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Sad. One recall a bit earlier might have changed everything... but that's Starcraft for you I guess.
GG to both of them and good luck for TY. If it's Maru next he's gonna need it.
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Italy3214 Posts
dat missed recall costed him the series
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He really made it interesting. I was afraid he was going to be bopped, but he proved that he deserved to be in ro4, and he also would have deserved to be in the finals if he had played it just a little bit different. A real show of force and proof that his run was no fluke
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That series was great. Gratz to TY.
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Classic scenario where a foreigner goes full foreigner after throwing a game he could've won
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It's funny how the GSL banner at the top of the post shows Maru and 3 foreigners most clearly - looks like this GSL is going to Korea once more
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neeb looked tactically outmatched, but the disruptor play was cool. what i like about disruptor pvt is that while most terrans try to gain advantages by creating efficient, chaotic engagements with cost effective bio units, a disruptor-based defense forces terran to commit screen attention and APM to every place he's harassing. a lot of terran's strength comes from bleed damage when protoss is trying to control two fronts
the dreamcatcher 4gate was something truly special though. try to 4gate into a scouted one base play, fail the attack while your opponent makes two CC's, fall back, take a gold base, then try to attack late after expanding. wow.
anyway, hope zest wins. the last thing GSL needs is the worst mirror matchup representing a finals.
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On September 05 2018 23:31 brickrd wrote:
anyway, hope zest wins. the last thing GSL needs is the worst mirror matchup representing a finals.
That's not really possible without any Zergs in the semis is it?
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Honestly, i feel everyday like Neeb on last game, losing to that 2 ciclone with SCV push again, again and again.
Also dreamcatcher game without robo on that allin or transition... i was hoping more from Neeb, at least know how to play but i´m still the same
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On September 05 2018 23:31 brickrd wrote:
anyway, hope zest wins. the last thing GSL needs is the worst mirror matchup representing a finals.
You think Maru vs TY would be worse than TY proxying Zest 7 games straight?
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Yah TVT is the most tolerable mirror imo but would almost always prefer non mirror..except for in the current state of tvp..honestly thrilling would have been a good adjective to use for these games the first time maru did it multiple months ago. I think nauseating is a much better one now. This never ending proxy sleezefest is a manifeststion a very broken matchup.
Terran cant hold aggro proxy builds from Toss with FE builds:
Toss cant deal with mid game pressure vs. Terran FE builds:
Terran cant keep up with toss with defensive macro builds:
= non stop fuckfest where viewers dont learn shit except how to mind fuck someone. NOT THRILLED
P.s. not bitching at OP i understand the need for TL to perpetuate the caster type hype train but you can even hear it in tastosis voice when they are casting that they are disappointed lol.
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On September 05 2018 23:48 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 23:31 brickrd wrote:
anyway, hope zest wins. the last thing GSL needs is the worst mirror matchup representing a finals. You think Maru vs TY would be worse than TY proxying Zest 7 games straight?
LOL this 100x this
Its like real life idiocracy.
Proxy isnt supposed to BE the meta LOL.
Its supposed to be mixed in as a risk you take to throw off ur opp. Nobody from blizzard saying shit tho..so must be cool.
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TY played a lot like classic polt on 16bit, I thought
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United States33199 Posts
On September 05 2018 23:25 Bagration wrote:
It's funny how the GSL banner at the top of the post shows Maru and 3 foreigners most clearly - looks like this GSL is going to Korea once more
hey, it's their graphic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail?
There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes 
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On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes
Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed
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Bisutopia19211 Posts
On September 05 2018 23:25 Bagration wrote:
It's funny how the GSL banner at the top of the post shows Maru and 3 foreigners most clearly - looks like this GSL is going to Korea once more
At least one of those foreigners is Harry Potter.
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On September 06 2018 00:33 Parrek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed
So 2-base drop harass or tank push is no longer viable? Sorry too sound ignorant, but I'm genuinely amazed how the meta has changed this year...
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On September 06 2018 01:05 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 00:33 Parrek wrote:On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed So 2-base drop harass or tank push is no longer viable? Sorry too sound ignorant, but I'm genuinely amazed how the meta has changed this year...
It's not considered optimal, but not totally unviable either. For example a big problem with tank pushing is that Protoss can have charge done before you siege them in a place that's truly uncomfortable.
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I predicted the 4-2, but Neeb played really well this series.
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On September 06 2018 00:49 BisuDagger wrote:
At least one of those foreigners is Harry Potter.
LOL
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On September 06 2018 01:09 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 01:05 RKC wrote:On September 06 2018 00:33 Parrek wrote:On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed So 2-base drop harass or tank push is no longer viable? Sorry too sound ignorant, but I'm genuinely amazed how the meta has changed this year... It's not considered optimal, but not totally unviable either. For example a big problem with tank pushing is that Protoss can have charge done before you siege them in a place that's truly uncomfortable.
Before proxy became meta, you could see protoss even getting storm in time for 3 rax and tank pushes.
While also getting a third.
I'd argue its less about imbalance perse and more about advantages and disadvantages. You don't want a protoss getting 3 bases storm/charge and double forge, thats has been the thing since HotS, terran have simply been getting aggressive earlier as time goes, from 2 bases stim, to 1-1-1 with expand, to 1-1-1 before expand to outright proxying.
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On September 06 2018 01:49 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 01:09 Elentos wrote:On September 06 2018 01:05 RKC wrote:On September 06 2018 00:33 Parrek wrote:On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed So 2-base drop harass or tank push is no longer viable? Sorry too sound ignorant, but I'm genuinely amazed how the meta has changed this year... It's not considered optimal, but not totally unviable either. For example a big problem with tank pushing is that Protoss can have charge done before you siege them in a place that's truly uncomfortable. Before proxy became meta, you could see protoss even getting storm in time for 3 rax and tank pushes. While also getting a third. I'd argue its less about imbalance perse and more about advantages and disadvantages. You don't want a protoss getting 3 bases storm/charge and double forge, thats has been the thing since HotS, terran have simply been getting aggressive earlier as time goes, from 2 bases stim, to 1-1-1 with expand, to 1-1-1 before expand to outright proxying.
Totally understand how TvP has always been about stopping the Toss macro machine kicking in on 3 bases. Just curious as to why proxy has been the most optimal play of late. Recent patch changes?
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On September 06 2018 01:55 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 01:49 Lexender wrote:On September 06 2018 01:09 Elentos wrote:On September 06 2018 01:05 RKC wrote:On September 06 2018 00:33 Parrek wrote:On September 06 2018 00:20 RKC wrote:Haven't watched SC2 in a while. It is quite disappointing if proxy is the Terran meta. The main point of LOTV's increase of workers is to cut out super-early cheeses and escalate the action into mid-game quicker. Mission fail? There's nothing wrong with early game harass and cheese being still viable. But it's a bit unfair if only a specific race can pull them off. I miss ling pool rushes Arguably, the proxy meta is a response to the fact that Protoss have gotten really good at defending, especially with the strength shield batteries give. Protoss can cut a lot of corners and get fast third double upgrades in many games. To counter that Terrans are aggressive to force toss to be less greedy. Another note is that just like with 3 rax reapers, many terrans have learned how to transition well so it's not as committed So 2-base drop harass or tank push is no longer viable? Sorry too sound ignorant, but I'm genuinely amazed how the meta has changed this year... It's not considered optimal, but not totally unviable either. For example a big problem with tank pushing is that Protoss can have charge done before you siege them in a place that's truly uncomfortable. Before proxy became meta, you could see protoss even getting storm in time for 3 rax and tank pushes. While also getting a third. I'd argue its less about imbalance perse and more about advantages and disadvantages. You don't want a protoss getting 3 bases storm/charge and double forge, thats has been the thing since HotS, terran have simply been getting aggressive earlier as time goes, from 2 bases stim, to 1-1-1 with expand, to 1-1-1 before expand to outright proxying. Totally understand how TvP has always been about stopping the Toss macro machine kicking in on 3 bases. Just curious as to why proxy has been the most optimal play of late. Recent patch changes?
The interesting thing is that I think the most recent changes have been Terran buffs, but we've still moved to proxy meta. It's a meta development which will eventually peter out as toss builds move to either super early probe scout or double probe early game or become more defensive with their builds
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So this was a nice practice run for Neeb before the global finals, eh? Looking forward to that! 
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I'm glad neeb went disrupters, it made it interesting.
The no-risk proxy by terran however is getting pretty boring/annoying in the matchup. If protoss had lowrisk/low investment cheese the story would be so different from people complaining.
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On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
I'm glad neeb went disrupters, it made it interesting.
The no-risk proxy by terran however is getting pretty boring/annoying in the matchup. If protoss had lowrisk/low investment cheese the story would be so different from people complaining.
I'm not sure I understand your post all that well.
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously).
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On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously).
When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all.
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On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.)
That is very debatable.
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On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all.
Adepts before they were nerfed several times, 6-gate blink all-in, and a number of other cheeses from WoL and HotS whose names escape me tonight...
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On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all.
Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them.
Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo.
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There was absolutely no reason for need to have missed the recall, he had plenty of time to do it and waited till the last second, but for what? Nothing to gain killing an extra building or two in TY base when he knows plenty of buildings are flying all over. All he had was the handful of units to micro so I can’t see how he was distracted elsewhere. Should have been an instant recall for his only chance of winning, Sorry to say this lost was entirely his own fault with terrible decision making. Can someone enlighten me on what the reasoning is for the very slow recall?
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both played pretty well, but both made a big mistake in game 4. Late recall for Neeb, and questionable medivac moves from TY.
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On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:
U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them.
Either way the current meta is absurd..
I never said blink allins weren't good or maybe even a bit too good. What I am annoyed about is the formulation "literally impossible". It sounds like there was a 0% chance of a terran winning vs a protoss using this build, no matter how good the terran is, i mean it was hard for sure, but with proper scouting and reaction you could defend it on any map (yes, even Yeonsu). Still they were too strong and the situation got fixed.
On the second point i agree. Seeing proxies every game isn't much more fun to me than seeing blink allins all the time. Hope we will see some other stuff in the future.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo.
Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there  ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past.
And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there  (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy)
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On September 06 2018 00:49 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 23:25 Bagration wrote:
It's funny how the GSL banner at the top of the post shows Maru and 3 foreigners most clearly - looks like this GSL is going to Korea once more At least one of those foreigners is Harry Potter.
More like Harry Fatter, am I right?
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On September 06 2018 06:55 CWeS_Neuling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:
U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them.
Either way the current meta is absurd..
I never said blink allins weren't good or maybe even a bit too good. What I am annoyed about is the formulation "literally impossible". It sounds like there was a 0% chance of a terran winning vs a protoss using this build, no matter how good the terran is, i mean it was hard for sure, but with proper scouting and reaction you could defend it on any map (yes, even Yeonsu). Still they were too strong and the situation got fixed. On the second point i agree. Seeing proxies every game isn't much more fun to me than seeing blink allins all the time. Hope we will see some other stuff in the future.
We might be thinking of different problems at different times. I do remember a number of pro matches where a strong Terran did everything he could have other than blind countering from the beginning of the game and still lost decisively, sometimes to substantially weaker Protoss opponents. Hence my choice of wording.
Anyway I do agree with your last point. Any meta where you always see the same thing and any variation is tantamount to an insta-loss is very bad, doubly so when the strategy itself isn't fun.
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Germany15880 Posts
On September 06 2018 07:16 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo. Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past. And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy)
Well the game is not played in a vacuum, maps always play a role.
You could also say BL/Infestor wasn't imbalanced because if every map was Steppes of War we would never see it.
The question is whether the balance or the maps should be changed
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Give Classic, Zest, et al. some time to think of a good way to take advantage of the proxy meta. Also it isn't a risk-free cheese, there are different kind of proxies that terran can use. The strong the rush force, the more of an all-in the attack is.
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It really is the variety of strategies off the proxy that makes this style so strong right now, especially in a BoX series. It's pretty interesting to watch but I will say it is starting to become annoying, and if the trend continues, it might be something to address. PvT is just really weird right now, sort of refreshing but potentially detrimental for the game.
Anyway, Neeb played pretty well up until that throw on 16-Bit. I think that really seemed to shake him up, he completely had that game. Who knows what would've happen had he gone up 3-1, but alas, it was not meant to be. Overall, Neeb is in pretty good form, it's nice to see him playing well again and I'm sure he can do well in Montreal.
TY is a beast and altho half of me wants Maru to claim a 3rd GSL in a row, I'm sort of rooting for TY to finally take a GSL. Based on this series, I'm expecting Maru vs Zest to be an absolute clown fiesta, even moreso than TY vs Zest last season.
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2018 and Starcraft is more exciting than ever. I fucking love this game.
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Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion.
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I think this TvP proxy meta is a natural ebb and flow that is just part of further figuring out the game. SC2 and LoTV in particular has never had a ton of time to settle or evolve between considerable changes.
If the game is allowed to evolve without any changes for a while, I’m sure most of these proxy strats will get figured
out and P players will get better at spotting the subtle tells that indicate which variation they’re dealing with. These games will then usually lead to both players transitioning in a fairly even game.
A GSL BO7 with prep-time is a bit different imo than the ‘overall’ online/offline/ladder meta. In a multiple round game of imperfect information such as poker or SC2, attempting a MinMax strategy against an opponent of similar skill should involve in ALOT of non-standard/proxy builds (i.e bluffs, probably approaching 50%)
I would be concerned if we saw proxies in more than half of all games over a prolonged period. For now I’m happy because the meta is fresh, provided i still see a couple of macro games in a +/- super late game i’ll be happy eat up the proxies in between
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On September 05 2018 23:25 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Classic scenario where a foreigner goes full foreigner after throwing a game he could've won
Well TY could have won as well if he had not thrown before. I was a bit disappointed by TY.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 08:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 07:16 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote:On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote:
There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers."
And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo. Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past. And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy) Well the game is not played in a vacuum, maps always play a role. You could also say BL/Infestor wasn't imbalanced because if every map was Steppes of War we would never see it. The question is whether the balance or the maps should be changed
On the current map pool it wouldn't be such a problem even with the HotS balance at that time. Map makers are no longer creating main bases with 270 degrees easy blinkable spots. Sure, part of the change was the revival of Reapers, but still ;-) I don't believe this would be possible with BLI balance era, Steppes of War maps would produce different balance issues and I strongly believe that BLI wasn't map connected that much as the blink issue.
Edit> I don't want to say it wasn't a balance issue, but I would say it was 3:1 map:balance issue. Both time-warp and MSC vission was bad at that time(the example I remember most)
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I don't really feel like the proxy stuff is a problem? IDK it makes the games interesting for me since a lot of them end up in macro games anyway. And its not as risk free for T as people make it out to be. We have seen it fail horribly in games by either getting scouted instantly or just having T die immediately to a P counter.
If it was a bunch of proxy rax SCV pulls then sure, or even like the old 1/1/1 days that was definitely a problem. This was a pretty great series though at least for me,
TY's multitasking was just ridiculous. Neeb was doing amazing most of the time but hes so relentless with it and hes really smart with the non-stop front posturing and different ways he sets it up. I can't even imagine how much I would hate palying against that on ladder as P.
The current meta feels 100x better to me than what it was a few months ago. 99% of the PvTs were bio timing pushes and either P holds spams templar and wins or T kills them with it. Those games got so incredibly boring.
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On September 06 2018 17:18 DSh1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 23:25 Clazziquai10 wrote:
Classic scenario where a foreigner goes full foreigner after throwing a game he could've won Well TY could have won as well if he had not thrown before. I was a bit disappointed by TY.
I think TY won that fight + game 100% if he was more decisive and didn't try to pick up. They both threw pretty equally there.
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Russian Federation384 Posts
It was good for him to lose, we don't want to see him getting swept 4-0 in finals.
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This year wasn't that good for TY like '17 but he was really consistent reaching semis and glad he's on finals. Although Maru looks like he's on a fucking fuel and Zest is his nemesis let's hope he wins this one and make a good run on WCS finals.
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Russian Federation142 Posts
1/4 is more than enough for Neeb.
And also I want to see really competitive finals. Maru vs TY will be awesome, I am sure.
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On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion.
8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP.
The games were fantastic.
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I've said it in the preview topic and will say it again. Games indeed were fantastic. Both players showed exeptional skills engaging each other on mulitple fronts all the time. That 16-bit game (1st one) was so back and forth i bet it was even more entertaining than mana/major clash. It 's like classic pvz (ling bane muta vs bio). This is starcraft i want to play and watch. And those proxy meta whiners just need to grow up.
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On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic.
You say 8 years in as if they havent completely changed the game multiple times in the last 3 years. Where were you when the entire community was screaming about Raven design a few months ago lol. Since you are so sure about whats not the reason for the proxy meta, maybe you can enlighten us on what the reason is? Games were fantastic? What made them fantastic? What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok? Im totally fine with proxy existing as a build that mixes into standard play..i cant possibly fathom why anyone would think them becoming the standard play is a good thing though..would be interested to hear logic behind an opposing positon on that.
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On September 06 2018 20:48 insitelol wrote:
I've said it in the preview topic and will say it again. Games indeed were fantastic. Both players showed exeptional skills engaging each other on mulitple fronts all the time. That 16-bit game (1st one) was so back and forth i bet it was even more entertaining than mana/major clash. It 's like classic pvz (ling bane muta vs bio). This is starcraft i want to play and watch. And those proxy meta whiners just need to grow up.
So you like games with action and multitask..thats great i feel the same man. Im not sure how that is in anyway related to every opening being proxy lol. Weve seen exciting tvp with attacks on multiple fronts for the entirety of sc2. Your own tvz example for instance..has literally nothing to do with proxy. Then you casually tell people who hate the proxy meta (which you gave 0 reasons defending as none of ur reasons you stated for enjoying the games relate to proxy) to "grow up"? I really hope you guys advocating for this have only seen 1 or 2 series like this and thats why you are still intrigued. The fact that there is chaos and a bunch if RNG doesnt make it not stale after seeing it 10 times or so
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On September 06 2018 21:49 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic. What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok?
I'm not sure starcraft is for you
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On September 06 2018 22:32 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 21:49 DomeGetta wrote:On September 06 2018 20:36 FvRGg wrote:On September 06 2018 11:36 SirPinky wrote:
Simply put: All these proxy you see from Terran is because no Terran wants to face a good Protoss late game - it will almost always end in Protoss favor. That is not balance whine, it is just how the races are designed. Many would argue Terran are stronger early/mid game then it seesaw's into Protoss favor. Does that make for 50/50 W/L? Probably, but it is not good game design in my opinion. 8 years in and we still have someone like this talking about game design. Mate, let it go. The proxy meta has nothing to do with Terran not wanting to play late game TvP. The games were fantastic. What is entertaining about watching someone try to guess where the buildings are then guess whether its a committed all in or a farce and hope their response is ok? I'm not sure starcraft is for you
LOL very nice complete non answer. 8 years in the making im pretty sure it is.
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wow, neeb did a really good job, regardless of the result.
while i still think that TY will make for a better final, i hope neeb can keep up his form for the rest of the year and continue to kick some butts (and maybe even bring some suspense to the finalk results of montreal).
and since he now is already qualified for the next GSL, i hope that he will come back, with this lvl of play, he surley belongs there
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I dont know if it where the nerves, but game 4 with the draw was in my opion the point where neeb lost. He was in front, he had a lot of minerals and if he had just put some cannons close to the base that was dropped like 5 times...it would have been a clear win i guess. And as neeb is a smart and awesome player and as he had the overmins to do so, I guess it was really the stress to be in the semis....anyway, so TY won because of a strong mind. Congrats!
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The series was very good and game 4 was amazing. TY had it won with his counterattack but he hesitated. Later on, Neeb's failed recall threw the game for him. Do we actually know whether he had the oportunity for recalling before? Maybe it was on cool-down?
I'm not so much annoyed by the proxy meta than by those unholdable double-cyclone builds with SCVs. Has anyone an example of an offline Korean game where the protoss holds it?
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On September 06 2018 22:51 uummpaa wrote:
and since he now is already qualified for the next GSL, i hope that he will come back, with this lvl of play, he surley belongs there
This was last season for this year, so unless they change something, he will have to go trough qualifiers again.
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On September 05 2018 23:53 DomeGetta wrote:
Yah TVT is the most tolerable mirror imo
Does the meta have changed ? Last TvT i've seen was cyclon vs cyclon... Worst MU.
PvP is always kind of fun to watch, and ZvZ althought anyone start saying "I don't want to watch it", at the end they say "Woo actually the games were good".
When you saw TvT on HOTS, TvT on LOTV is horrible.
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Whenever I tune into ZvZ I regret it. Doesn't help that ZvZ is by far the most played mirror.
TvT early game is retarded, but once it gets past the Cyclone mono-battle stage and into the marine-tank-liberator-viking-raven mid-game it can be very entertaining, especially if both players are skilled (read Korean).
PvP is surprisingly good because watching disruptors blow shit up never gets old.
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Two terrans are using proxy builds and everyone freaks out that the whole meta has changed.
Relax and give it a month or two.
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On September 06 2018 21:56 DomeGetta wrote:
Weve seen exciting tvp with attacks on multiple fronts for the entirety of sc2. ..has literally nothing to do with proxy.
Exactly. Because there is no proxy meta. Games are exciting and fun because of the core SC2 design some people (who just don't want to git gud) are still bitching about. Such kind of games are DIRECT sequence of the the SC2 being left alone w/o patches for a year and players trying out different stuff and having enough time to practice it. I hope it will last.
I can paraphrase it for you exclusively: How come your gamebreaking proxy meta actually produced quality games?
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the proxy bb is stupid and imbalance,protoss has no way to defend perfectly,and terren's cyclone can beat every units of protoss
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On September 07 2018 14:36 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 21:56 DomeGetta wrote:
Weve seen exciting tvp with attacks on multiple fronts for the entirety of sc2. ..has literally nothing to do with proxy. Exactly. Because there is no proxy meta. Games are exciting and fun because of the core SC2 design some people (who just don't want to git gud) are still bitching about. Such kind of games are DIRECT sequence of the the SC2 being left alone w/o patches for a year and players trying out different stuff and having enough time to practice it. I hope it will last. I can paraphrase it for you exclusively: How come your gamebreaking proxy meta actually produced quality games?
Yah sorry man cant really get behind this. 3 of the 4 horsemen are doing nothing but proxy vs toss for better part of a month. You are delusional to say there "is no proxy meta".
Second wrong thing you said which makes me curious if you are messing w me is the game has been left alone for a year?? Wtf u been lol? Multiple patches each season of gsl so far.
Third question:
I never said its impossible to make an exciting game out of a proxy opener. What i said was that proxy openers should not be the standard play in any matchup. Contrary to a few peoples posts here, i strongly believe the meta is a symptom of how stupid the matchup has gotten to play standard.
Hopefully the kids abusing it on ladder trying to promote from bronze cheering on this meta wont distract blizzard from actually trying to fix the matchup.
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this website needs to stop spoiling stuff so quickly after the air date. It's hard to watch it live for most of the world and it's also hard to avoid TL if you want to know upcoming events. Some sort of spoiler tag or something in the title would be great, since you could still write the article....
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Try clicking this "hide spoiler" checkbox on the front page.
+ Show Spoiler +
great series. i love how the landed viking.. in the right hands.. is a viable unit. congrats to neeb and ty for putting on a great series...
congratz to browder, kim, et al for creating a great RTS game that makes a great competitive series like this possible.
On September 07 2018 21:25 DomeGetta wrote:
Yah sorry man cant really get behind this. 3 of the 4 horsemen are doing nothing but proxy vs toss for better part of a month.
Ric Flair and Arn Anderson do not proxy.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NFLLcJ8.jpg)
its nice to see the proxy strategy by terrans force the protoss out of the "i will always expand at teh start no matter what" mindset.
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Bbbut guys...there is no "proxy meta!" Come on the games are FANTASTIC! So exciting and good for the game omg. I hope it translates to tvt and we get 7 more FANTASTIC games in the final!!
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Thanks JimmyRaynor, I'm dumb!
I hope checking "hide spoilers" box is a known thing.
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EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2018/gsls3banner738px.jpg)
TY earned his return to the Code S grand finals after over two years of waiting, defeating a plucky ![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2018/gsls3bracket1_4.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n5TtcUI.jpg)
