EPTTY defeats Neeb and advances to Code S finals - Page 2
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
On September 06 2018 00:49 BisuDagger wrote: At least one of those foreigners is Harry Potter. LOL | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On September 06 2018 01:09 Elentos wrote: It's not considered optimal, but not totally unviable either. For example a big problem with tank pushing is that Protoss can have charge done before you siege them in a place that's truly uncomfortable. Before proxy became meta, you could see protoss even getting storm in time for 3 rax and tank pushes. While also getting a third. I'd argue its less about imbalance perse and more about advantages and disadvantages. You don't want a protoss getting 3 bases storm/charge and double forge, thats has been the thing since HotS, terran have simply been getting aggressive earlier as time goes, from 2 bases stim, to 1-1-1 with expand, to 1-1-1 before expand to outright proxying. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On September 06 2018 01:49 Lexender wrote: Before proxy became meta, you could see protoss even getting storm in time for 3 rax and tank pushes. While also getting a third. I'd argue its less about imbalance perse and more about advantages and disadvantages. You don't want a protoss getting 3 bases storm/charge and double forge, thats has been the thing since HotS, terran have simply been getting aggressive earlier as time goes, from 2 bases stim, to 1-1-1 with expand, to 1-1-1 before expand to outright proxying. Totally understand how TvP has always been about stopping the Toss macro machine kicking in on 3 bases. Just curious as to why proxy has been the most optimal play of late. Recent patch changes? | ||
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Parrek
United States893 Posts
On September 06 2018 01:55 RKC wrote: Totally understand how TvP has always been about stopping the Toss macro machine kicking in on 3 bases. Just curious as to why proxy has been the most optimal play of late. Recent patch changes? The interesting thing is that I think the most recent changes have been Terran buffs, but we've still moved to proxy meta. It's a meta development which will eventually peter out as toss builds move to either super early probe scout or double probe early game or become more defensive with their builds | ||
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
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franzji
United States583 Posts
The no-risk proxy by terran however is getting pretty boring/annoying in the matchup. If protoss had lowrisk/low investment cheese the story would be so different from people complaining. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote: I'm glad neeb went disrupters, it made it interesting. The no-risk proxy by terran however is getting pretty boring/annoying in the matchup. If protoss had lowrisk/low investment cheese the story would be so different from people complaining. I'm not sure I understand your post all that well. There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers." And people did complain about them (obviously). | ||
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Neuling
Germany45 Posts
On September 06 2018 04:39 youngjiddle wrote: There have been periods in PvT where Protoss strategy was indeed dominated by low risk cheese builds. They weren't low risk in the sense of "make a barracks in the middle of the map then float it safely later", they were low risk in the sense of "just make units and hit this timing and it will be literally impossible for Terran to hold unless he blind countered you by turtling on one base with 5 bunkers." And people did complain about them (obviously). When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote: When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) That is very debatable. | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote: When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Adepts before they were nerfed several times, 6-gate blink all-in, and a number of other cheeses from WoL and HotS whose names escape me tonight... | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:43 CWeS_Neuling wrote: When was there ever a time when holding a protoss cheese with decent scouting was "literally impossible" unless the terran blindcountered the protoss? (and no, proxy sg was never that good. blink allins were neither.) It was always a matter of scouting and reacting acccordingly, just sometimes some cheeses were slightly too powerful (and got nerfed after some time or people figuered out how to defend them), but it was never the way you suggest in your post. But I guess every thread needs a terran to balance whine, even when there is no reason at all. Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo. | ||
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droppanda
Australia176 Posts
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RandomOnlyTheHumanLf
58 Posts
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Neuling
Germany45 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote: U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd.. I never said blink allins weren't good or maybe even a bit too good. What I am annoyed about is the formulation "literally impossible". It sounds like there was a 0% chance of a terran winning vs a protoss using this build, no matter how good the terran is, i mean it was hard for sure, but with proper scouting and reaction you could defend it on any map (yes, even Yeonsu). Still they were too strong and the situation got fixed. On the second point i agree. Seeing proxies every game isn't much more fun to me than seeing blink allins all the time. Hope we will see some other stuff in the future. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 05:51 DomeGetta wrote: Getting way off subject by now..but just quick thinking reminds me of the blink era of hots which was largely due to the map pool. Prior to dt time nerf the 1 base play where it could be blink or dt which have completely different responses when u scout twilight etc. U cant say blink all ins were never good we had an entire season where basically every game we saw them. Either way the current meta is absurd..even tho its helping my favorite players maru and ty get to the finals i still hate it..tvp has always been a frustrating matchup but this is making me long for the days of 3 cc pull the boys w a few vikings yolo hope u can kill the colo. Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there  ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past.And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there  (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy) | ||
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hobbyistGamedev
33 Posts
On September 06 2018 00:49 BisuDagger wrote: At least one of those foreigners is Harry Potter. More like Harry Fatter, am I right? | ||
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On September 06 2018 06:55 CWeS_Neuling wrote: I never said blink allins weren't good or maybe even a bit too good. What I am annoyed about is the formulation "literally impossible". It sounds like there was a 0% chance of a terran winning vs a protoss using this build, no matter how good the terran is, i mean it was hard for sure, but with proper scouting and reaction you could defend it on any map (yes, even Yeonsu). Still they were too strong and the situation got fixed. On the second point i agree. Seeing proxies every game isn't much more fun to me than seeing blink allins all the time. Hope we will see some other stuff in the future. We might be thinking of different problems at different times. I do remember a number of pro matches where a strong Terran did everything he could have other than blind countering from the beginning of the game and still lost decisively, sometimes to substantially weaker Protoss opponents. Hence my choice of wording. Anyway I do agree with your last point. Any meta where you always see the same thing and any variation is tantamount to an insta-loss is very bad, doubly so when the strategy itself isn't fun. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On September 06 2018 07:16 deacon.frost wrote: Blink all ins were all about the map pool though. The idea that all the maps need to have the same design of main/expansion and their surrounding... let's say it otherwise, if every map would have a golden base next to the main, would be Terran flying CC OP or is it a map problem? If every natural would be a golden base(but far enough to not fly there ), would be zerg OP? Let's face it, some of the imbalance issues are the map pool issue, that's why we don't see very often of what I wrote, we learned from the past.And with such big maps and the current economics, why wouldn't you proxy? You have quite low chance of being spotted and you can do it because you don't need a pylon there (with the current eco you need to build the pylon quite early so you can't do reasonable early proxy) Well the game is not played in a vacuum, maps always play a role. You could also say BL/Infestor wasn't imbalanced because if every map was Steppes of War we would never see it. The question is whether the balance or the maps should be changed | ||
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Rodya
546 Posts
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