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On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else.
It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works.
It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there.
Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides.
Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners.
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On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second.
What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule.
The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change.
On September 27 2018 04:27 TheZergishOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else. It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works. It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there. Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides. Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners.
Dude queens are zergs main source of production, without queens for injects zerg would stop functioning as a race. So no 600 minerals use on queens is not zerg putting money into defense and creep spread, it is zerg putting money into their necessary infrastructure. That needed infrastructre also happens to give the following for free; map control and strong defense. If you want to argue that the minerals is put to use in that way then show me the pro level build(that is not an allin) where the players does not build queens. Spoiler it doesn't exist because queens are bloody necessary by design.
The proof queens needs toning down is in the builds of the pros, how many pros builds extra queens past the necessary 1 per hatch? The answer is basically everyone, why? Because they are overpowered, if the weren't we would see a greater variation in builds. Why is this a problem? Because something being overpowered in itself means its a problem but also because seeing the same thing every damn game is boring, for players as well as spectators. Your opinion does not change the facts.
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On September 27 2018 04:27 TheZergishOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else. It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works. It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there. Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides. Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners. while i agree with you overall, i do think queens are in a pretty strong place. and with basic ling support they actually can surprisingly defend certain allins you wouldn't expect them to.
to me the issue is that the queen meta evolved from terran and protoss both relying on a lot of potent LOTV harassment that made it very difficult for zerg to do anything to control the pace of the game.
we have to understand that zerg is more singular in how it works than T or P because of larva. there's a vicious cycle with zerg and the meta which makes it most often the case that zerg tends to oscillate more rapidly between being strong and weak.
1. T and P almost always MUST limit zerg economic growth to succeed
2. this means T and P rely on harassment and/or timings that cut off zerg's third base saturation. currently i think this is more true for T, but still true for both races
3. as T and P become better and better at limiting zerg economy, the harassment becomes more potent, which necessitates an in-between option that allows zerg to have attacking units while also using larvae for drones. hence, in this case, queen buffs and mass queen builds
4. as zerg become better and better at using queens defensively and anticipating harass, T and P start struggling to achieve that damage, which gives the feeling of having to work harder to achieve damage than zerg does to defend - somewhat similar to the HotS TvP meta where heavy harass was necessary, possible, but very difficult against a prepared opponent
obviously all these things are debatable when it comes to the game being "fair and balanced," and obviously all races are capable of beating each other at all levels, but this is a general picture of one of the major problems with balancing zerg. i am open to redesigns that relegate queens back to support as long as there's a better solution being proposed for how zerg can play games out without being forced into simply cutting at the exact same number of drones every game and hoping to win every defensive fight until they gain enough advantage to instantly counterattack. people get bored with the meta when zerg does the same thing every game - with the exception of when a matchup is just widely considered mechanically beautiful on both sides like bio mine vs ling bane muta in HotS. but even that matchup had to be altered eventually.
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On September 27 2018 05:00 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 04:27 TheZergishOne wrote:On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else. It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works. It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there. Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides. Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners. while i agree with you overall, i do think queens are in a pretty strong place. and with basic ling support they actually can surprisingly defend certain allins you wouldn't expect them to. to me the issue is that the queen meta evolved from terran and protoss both relying on a lot of potent LOTV harassment that made it very difficult for zerg to do anything to control the pace of the game. we have to understand that zerg is more singular in how it works than T or P because of larva. there's a vicious cycle with zerg and the meta which makes it most often the case that zerg tends to oscillate more rapidly between being strong and weak. 1. T and P almost always MUST limit zerg economic growth to succeed 2. this means T and P rely on harassment and/or timings that cut off zerg's third base saturation. currently i think this is more true for T, but still true for both races 3. as T and P become better and better at limiting zerg economy, the harassment becomes more potent, which necessitates an in-between option that allows zerg to have attacking units while also using larvae for drones. hence, in this case, queen buffs and mass queen builds 4. as zerg become better and better at using queens defensively and anticipating harass, T and P start struggling to achieve that damage, which gives the feeling of having to work harder to achieve damage than zerg does to defend - somewhat similar to the HotS TvP meta where heavy harass was necessary, possible, but very difficult against a prepared opponent obviously all these things are debatable when it comes to the game being "fair and balanced," and obviously all races are capable of beating each other at all levels, but this is a general picture of one of the major problems with balancing zerg. i am open to redesigns that relegate queens back to support as long as there's a better solution being proposed for how zerg can play games out without being forced into simply cutting at the exact same number of drones every game and hoping to win every defensive fight until they gain enough advantage to instantly counterattack. people get bored with the meta when zerg does the same thing every game - with the exception of when a matchup is just widely considered mechanically beautiful on both sides like bio mine vs ling bane muta in HotS. but even that matchup had to be altered eventually.
Had to I'm not really sure it had to be altered it was so adored by the community. But it was any way. Constant action, a pinnacle of mechanicle skill for any matchup in the game. I miss it.
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They talked to pro players and - surprise - they finally get good patchnotes!
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On September 27 2018 04:45 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second. What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule. The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change. While I don't disagree that there can be incredibly specific situations where it will make a difference, I will point out that with two attacks we're talking about essentially 0.06 seconds for two attacks, and at that small of a scale, latency can be as big of a factor as well. The entire difference will be in if the medivac can move out of range in that 6/100ths of a second. Chances are, if the medivac was boosting at either attack speed it would be out of range in either case.
Again, we're talking less than a twentieth of a second here. Amounts of time small enough that your brain can't actually comprehend them. In cases where hydras are fighting other units, it takes multiple seconds of sustained fighting without the hydras ever repositioning for this change to make any difference. In reality, in most fights units have to reposition so much that that 3/100ths of a second won't matter.
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On September 27 2018 05:39 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 04:45 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second. What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule. The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change. While I don't disagree that there can be incredibly specific situations where it will make a difference, I will point out that with two attacks we're talking about essentially 0.06 seconds for two attacks, and at that small of a scale, latency can be as big of a factor as well. The entire difference will be in if the medivac can move out of range in that 6/100ths of a second. Chances are, if the medivac was boosting at either attack speed it would be out of range in either case. Again, we're talking less than a twentieth of a second here. Amounts of time small enough that your brain can't actually comprehend them. In cases where hydras are fighting other units, it takes multiple seconds of sustained fighting without the hydras ever repositioning for this change to make any difference. In reality, in most fights units have to reposition so much that that 3/100ths of a second won't matter.
Thats true, it is a very small time frame where the nerf can affect the outcome, with latency in mind it gets even more unlikely it would make the difference. You're right!
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On September 27 2018 06:37 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 05:39 Ben... wrote:On September 27 2018 04:45 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second. What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule. The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change. While I don't disagree that there can be incredibly specific situations where it will make a difference, I will point out that with two attacks we're talking about essentially 0.06 seconds for two attacks, and at that small of a scale, latency can be as big of a factor as well. The entire difference will be in if the medivac can move out of range in that 6/100ths of a second. Chances are, if the medivac was boosting at either attack speed it would be out of range in either case. Again, we're talking less than a twentieth of a second here. Amounts of time small enough that your brain can't actually comprehend them. In cases where hydras are fighting other units, it takes multiple seconds of sustained fighting without the hydras ever repositioning for this change to make any difference. In reality, in most fights units have to reposition so much that that 3/100ths of a second won't matter. Thats true, it is a very small time frame where the nerf can affect the outcome, with latency in mind it gets even more unlikely it would make the difference. You're right!
It won't make a difference when all hydras can fire. The difference will be felt in army vs. army engagements with the back row of hydras losing more of their DPS compared to the front row. It will still be a small difference.
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On September 27 2018 05:39 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 04:45 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second. What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule. The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change. While I don't disagree that there can be incredibly specific situations where it will make a difference, I will point out that with two attacks we're talking about essentially 0.06 seconds for two attacks, and at that small of a scale, latency can be as big of a factor as well. The entire difference will be in if the medivac can move out of range in that 6/100ths of a second. Chances are, if the medivac was boosting at either attack speed it would be out of range in either case. Again, we're talking less than a twentieth of a second here. Amounts of time small enough that your brain can't actually comprehend them. In cases where hydras are fighting other units, it takes multiple seconds of sustained fighting without the hydras ever repositioning for this change to make any difference. In reality, in most fights units have to reposition so much that that 3/100ths of a second won't matter.
After you put it that way this change seems so small why is bliz even bothering in the first place? The creep and queen changes are huge but this hardly seems to matter at all.
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On September 27 2018 08:47 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 05:39 Ben... wrote:On September 27 2018 04:45 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 27 2018 04:11 Ben... wrote:On September 26 2018 17:34 omop wrote:On September 26 2018 16:48 RuFF_SC2 wrote:
So blizzard changes hydra hp back to nerf dps so that instead a hydra can fire 14 times instead of 15 times, you know the battles over by than. This logic makes no sense. Hydras fire every shot slower than before. Not just 15th. That logic makes no sense. I think hydras have been in fine spot after the split upgrades. Hydras don't need big nerf. At least not versus mech. I hope they don't nerf hydra hp. They are already glass cannons vs storms and tanks. What he means is that in the time a hydra used to do 15 attacks, it now does 14. It makes perfect sense to me. The nerf is an approximate 5% attack speed nerf, so for every 10 shots a hydra does now, they get 9.5ish shots with the speed change. Doing the actual math of 0.54/0.57 to get the difference in speed (which is 0.94736... attacks for every current attack), it actually takes 19 attacks at the current speed to lose one complete attack at the new speed (so 18 attacks at the new speed for every 19 attack a hydra currently takes). A simpler way of thinking about it is a hydra currently does 19 attacks in 10.26 seconds (0.54*19 = 10.26), after the patch it will do 18 attacks in that 10.26 seconds (18*0.57 = 10.26). For shorter fights, the difference will be minuscule. To put into perspective how tiny this change is, for 4.0, the stalker attack speed changed from 1.0 to 1.54 (or for every 3 attacks a stalker did prior to 4.0 and after it was reverted, it would do 2 attacks on the 4.0 patch). That change was easily noticeable but wasn't as dramatic as it sounds and was quickly adjusted to by most protoss players. From a psychological perspective, most players probably won't even notice a change of around 5% on an already short attack speed. There's a thing called the Weber-Fechner Law that delves into this kind of thing. A change this tiny won't require any adjustment to play with since it is quite literally 3/100ths of a second difference in attack speed on an attack that takes slightly more than half a second. What the original poster and you from the looks of it fail to realize is that this change can make a huge difference in short fight. The difference is not as you say minuscule. The attack speed reduction makes it so that in some situations three hydras used to have time to attack two times each but after the patch they only had time to shoot once before the medivac or warpprism got away. That is one examle how in a short fight this nerf can make the difference between a dead loaded medivac or a live one. It all depends if the nerf makes the hydra take one less shot that it would have before the nerf or not, if it doesn't the effect is 0 but if it does the effect can be big. It all depends from engagement to engagement but it is definitely not a meaningless change. While I don't disagree that there can be incredibly specific situations where it will make a difference, I will point out that with two attacks we're talking about essentially 0.06 seconds for two attacks, and at that small of a scale, latency can be as big of a factor as well. The entire difference will be in if the medivac can move out of range in that 6/100ths of a second. Chances are, if the medivac was boosting at either attack speed it would be out of range in either case. Again, we're talking less than a twentieth of a second here. Amounts of time small enough that your brain can't actually comprehend them. In cases where hydras are fighting other units, it takes multiple seconds of sustained fighting without the hydras ever repositioning for this change to make any difference. In reality, in most fights units have to reposition so much that that 3/100ths of a second won't matter. After you put it that way this change seems so small why is bliz even bothering in the first place? The creep and queen changes are huge but this hardly seems to matter at all. I kinda laughed when I saw it, to be honest. It seems kinda pointless. They've fine tuned numbers in the past but this just seems silly in how tiny the change is.
The only way I can possibly think of that makes it sounds anything other than trivially small is that the DPS of hydras changes from around 22.2 to 21.1. So basically, after the patch you will need 21 hydras to do roughly the same amount of DPS 20 hydras currently do. But again, at that scale, so many other factors will come into play that it's not likely to actually matter. That one DPS isn't exactly big given most units have 45 health or more (outside of probes and drones, which will still get killed in two shots). There might be a few situations where it will take a single extra hit from a group of hydras to kill something but that's about it.
I looked up the marine to compare, and the hydra is still faster, though just barely (an unstimmed marine has an attack speed/cooldown of 0.61. With stim it's halved to 0.305).
Looking at older patches, the few times there have been attack speed changes, it's on the quarter to half second scale. Not 3/100ths of a second. For example, for 4.0 they changed the stalker to have an attack speed of 1.54 instead of 1. Then when they changed the attack to tone it down a bit they changed it to 1.34. The only other change I can find in LoTV patches that comes close to this one in terms of smallness is when they changed siege tanks sieged attack to have an attack speed/cooldown of 2.14 instead of 2, which around a 6-7% change.
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I don't think there's any magical reasoning behind the dps change, other than they wanted to make it roughly the same magnitude as the earlier HP nerf (~5%). In isolation, they're roughly equivalent. That said, they're ignoring the fact that the HP nerf actually does change some unit interactions that changing the dps doesn't, like:
1. Liberators one-shotting hydras at +3
2. Tanks start two-shotting hydras at +1 instead of +3
3. Immortals start four-shotting hydras at +2 instead of +3 (and at +1 if the Zerg is doesn't have carapace upgrades)
4. Oracles four-shotting instead of five
and so on
Then again, the thing about the dps-nerf is that it comes into effect as long as the hydras are firing, whereas a HP nerf only matters when they take damage. A lot of times they're going to be behind a meatshield and if your units get on top of them you've probably already won the fight (this is probably more true against Protoss than Terran because it's easier to target-fire hydras with longer-ranged siege units like tanks and liberators).
If I had to guess I'd say the HP nerf is more consequential, but I don't think the dps nerf is completely insignificant either.
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The hp nerf mattered, this dps change is just a trick.
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LOL at the hydra "nerf".
Sure, this was feedback from the pros. I suspect one of the entitled European zergs (dont think it was Serral or Stephano) who advocated for this.
After the region lock to prop up their ineptitude, aggressively pushing this Zerg favored agenda.
User was warned for this post.
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On September 27 2018 04:27 TheZergishOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else. It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works. It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there. Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides. Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners.
because denying creep is harder than spreading it on big maps and it's getting out of control for terran, so much panick already for such a small nerf, and queens def can defend any allin with lings.
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I don't like the hydra attack speed nerf. It's a fragile ranged damage dealer, and the health buffs made it less fragile.
If a nerf is required, nerfing the attack speed will actually make it more "all around" because less specialised, which contradicts what blizzard wants (and what would be good) for the unit.
Moreover a 5 hitpoints nerf is perfectly sensible. Would make the unit a little more fragile but nothing crazy.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 27 2018 14:54 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2018 04:27 TheZergishOne wrote:On September 27 2018 03:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
On the topic of creep spread, I think the value of map control and vision the creep gives is not given enough importance. Zerg right now can build a lot of queens stay safe from almost everything while getting map control and vision for free(creep+OL) and get ahead economically. So thats where we are usually when we enter midgame unless the zerg opponent went for an early attack and if the opponent did chances are zerg is stil ahead economically and map control wise.
So how is this fair, zerg gets basically three big advantages from how strong queens have been recently. Safe from allins and harass, strong economy and map control. This creep and transfusion nerfs both attempt to nerf the queen which in my opinion is reasonable, maybe zerg needs other buffs to balance it out but some of zergs power needs to be moved from queens to literally anywhere else. It's not free, queens cost minerals and creep takes multi tasking and energy. Overlords can easily be denied by Vikings and phoenixes, and in fact that's one of the biggest reasons behind the meta shift into such heavy creep spread: because overlord vision is denied so easily. Zerg needs to be ahead economically just to fight on even footing, that's how the race works. It's fair because of the big three types of investment in starcraft. There's army, tech, and economy. Zerg invests heavily in economy and army (600+ minerals in queens) early on, while Terran invests in army and tech and protoss invests in tech and economy. Map control is an extension of how active you are on the map, and if you watch Koreans play they'll do things like snipe creep tumors with their reaper and hellions which are just multi tasking skills to help them keep map control. See the other side of this is anything that isn't covered in creep is not controlled by the zerg and if the Terran or protoss has the multi tasking to keep spotting units alive there, then they have map control there. Also queens will not save you from allins or even all harass openers. Even just defending hellions is a micro battle on both sides. Honestly, complaining about queens is a meme to me and I can't believe blizzard is actually listening to these whiners. because denying creep is harder than spreading it on big maps and it's getting out of control for terran, so much panick already for such a small nerf, and queens def can defend any allin with lings.
Meh, this way written it sounds so ezpz and nice, but have you played the zerg? Finding the balance between building queens(150 min) and 3 drones isn't exactly as easy as it sounds. The problem is that queens go way out of hand in the later stages, but having too many queens in early stages of the game places you in disadvantage. You cannot attack(they're slow walkers) and you invested into something that's doing nothing. Larvae is nice, but if you don't have the economy...
To balance out queens Blizzard would need to redesign Zerg and that's not happening  They are strong, but they have to be strong because that's how Zerg works. It's the same as nerfing chrono/MULEs and then be surprised both races suck hard.
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Hydra change isn't the biggest one of course, but 5 % is 5 %. One dps less is like 1/2 attack upgrade.
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On September 26 2018 16:14 Musicus wrote:
Good stuff, I am sure Protoss will get a buff before it goes live and if Terran proxies don't stop it will be addressed. But this is a good patch for now.
What else can terran do but proxy?? its not like we can win late game
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On September 26 2018 21:36 DubiousC2 wrote:
Lol @ the "nerf" to Hydras.
As a Terran - it's kinda sad seeing how this year's balance patch will royally screw Protoss in pretty similar fashion to how last year's balance patch screwed over Terran.
trust me, protoss will always have terrans they can get freewins of.
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On September 26 2018 08:16 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2018 07:28 batatm wrote:
a lot of zerg changes, no terran changes, 2 protoss changes that are also about zerg.
small wonder, it's been a tough year for zerg, and clearly the devs understand this too.
and don't you go and push serral on a pedestal!
while no one can deny is insane achievements this year,it only shows his dominance as an individual,
while zerg players as a whole were not very successful lately, to say the least. I think Zerg was pretty successful this year even if we took out Serral. WCS in the foreign scene is filled with zerg players (serral won his last WCS circuit playing only zvz). Zerg has been represented well in most of the premier tournaments this year. Which tournament are you referring to that did not have good zerg representation?
late, i know, but i still think you're eligible for an answer.
so, mainly GSL, i admit that's the one format i watched pretty consistently this year (not to say i didn't watch foreign tournaments at all).
other than that, wcs standings in both regions might suggest there's a problem as well.
i know some might say that it's not indicative enough to rely on, but it IS the accumulated resuls of the whole year.
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EPT
