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It really is the variety of strategies off the proxy that makes this style so strong right now, especially in a BoX series. It's pretty interesting to watch but I will say it is starting to become annoying, and if the trend continues, it might be something to address. PvT is just really weird right now, sort of refreshing but potentially detrimental for the game.
Anyway, Neeb played pretty well up until that throw on 16-Bit. I think that really seemed to shake him up, he completely had that game. Who knows what would've happen had he gone up 3-1, but alas, it was not meant to be. Overall, Neeb is in pretty good form, it's nice to see him playing well again and I'm sure he can do well in Montreal.
TY is a beast and altho half of me wants Maru to claim a 3rd GSL in a row, I'm sort of rooting for TY to finally take a GSL. Based on this series, I'm expecting Maru vs Zest to be an absolute clown fiesta, even moreso than TY vs Zest last season.
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2018 and Starcraft is more exciting than ever. I fucking love this game.
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Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion.
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I think this TvP proxy meta is a natural ebb and flow that is just part of further figuring out the game. SC2 and LoTV in particular has never had a ton of time to settle or evolve between considerable changes.
If the game is allowed to evolve without any changes for a while, I’m sure most of these proxy strats will get figured
out and P players will get better at spotting the subtle tells that indicate which variation they’re dealing with. These games will then usually lead to both players transitioning in a fairly even game.
A GSL BO7 with prep-time is a bit different imo than the ‘overall’ online/offline/ladder meta. In a multiple round game of imperfect information such as poker or SC2, attempting a MinMax strategy against an opponent of similar skill should involve in ALOT of non-standard/proxy builds (i.e bluffs, probably approaching 50%)
I would be concerned if we saw proxies in more than half of all games over a prolonged period. For now I’m happy because the meta is fresh, provided i still see a couple of macro games in a +/- super late game i’ll be happy eat up the proxies in between
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On September 05 2018 23:25 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Classic scenario where a foreigner goes full foreigner after throwing a game he could've won
Well TY could have won as well if he had not thrown before. I was a bit disappointed by TY.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 08:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 07:16 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo. Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there  ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past. And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there  (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy) Well the game is not played in a vacuum, maps always play a role. You could also say BL/Infestor wasn't imbalanced because if every map was Steppes of War we would never see it. The question is whether the balance or the maps should be changed
On the current map pool it wouldn't be such a problem even with the HotS balance at that time. Map makers are no longer creating main bases with 270 degrees easy blinkable spots. Sure, part of the change was the revival of Reapers, but still ;-) I don't believe this would be possible with BLI balance era, Steppes of War maps would produce different balance issues and I strongly believe that BLI wasn't map connected that much as the blink issue.
Edit> I don't want to say it wasn't a balance issue, but I would say it was 3:1 map:balance issue. Both time-warp and MSC vission was bad at that time(the example I remember most)
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I don't really feel like the proxy stuff is a problem? IDK it makes the games interesting for me since a lot of them end up in macro games anyway. And its not as risk free for T as people make it out to be. We have seen it fail horribly in games by either getting scouted instantly or just having T die immediately to a P counter.
If it was a bunch of proxy rax SCV pulls then sure, or even like the old 1/1/1 days that was definitely a problem. This was a pretty great series though at least for me,
TY's multitasking was just ridiculous. Neeb was doing amazing most of the time but hes so relentless with it and hes really smart with the non-stop front posturing and different ways he sets it up. I can't even imagine how much I would hate palying against that on ladder as P.
The current meta feels 100x better to me than what it was a few months ago. 99% of the PvTs were bio timing pushes and either P holds spams templar and wins or T kills them with it. Those games got so incredibly boring.
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On September 06 2018 17:18 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 23:25 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Classic scenario where a foreigner goes full foreigner after throwing a game he could've won Well TY could have won as well if he had not thrown before. I was a bit disappointed by TY.
I think TY won that fight + game 100% if he was more decisive and didn't try to pick up. They both threw pretty equally there.
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Russian Federation394 Posts
It was good for him to lose, we don't want to see him getting swept 4-0 in finals.
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This year wasn't that good for TY like '17 but he was really consistent reaching semis and glad he's on finals. Although Maru looks like he's on a fucking fuel and Zest is his nemesis let's hope he wins this one and make a good run on WCS finals.
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Russian Federation146 Posts
1/4 is more than enough for Neeb.
And also I want to see really competitive finals. Maru vs TY will be awesome, I am sure.
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On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion.
8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP.
The games were fantastic.
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I've said it in the preview topic and will say it again. Games indeed were fantastic. Both players showed exeptional skills engaging each other on mulitple fronts all the time. That 16-bit game (1st one) was so back and forth i bet it was even more entertaining than mana/major clash. It 's like classic pvz (ling bane muta vs bio). This is starcraft i want to play and watch. And those proxy meta whiners just need to grow up.
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On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic.
You say 8 years in as if they havent completely changed the game multiple times in the last 3 years. Where were you when the entire community was screaming about Raven design a few months ago lol. Since you are so sure about whats not the reason for the proxy meta, maybe you can enlighten us on what the reason is? Games were fantastic? What made them fantastic? What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok? Im totally fine with proxy existing as a build that mixes into standard play..i cant possibly fathom why anyone would think them becoming the standard play is a good thing though..would be interested to hear logic behind an opposing positon on that.
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On September 06 2018 20:48 insitelol wrote:
I've said it in the preview topic and will say it again. Games indeed were fantastic. Both players showed exeptional skills engaging each other on mulitple fronts all the time. That 16-bit game (1st one) was so back and forth i bet it was even more entertaining than mana/major clash. It 's like classic pvz (ling bane muta vs bio). This is starcraft i want to play and watch. And those proxy meta whiners just need to grow up.
So you like games with action and multitask..thats great i feel the same man. Im not sure how that is in anyway related to every opening being proxy lol. Weve seen exciting tvp with attacks on multiple fronts for the entirety of sc2. Your own tvz example for instance..has literally nothing to do with proxy. Then you casually tell people who hate the proxy meta (which you gave 0 reasons defending as none of ur reasons you stated for enjoying the games relate to proxy) to "grow up"? I really hope you guys advocating for this have only seen 1 or 2 series like this and thats why you are still intrigued. The fact that there is chaos and a bunch if RNG doesnt make it not stale after seeing it 10 times or so
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On September 06 2018 21:49 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic. What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok?
I'm not sure starcraft is for you
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On September 06 2018 22:32 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 21:49 DomeGetta wrote:On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic. What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok? I'm not sure starcraft is for you
LOL very nice complete non answer. 8 years in the making im pretty sure it is.
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wow, neeb did a really good job, regardless of the result.
while i still think that TY will make for a better final, i hope neeb can keep up his form for the rest of the year and continue to kick some butts (and maybe even bring some suspense to the finalk results of montreal).
and since he now is already qualified for the next GSL, i hope that he will come back, with this lvl of play, he surley belongs there
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I dont know if it where the nerves, but game 4 with the draw was in my opion the point where neeb lost. He was in front, he had a lot of minerals and if he had just put some cannons close to the base that was dropped like 5 times...it would have been a clear win i guess. And as neeb is a smart and awesome player and as he had the overmins to do so, I guess it was really the stress to be in the semis....anyway, so TY won because of a strong mind. Congrats!
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The series was very good and game 4 was amazing. TY had it won with his counterattack but he hesitated. Later on, Neeb's failed recall threw the game for him. Do we actually know whether he had the oportunity for recalling before? Maybe it was on cool-down?
I'm not so much annoyed by the proxy meta than by those unholdable double-cyclone builds with SCVs. Has anyone an example of an offline Korean game where the protoss holds it?
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EPT
