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I like the changes, but I think the real problem at this point are with the power units.
TvP is stable more or less, maybe a bit terran favored, but the unit which ruins the game is the Disruptor. I don`t like that unit at all, toss already has AOE with Collo and Storm, I don`t see why they need 3rd AOE. (archon I would not even put it as AOE). I would maybe buff the voyrray and rething the disruptor.
TvT is in ok state, lot of openings, raven disable mechanism changed allot the game.
TvZ bane/ling/Corruptor too strong. Ultralisk too strong in late game... doesn`t really have a strong counter, marauder tanks, but that are countered by lings.
I agree T has a lot of worker harassment abilities, and that sucks for zerg and terran, but at this point is hard to rework the medivac, also would take the fun of playing terran out of the game. At high level I don`t see problem with Terran hellion/mine drop at worker lines, but it affects quite much everything under master. It is really easy for T to make damage in the worker line, but that is basically because of bad defense, not balance issue imho.
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Thank god I am not playing anymore. Protoss gets nerf after nerf. PvZ is going to be a lot of fun without an opening strategy or a viable all in. Protoss will just stay on their side of the map defending all game untill they just lose, while the zerg just drones up and throws punches nonstop
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RIP nothing for TvP mech 
I am not expecting anything but it is very disappointing to me that the final expansion of SC2 failed to make mech TvP work even if to a weak viability. I love the game but it makes me sad that it will probably never be viable and that it seems even worse than in HotS. I was happy with how it was in HotS, even if most people didn't consider it viable. It was at least decent solid and worked on almost maps, styles, strategies, even if it wasn't as "good" as bio. I honestly can't think of anything to adjust that would give mech tvp some help without fucking with the balance of other things, so I can't fault them if they gave up though...
Mech TvP did get lots of buffs, like stronger tanks, cyclones, BCs that teleport, etc., but many changes have made it harder too. Immortals no longer having old hardened shields is great for the game in general, but bad for mech. Now you don't need ghosts, but going ghostless was pointless anyway unless if it was early game where it was too expensive to add them, and ghosts (which had their gas cost reverted after all these years) are useful in general anyway vs Protoss. I like the design of the new Immortals, just that as a mech player it was better the old way so I could just EMP them and burst them down immediately, etc. Adept pushes are really hard to deal with in my experience and you can only hold them off with a specific type of build, and on some maps it just seems unrealistic to defend it without being really behind. Protoss has so many more ways to interact and harass terran that everything feels a lot harder as a mech player. And sky toss just feels so strong now due to the carrier buffs
If I missed any new developments/ideas/strats, feel free to share them. I got back into playing a few months ago but took a break again. My TvP winrate was like 20% or something ungodly whereas in HotS it was actually 50% give or take a few.
I think the changes they are proposing all sound good overall though. I have been pretty happy with the direction of all the patches throughout SC2, but especially in recent years.
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On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense.
I detect some decent american highschool education in your post.
Thats not how attackspeed works my friend.
Mathematics
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Hi.
Nerf Orbital Command. Why? because:
- lost many SCV, np Calldown MULE
- lost suplydepot, np Calldown Extra Supplies
- DT atack, np Scanner Sweep
Have everythin ~1:30.
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On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks.
Basically they nerfed the firing rate by 0.03.
0.54 (original firing rate) divided by nerf to firing rate 0.03 = 18
0.54 * 18 = 9.72 seconds
0.57 * 18 = 10.26 seconds
Every 18 shots, the new hydralisk will shoot 1 shot less than before the patch. This is a dps nerf of 1.17 damage per second. It's not that they shoot less, but it's that it's a fairly high number of shots before a hydralisk actually fires slow enough to lose a shot.
In other words, it's such a small nerf that it's unlikely to make any tangible difference in a game.
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On September 26 2018 19:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:RIP nothing for TvP mech I am not expecting anything but it is very disappointing to me that the final expansion of SC2 failed to make mech TvP work even if to a weak viability. I love the game but it makes me sad that it will probably never be viable and that it seems even worse than in HotS. I was happy with how it was in HotS, even if most people didn't consider it viable. It was at least decent solid and worked on almost maps, styles, strategies, even if it wasn't as "good" as bio. I honestly can't think of anything to adjust that would give mech tvp some help without fucking with the balance of other things, so I can't fault them if they gave up though... Mech TvP did get lots of buffs, like stronger tanks, cyclones, BCs that teleport, etc., but many changes have made it harder too. Immortals no longer having old hardened shields is great for the game in general, but bad for mech. Now you don't need ghosts, but going ghostless was pointless anyway unless if it was early game where it was too expensive to add them, and ghosts (which had their gas cost reverted after all these years) are useful in general anyway vs Protoss. I like the design of the new Immortals, just that as a mech player it was better the old way so I could just EMP them and burst them down immediately, etc. Adept pushes are really hard to deal with in my experience and you can only hold them off with a specific type of build, and on some maps it just seems unrealistic to defend it without being really behind. Protoss has so many more ways to interact and harass terran that everything feels a lot harder as a mech player. And sky toss just feels so strong now due to the carrier buffs If I missed any new developments/ideas/strats, feel free to share them. I got back into playing a few months ago but took a break again. My TvP winrate was like 20% or something ungodly whereas in HotS it was actually 50% give or take a few. I think the changes they are proposing all sound good overall though. I have been pretty happy with the direction of all the patches throughout SC2, but especially in recent years.
Tank/Hellbat works decently when you get the tank the tank count up.
The problem has always been air. Carriers are completly OP vs mech pre-patch but I think they are more balanced post patch. Both Thors and Vikings should do better now vs Protoss air, at least until they get mass air + HT.
BCs will still be useless of course since the new Tempest will hardcounter them even harder than before.
Still ground mech with viking support will work better post patch compared to pre patch.
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On September 26 2018 19:35 LuuP wrote:
Hi.
Nerf Orbital Command. Why? because:
- lost many SCV, np Calldown MULE
- lost suplydepot, np Calldown Extra Supplies
- DT atack, np Scanner Sweep
Have everythin ~1:30.
so you run a lone DT into a mineralline even if you dont spot a fresh mule? thats to opposite of smart. And complain about extra supplies? Really? And with chronoboost and injections mules are needed for balance
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Just make Starcraft 3. SC2 right now is beyond redemption. These changes are great but not good enough and also they are too late. SC2 own problems are still there. Mech vs toss, deathball, 3 second- ending-game-battle...
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Lol @ the "nerf" to Hydras.
As a Terran - it's kinda sad seeing how this year's balance patch will royally screw Protoss in pretty similar fashion to how last year's balance patch screwed over Terran.
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On September 26 2018 20:11 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 19:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:RIP nothing for TvP mech I am not expecting anything but it is very disappointing to me that the final expansion of SC2 failed to make mech TvP work even if to a weak viability. I love the game but it makes me sad that it will probably never be viable and that it seems even worse than in HotS. I was happy with how it was in HotS, even if most people didn't consider it viable. It was at least decent solid and worked on almost maps, styles, strategies, even if it wasn't as "good" as bio. I honestly can't think of anything to adjust that would give mech tvp some help without fucking with the balance of other things, so I can't fault them if they gave up though... Mech TvP did get lots of buffs, like stronger tanks, cyclones, BCs that teleport, etc., but many changes have made it harder too. Immortals no longer having old hardened shields is great for the game in general, but bad for mech. Now you don't need ghosts, but going ghostless was pointless anyway unless if it was early game where it was too expensive to add them, and ghosts (which had their gas cost reverted after all these years) are useful in general anyway vs Protoss. I like the design of the new Immortals, just that as a mech player it was better the old way so I could just EMP them and burst them down immediately, etc. Adept pushes are really hard to deal with in my experience and you can only hold them off with a specific type of build, and on some maps it just seems unrealistic to defend it without being really behind. Protoss has so many more ways to interact and harass terran that everything feels a lot harder as a mech player. And sky toss just feels so strong now due to the carrier buffs If I missed any new developments/ideas/strats, feel free to share them. I got back into playing a few months ago but took a break again. My TvP winrate was like 20% or something ungodly whereas in HotS it was actually 50% give or take a few. I think the changes they are proposing all sound good overall though. I have been pretty happy with the direction of all the patches throughout SC2, but especially in recent years. Tank/Hellbat works decently when you get the tank the tank count up. The problem has always been air. Carriers are completly OP vs mech pre-patch but I think they are more balanced post patch. Both Thors and Vikings should do better now vs Protoss air, at least until they get mass air + HT. BCs will still be useless of course since the new Tempest will hardcounter them even harder than before. Still ground mech with viking support will work better post patch compared to pre patch.
My biggest problem with mech right is early-mid, and mid-late, pretty much the transition between periods.
While you can do good damage with silly factory/starport based shenanigans theres a period before mid where you don't have enough tank/hellbat to defend agression, specially multi agression, if you are trying to take a 3rd base fast (wich you need least the toss over run you), a WP, a few starport units and some blink stalkers can really wreak havoc because you don't have enough stuff and your stuff isn't very mobile.
And then the period between ground mech and sky terran, the protoss has the a much faster transitioning capability tanks to warp gate and chrono boost, and while a the toss can start chrono boosting 3 stargate carriers while warping zealots in your bases a terran has a much harder time transitioning to BCs. Wich is why it was so common to see mech getting destroyed by sky toss before fully transitioning to sky terran.
The solution to this would be to have a catch all unit that serves as a fast support unit with good but not great AA, kinda like the stalker for toss, wich used to be the cyclone until 4.0 hit.
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About Creep spread I think the problem isn't that it spreads faster now.
In HotS Creep spread wasn't that oppressive because terran could paradepush with Bio/mine which made it easy to deny Creep.
With the metagame-shift to Hydras terran isn't able to push anymore before having the critical mass of tanks which means the only option to clear Creep before the push is with medivac drops but that isn't really effective because a good Zerg will just immediately replace the tumors.
If the metagame shifts back to Ling Bane Muta the Creep spread nerf might not be necessary anymore.
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Finland931 Posts
On September 26 2018 16:00 showstealer1829 wrote:
TL:DR: Protoss removed from game
*deleted
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On September 26 2018 22:02 Lexender wrote:cyclone 4.0 hit.
this is the most painfully obvious solution to mech's unit synergy problems. bring back lock-on cyclones!!
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Hope they'll admit voidray is useless and boring and will remove/revamp it
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Creep nerf is a horrible idea and shows clear favoritism toward the foreign scene by the balance team. Clearing creep and maintaining pressure is just as much of a skill as spreading it, don't punish foreign zergs for being better than their opponents. Not to mention the Korean scene, where zerg has yet to win a gsl in lotv. In the Korean scene denying creep is one of the most common ways viewers can know that the zergs opponent is playing well that game, artosis even made a comment about it recently in a game saying 'this creep spread looks like 2016 creep spread' as a way of saying that the Terran was doing a great job pressuring and denying creep.
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Wow, considering my lastest diffulties in zvt, I am pretty happy of my pause haha.
Joke aside, I am bit concerned for pro zergs with the creep nerf, it seems a pretty hard one but let's see how it turns out.
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If somebody leaves the game before the countdown, you cannot press quit... only surrender and quit and rewind. I think that needs to be fixed.
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On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else.
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On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks.
What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change.
Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule.
To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players.
From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second.
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EPT
