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Northern Ireland27219 Posts
On August 24 2019 05:39 Balkow wrote:Show nested quote +
Yes and no. For some, they might get money and experience that they otherwise would not have got. However, and this has been a problem for the last few years when people talking about unlocking the region, the only players would would benefit would be those who already don't need help.
The people would would make it far in the GSL would be the ones who make it far in WCS. We're long past the point where being in Code A (qualifiers at this point) guarantees you any success in WCS. If you struggle to get into the GSL, you're going to struggle to make it in the playoffs of WCS.
Quite honestly, players like Speed, Trust, Losira, or even TRUE, wouldn't really do all that well in WCS. They might get ro24 maybe, but I really don't think they'd get any further than ro16.
thanks for the reply, i really wonder if they could make a system were the bad koreans still could compete in WCS. some sort of softlock. if you fell in RO32 of gsl, you can compete in WCS. but if you made it to RO16 you cant. if you did not make it into GSL you can compete in WCS. i really hope for some softlock and not a pure region lock for korea. the fact that we almost always get ZVZ finals in WCS does not make things better.
I’ve pondered this myself, I’d actually thought maybe the best environment for that would be the non-Code S Koreans and the Chinese players having some kind of additional Asian WCS tournament circuit.
I think it would tick a few boxes, both non-top Koreans and the Chinese outside of TIME lag a bit behind top foreigners, travel and time zones wouldn’t be quite as bad for an Asian tournament. China is really the country you could say has seen growth in interest and also has a lot of untapped potential.
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On August 24 2019 08:04 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2019 05:39 Balkow wrote:
Yes and no. For some, they might get money and experience that they otherwise would not have got. However, and this has been a problem for the last few years when people talking about unlocking the region, the only players would would benefit would be those who already don't need help.
The people would would make it far in the GSL would be the ones who make it far in WCS. We're long past the point where being in Code A (qualifiers at this point) guarantees you any success in WCS. If you struggle to get into the GSL, you're going to struggle to make it in the playoffs of WCS.
Quite honestly, players like Speed, Trust, Losira, or even TRUE, wouldn't really do all that well in WCS. They might get ro24 maybe, but I really don't think they'd get any further than ro16.
thanks for the reply, i really wonder if they could make a system were the bad koreans still could compete in WCS. some sort of softlock. if you fell in RO32 of gsl, you can compete in WCS. but if you made it to RO16 you cant. if you did not make it into GSL you can compete in WCS. i really hope for some softlock and not a pure region lock for korea. the fact that we almost always get ZVZ finals in WCS does not make things better. I’ve pondered this myself, I’d actually thought maybe the best environment for that would be the non-Code S Koreans and the Chinese players having some kind of additional Asian WCS tournament circuit. I think it would tick a few boxes, both non-top Koreans and the Chinese outside of TIME lag a bit behind top foreigners, travel and time zones wouldn’t be quite as bad for an Asian tournament. China is really the country you could say has seen growth in interest and also has a lot of untapped potential.
I really liked the idea but someone said something that I felt was valid criticism. For some players who have low chance of getting past the ro32, they may lack motivation to win or worse, may even kind of want to lose. While I do believe the Korean players have enough pride that they would try their best to make ro16 regardless of there being some incentive from losing, it's possible that it becomes a problem. Maybe a solution is to change the distribution of the GSL prize pool by making it larger in the ro16 and allot more WCS points in the ro16 (or just any way to discourage not taking the ro32 seriously).
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honestly i hope they open the floadgates next year. watching serral vs stats was much more enjoyable than watching another ZVZ final! since koreans got good terrans and good protoss, while foreigners only got god lvl zergs, id say lets mix it up.
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On August 24 2019 13:10 Balkow wrote:
honestly i hope they open the floadgates next year. watching serral vs stats was much more enjoyable than watching another ZVZ final! since koreans got good terrans and good protoss, while foreigners only got god lvl zergs, id say lets mix it up.
They should open region lock, but there are good protosses and terrans as well outside of South-Korea, it's not only ZvZ. 3/4 WCS finals in 2018 was Serral against protoss.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On August 24 2019 13:10 Balkow wrote:
honestly i hope they open the floadgates next year. watching serral vs stats was much more enjoyable than watching another ZVZ final! since koreans got good terrans and good protoss, while foreigners only got god lvl zergs, id say lets mix it up.
Unless WCS pays the flight cost I doubt it will be a "flood". WE just saw how many of them went into ROG 
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On August 29 2019 04:55 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2019 13:10 Balkow wrote:
honestly i hope they open the floadgates next year. watching serral vs stats was much more enjoyable than watching another ZVZ final! since koreans got good terrans and good protoss, while foreigners only got god lvl zergs, id say lets mix it up. Unless WCS pays the flight cost I doubt it will be a "flood". WE just saw how many of them went into ROG
Many, indeed; 12/32 for one event in Finland not covering travel expenses and not assigning any WCS point.
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when is this conversation going to die?
the best 100 koreans are far better than the best 100 foreigners and this is not even close.
there is a select group of foreigners that can go toe-to-toe with the best koreans, have lots of offline experience and beat koreans in tournaments.
the fact that people can't reconcile these two things and just want to gloss over it with a blanket statement is just, well, stupid.
the best 5 foreigners vs the best 5 kr players would be a wash.
the best 20 koreans vs the best 20 foreigners... the koreans would wreck them.
gap closed? stupid question.
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On August 29 2019 10:17 Alejandrisha wrote:
when is this conversation going to die?
the best 100 koreans are far better than the best 100 foreigners and this is not even close.
there is a select group of foreigners that can go toe-to-toe with the best koreans, have lots of offline experience and beat koreans in tournaments.
the fact that people can't reconcile these two things and just want to gloss over it with a blanket statement is just, well, stupid.
the best 5 foreigners vs the best 5 kr players would be a wash.
the best 20 koreans vs the best 20 foreigners... the koreans would wreck them.
gap closed? stupid question.
If say we take such a large sample size of 100/100 I might actually give koreans alot less chance then I would before, there are alot of skilled foreigners and alot less koreans who are top notch anymore, it's kinda crazy but they might not have the numbers anymore lol
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With the region lock still on, we won't be seeing any new talents coming from Korea. Gsl is still way more competitive than the Wcs circuit and this would be a discouraging factor to aspiring Korean Starcraft 2 players. Serral already proved that Non Koreans do not necessarily need to play in Korea to be the best so all this region lock thing is doing now is strangling the Korean scene...
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Korean Terrans are also far better than the rest of the non Koreans and so far, there has not been a dominant Non Korean Terran in the Wcs circuit scene. Zerg has Serral, Reynor and a few rising talents, Protoss has Neeb and Showtime but what about Terran? TIME? Special? Sorry but they are still not in the league of the 4 top Korean Terrans. If this region lock continues, we probably won't be seeing a Non Korean Terran win a wcs circuit for awhile. Even if the Koreans are dominant, pros can adapt to their play style and improve which is better than entirely avoiding them and not getting any exposure.
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Russian Federation367 Posts
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect.
So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please.
Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there 
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Russian Federation367 Posts
On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there
You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up.
First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh.
Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea.
Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play.
p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day.
User was warned for this post.
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Czech Republic12132 Posts
On August 29 2019 17:26 LuckyGnomTV wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up. First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh. Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea. Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play. p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day.
On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect.
So I just pointed out you claim the Korean SC2 viewership is dead. And I ask you for the source for such claim. You responded with a personal attack no sources.
I didn't claim the SC2 audience is bigger than LoL or other of the big games, why would I do that? I just asked for the source of what I just bolded in your text.
Edit> Also "most old Pros quit for BW" is interesting claim either but I'm too lazy to go into numbers.
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On August 29 2019 18:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 17:26 LuckyGnomTV wrote:On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up. First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh. Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea. Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play. p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day. Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So I just pointed out you claim the Korean SC2 viewership is dead. And I ask you for the source for such claim. You responded with a personal attack no sources. I didn't claim the SC2 audience is bigger than LoL or other of the big games, why would I do that? I just asked for the source of what I just bolded in your text. Edit> Also "most old Pros quit for BW" is interesting claim either but I'm too lazy to go into numbers.
I know Rain, ByuL, Sacsri and Soulkey all moved on to BW after retiring in SC2. HerO also played BW for a short while I think (I believe he returned to SC2 though). If you look at the ASL Qualifiers, there are many other SC2 players who have played in them.
I've thought about the lost talent from the past few years and for top players who retired, I recall ByuL, Soulkey, MMA, MC, Life, Rain and ByuN (not to mention all of the mid-tier players who retired). Generally speaking, I think Zest, INnoVation, sOs and herO have struggled the hardest in regaining their old form (besides formerly top players who came back from military like Taeja and Bomber). They've all had good years but overall, I feel like they have declined.
It does feel kind of bleak that after Classic (and players close to his age) leaves, the top 3 players will probably consistently be Maru, Dark and Serral (assuming and hoping that WCS is still running).
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On August 29 2019 21:59 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 18:04 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 17:26 LuckyGnomTV wrote:On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up. First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh. Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea. Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play. p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day. On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So I just pointed out you claim the Korean SC2 viewership is dead. And I ask you for the source for such claim. You responded with a personal attack no sources. I didn't claim the SC2 audience is bigger than LoL or other of the big games, why would I do that? I just asked for the source of what I just bolded in your text. Edit> Also "most old Pros quit for BW" is interesting claim either but I'm too lazy to go into numbers. I know Rain, ByuL, Sacsri and Soulkey all moved on to BW after retiring in SC2. HerO also played BW for a short while I think (I believe he returned to SC2 though). If you look at the ASL Qualifiers, there are many other SC2 players who have played in them. I've thought about the lost talent from the past few years and for top players who retired, I recall ByuL, Soulkey, MMA, MC, Life, Rain and ByuN (not to mention all of the mid-tier players who retired). Generally speaking, I think Zest, INnoVation, sOs and herO have struggled the hardest in regaining their old form (besides formerly top players who came back from military like Taeja and Bomber). They've all had good years but overall, I feel like they have declined. It does feel kind of bleak that after Classic (and players close to his age) leaves, the top 3 players will probably consistently be Maru, Dark and Serral (assuming and hoping that WCS is still running).
Only some old korean sc2 pro went to BW(didn't Byul just go to the army? Hyun surely played BW on the other hand), not most of them.
After KeSpa left sc2, the biggest loss was among mid tier and up and comer koreans, quantity more than quality overall. Zest and sOs have declined, I agree, but Inno just had his most successful year in 2017(herO had a good one tho) and was good enough to beat Serral and Maru in 2019, he surely isn't among the ones who went down the furthest.
The biggest retirement wave of top korean players hasn't happened yet, it's about to happen in 2020(Protoss being hurt the most); I wouldn't be so sure Serral, Maru and Dark will constantly be the strongest after that, sc2 has always been pleasantly surprising: some young european could rise to the top and/or some currently weaker korean could ascend like it happened in the last couple of years.
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The gap hasn't closed. Korea still needs to catch up.
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Northern Ireland27219 Posts
On August 29 2019 10:17 Alejandrisha wrote:
when is this conversation going to die?
the best 100 koreans are far better than the best 100 foreigners and this is not even close.
there is a select group of foreigners that can go toe-to-toe with the best koreans, have lots of offline experience and beat koreans in tournaments.
the fact that people can't reconcile these two things and just want to gloss over it with a blanket statement is just, well, stupid.
the best 5 foreigners vs the best 5 kr players would be a wash.
the best 20 koreans vs the best 20 foreigners... the koreans would wreck them.
gap closed? stupid question.
Well I mean is that really true now?
Bomber and Taeja who can make Ro32 in GSL got absolutely destroyed at ASUS ROG
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On August 29 2019 23:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 21:59 Anc13nt wrote:On August 29 2019 18:04 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 17:26 LuckyGnomTV wrote:On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up. First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh. Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea. Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play. p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day. On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So I just pointed out you claim the Korean SC2 viewership is dead. And I ask you for the source for such claim. You responded with a personal attack no sources. I didn't claim the SC2 audience is bigger than LoL or other of the big games, why would I do that? I just asked for the source of what I just bolded in your text. Edit> Also "most old Pros quit for BW" is interesting claim either but I'm too lazy to go into numbers. I know Rain, ByuL, Sacsri and Soulkey all moved on to BW after retiring in SC2. HerO also played BW for a short while I think (I believe he returned to SC2 though). If you look at the ASL Qualifiers, there are many other SC2 players who have played in them. I've thought about the lost talent from the past few years and for top players who retired, I recall ByuL, Soulkey, MMA, MC, Life, Rain and ByuN (not to mention all of the mid-tier players who retired). Generally speaking, I think Zest, INnoVation, sOs and herO have struggled the hardest in regaining their old form (besides formerly top players who came back from military like Taeja and Bomber). They've all had good years but overall, I feel like they have declined. It does feel kind of bleak that after Classic (and players close to his age) leaves, the top 3 players will probably consistently be Maru, Dark and Serral (assuming and hoping that WCS is still running). Only some old korean sc2 pro went to BW(didn't Byul just go to the army? Hyun surely played BW on the other hand), not most of them. After KeSpa left sc2, the biggest loss was among mid tier and up and comer koreans, quantity more than quality overall. Zest and sOs have declined, I agree, but Inno just had his most successful year in 2017(herO had a good one tho) and was good enough to beat Serral and Maru in 2019, he surely isn't among the ones who went down the furthest. The biggest retirement wave of top korean players hasn't happened yet, it's about to happen in 2020(Protoss being hurt the most); I wouldn't be so sure Serral, Maru and Dark will constantly be the strongest after that, sc2 has always been pleasantly surprising: some young european could rise to the top and/or some currently weaker korean could ascend like it happened in the last couple of years.
yeah I forgot about HyuN. It seems to me that there are slightly fewer really good Koreans but way fewer mid-tier Koreans. I think Inno did have great 2017 but his other 3 years were so lackluster in comparison. In HotS, he made all 3 Blizzcon but in LotV he only made 1 out of 4. It really looked like he was going to do well in 2019 but the GSL ro32 was a devastating loss (I think that's the first GSL ro32 he's ever been eliminated from).
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On August 30 2019 13:33 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2019 23:00 Xain0n wrote:On August 29 2019 21:59 Anc13nt wrote:On August 29 2019 18:04 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 17:26 LuckyGnomTV wrote:On August 29 2019 16:23 deacon.frost wrote:On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So another one who has the numbers from Afreeca and their Korean viewership. Can you prove that the vewier count is dead? Foreign stream is stable(and is comparable to the KeSPA numbers) and mind you, AFAIK the Korean viewers can see it on the TV. So unless you insist Afreeca's main stream is the English stream(which would be wrong), give us the numbers how dead is it, please. Anyway, yesterday GSL studio had some standing fans, GSL is so dead people have to stand there You talk about things you don't even understand. Your brain is so messed up. First of all, this topic is about player's skill level and not viewer counts. If you insist on a fact that korean player's skill level hasn't dropped (or at least didn't stagnate) after kespa, osl, proleague and proleague teams training system died I have nothing to say to you and don't even want tbh. Second, the only reason why viewer counts can kind of matter is because it means that game has bigger attention and probably more players are playing it, which can sometimes lead to more good players being born inside of the community. This is where we can compare studios and amount of people there. Before all of this I want to ask you a simple question: have you been in GSL studio? Well, I was. Now let's think. LoL PARK has 500 sitting places, no standing allowed, you need to buy tickets, it is almost always full. FreecUP studio has about 150 sitting places, when it is ASL days (which is BW) it can become bigger to about 200 sitting places, entrance is free and from the latest translations I saw - it is not always full. Now let's think what game has bigger attention: game with brand new stadium for 500 viewers, that is always full and takes money from you to get it or a game with a studio that deliberately removes some of it's chairs on some days and not always full even with free entrance. Even if we will only talk about "last stream where people were standing" that is 250 viewers max on what was probably one of the few best days in terms of viewer interest (btw. it was because of BW player that refused to play BW), compared to standart 500 sitting viewers. Yeah, tell me more about how SC2 important and big in Korea. Third, why you even bring foreign streams viewer counts when we talk about korean players and their level of play. p.s. Info and photos of LoL Park. Photo of Freec UP Studio with additional places for BW day. On August 29 2019 16:12 LuckyGnomTV wrote:
Korean SC2 is dead, so ofc "the gap is closed". It is like closing the gap between a guy that works out every day and handicapped person. The only reason why SC2 is breathing is chinese money. Just compare size of sc2 scene to lol scene, pubg scene or overwatch scene. Hell you can even probably compare SC2 scene to Fifa Online 3 and BW and still it won't favor SC2.
Just think to yourself what changed in the last 5 years in foreign scene? Probably nothing, we still have a number of players that are sponsored by some random teams. What happened to KR scene? Proleague dead, all pro teams dead, as a result all B-teams dead, viewer counts dead, most old pro's quit in favor of BW and ect. So I just pointed out you claim the Korean SC2 viewership is dead. And I ask you for the source for such claim. You responded with a personal attack no sources. I didn't claim the SC2 audience is bigger than LoL or other of the big games, why would I do that? I just asked for the source of what I just bolded in your text. Edit> Also "most old Pros quit for BW" is interesting claim either but I'm too lazy to go into numbers. I know Rain, ByuL, Sacsri and Soulkey all moved on to BW after retiring in SC2. HerO also played BW for a short while I think (I believe he returned to SC2 though). If you look at the ASL Qualifiers, there are many other SC2 players who have played in them. I've thought about the lost talent from the past few years and for top players who retired, I recall ByuL, Soulkey, MMA, MC, Life, Rain and ByuN (not to mention all of the mid-tier players who retired). Generally speaking, I think Zest, INnoVation, sOs and herO have struggled the hardest in regaining their old form (besides formerly top players who came back from military like Taeja and Bomber). They've all had good years but overall, I feel like they have declined. It does feel kind of bleak that after Classic (and players close to his age) leaves, the top 3 players will probably consistently be Maru, Dark and Serral (assuming and hoping that WCS is still running). Only some old korean sc2 pro went to BW(didn't Byul just go to the army? Hyun surely played BW on the other hand), not most of them. After KeSpa left sc2, the biggest loss was among mid tier and up and comer koreans, quantity more than quality overall. Zest and sOs have declined, I agree, but Inno just had his most successful year in 2017(herO had a good one tho) and was good enough to beat Serral and Maru in 2019, he surely isn't among the ones who went down the furthest. The biggest retirement wave of top korean players hasn't happened yet, it's about to happen in 2020(Protoss being hurt the most); I wouldn't be so sure Serral, Maru and Dark will constantly be the strongest after that, sc2 has always been pleasantly surprising: some young european could rise to the top and/or some currently weaker korean could ascend like it happened in the last couple of years. yeah I forgot about HyuN. It seems to me that there are slightly fewer really good Koreans but way fewer mid-tier Koreans. I think Inno did have great 2017 but his other 3 years were so lackluster in comparison. In HotS, he made all 3 Blizzcon but in LotV he only made 1 out of 4. It really looked like he was going to do well in 2019 but the GSL ro32 was a devastating loss (I think that's the first GSL ro32 he's ever been eliminated from).
Honestly watching some GSL yesterday and fantasy special and keen played so insanely good, makes me really doubt the whole koreans are not improving but getting worse, ut just seems to me that everyone has gotten so good at this game that it's really hard to just dominate every player ever series.
Like even serral and dark can look weak in some games, I think the bar is just so high that everyone thinks it's a decline but it really isnt
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EPT
