreign scene is filled with zerg players (serral won his last WCS circuit playing only zvz). Zerg has been represented well in most of the premier tournaments this year. Which tournament are you referring to that did not have good zerg representation?
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Even as a Protoss player, I think these changes are really good. I expect Protoss to be pretty shitty when the patch arrives (kinda like Terran post 4.0), but I like the direction the game is heading.
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I really really like the Queen change. That opens up so much strategically.
The only thing I would like to see is more abilities that do damage, or have effects also affecting allied units.
Like Fungal and Time Warp.
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We received feedback from players of all races at Montreal that they’d rather see an attack speed nerf to Hydralisks as opposed to a health nerf.
Nerve on these guys... This turned out exactly how we knew it would:
1. We admit, +10hp on hydras was a bit excessive
2. WTF BLIZZARD HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO MAINTAIN 65% ZVP RECORD NOW, HUH?!
3. here, -5% attack speed that means absolutely nothing
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I glad the neosteel changes stayed.
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Two things i am always curious....
1. Fungal growth splash should be revert back to before they nerf it long time ago. The rationale for reducing FG splash was bc it was too good to trap units. But now FG simply slow units down....they should tone it back up.
2. Remove light unit type from Hydra. Not sure why they allow hellion (a tier one unit that cost no gas) rip up hydra (tier two unit with gas) with ease, especially after blue flamed is upgraded. Hydras are already units that ain't super powerful. They can't move fast (can't retreat with ease) and not as strong as marines. Simply removing light unit status won't buff hydra but will make it more useful unit verses mech.
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Looks like Protoss is the race that's getting royally shafted by this year's balance patch.
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On September 26 2018 09:31 BigRedDog wrote:
Two things i am always curious....
1. Fungal growth splash should be revert back to before they nerf it long time ago. The rationale for reducing FG splash was bc it was too good to trap units. But now FG simply slow units down....they should tone it back up.
2. Remove light unit type from Hydra. Not sure why they allow hellion (a tier one unit that cost no gas) rip up hydra (tier two unit with gas) with ease, especially after blue flamed is upgraded. Hydras are already units that ain't super powerful. They can't move fast (can't retreat with ease) and not as strong as marines. Simply removing light unit status won't buff hydra but will make it more useful unit verses mech.
umm hydras are super powerful and they kill hellions so fast that it dosent matter that they are light units, and what are you talking about they are stronger than marines
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So they had 1.5 + yr, then they had the last week+ after they announced new potential changes...
And still zero word of them addressing swarmhosts.
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EPT
