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On January 20 2018 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:30 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote:
These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that. Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data. On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote:
I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7bgdt3/since_last_years_blizzcon_foreigners_are_359/ Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners. I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly. Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset. Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better?
Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results.
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The very best Koreans still have an advantage which is slowly diminishing. However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea, they are most certainly within reach of top foreigners.
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On January 20 2018 06:45 Kafka777 wrote:
The very best Koreans still have an advantage which is slowly diminishing. However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea, they are most certainly within reach of top foreigners.
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
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Canada8990 Posts
On January 20 2018 05:34 SinO[Ob] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 03:15 Nakajin wrote:On January 20 2018 03:13 opisska wrote:On January 19 2018 03:39 Lysergic1 wrote:
Anyone want to bet against a Zest/SoS finals? If Zest practices his PvZ, that covers all 3 of the threats on his side of the bracket. Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves. Stephano 3-1 Zest calling it now. sOs still win the whole thing. You are a believer Godphano will repay you that. :> GO STEPHANO <3
Not really actually I just really don't belive in Zest
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Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
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On January 20 2018 06:59 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
Patch is planned for January 29th, and while this isn't set in stone Blizzard is almost certainly going to patch then.
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Patch is planned for January 29th, and while this isn't set in stone Blizzard is almost certainly going to patch then
Implementing the patch on the 29 would be as wise as implementing new maps for Leipzig on monday. The closest reasonable date for patch is 8.02.
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On January 20 2018 07:07 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +Patch is planned for January 29th, and while this isn't set in stone Blizzard is almost certainly going to patch then Implementing the patch on the 29 would be as wise as implementing new maps for Leipzig on monday. The closest reasonable date for patch is 8.02.
Say that to Blizzard not me. And to all the terrans that want the patch as soon as possible, and think that January 29th is too late. Like it or not I'm almost certain IEM PyeongChang will be on the next patch.
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Wait.... WHAT? IEM PYEONGYANG?
jk
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On January 20 2018 06:59 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
I never understood why people on here doubt sOs so much in large events. His PvP isn't based on cheese, since 4.0 he has impressive wins over Classic, Dear, Hurricane and a few others without relying on such strategies. If dns wants to win then he'll have to be the one doing the cheese
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On January 20 2018 06:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:30 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote:
These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that. Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data. On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote:
I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7bgdt3/since_last_years_blizzcon_foreigners_are_359/ Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners. I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly. Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset. Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better? Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results.
If you look at only the large/important events, there is still an obvious gap between koreans and foreigners. IEM, WeSG, GSL etc are always korean dominated. Especially in longer series (bo5+) it becomes obvious. People believe foreigners are up there because they ignore the masses of results and only look at the upsets, and because online tournaments give misleading results
Since Kespa Cup, all global tournaments have been one sided. Katowice/Shangai, GSL, WeSG etc. The closest they got were some upsets at blizzcon from Elazer rushing Dark and Stats playing like shit. In bo3 matches you always get the occasional upset (like uthermal beating INnoVation for example). The same way that champs can lose Code A players occsionally, doesn't mean they are on the same level.
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On January 20 2018 08:45 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 06:42 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:38 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:30 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote:
These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that. Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data. On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote:
I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/7bgdt3/since_last_years_blizzcon_foreigners_are_359/ Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners. I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly. Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset. Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better? Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results. If you look at only the large/important events, there is still an obvious gap between koreans and foreigners. IEM, WeSG, GSL etc are always korean dominated. Especially in longer series (bo5+) it becomes obvious. People believe foreigners are up there because they ignore the masses of results and only look at the upsets, and because online tournaments give misleading results Since Kespa Cup, all global tournaments have been one sided. Katowice/Shangai, GSL, WeSG etc. The closest they got were some upsets at blizzcon from Elazer rushing Dark and Stats playing like shit. In bo3 matches you always get the occasional upset (like uthermal beating INnoVation for example). The same way that champs can lose Code A players occsionally, doesn't mean they are on the same level.
I'm not arguing that there isn't a significant gap. I'm saying you shouldn't use rigged data to support claims about the size of the gap.
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The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
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On January 20 2018 06:45 Kafka777 wrote:
However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea.
They are both in GSL ro16 Zest may not be top 8 but sOs is one of the best players right now. Just look at his results in the qualifiers for this tourney and for katowice. He crushed his group in GSL ro32 and is rank 1 on kr ladder. What makes you think he is not a top8 player?
On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote:
The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
This is just delusional. No foreigner is top 10 in the world.
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On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote:
The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
Disagree entirely. What does your top 10 look like? Because I think the top foreigners are significantly worse than the first string of Koreans (e.g Classic, INnoVation, herO, sOs, soO, Dark), and noticeably worse than the second string of Koreans (e.g GuMiho, Zest, Dear, Impact, ByuN, TY, Rogue, aLive, Stats). And I'm not being exhaustive while naming players.
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Disagree entirely. What does your top 10 look like? Because I think the top foreigners are significantly worse than the first string of Koreans (e.g Classic, INnoVation, herO, sOs, soO, Dark), and noticeably worse than the second string of Koreans (e.g GuMiho, Zest, Dear, Impact, ByuN, TY, Rogue, aLive, Stats). And I'm not being exhaustive while naming players.
Well, Serral being top 1 in Korea ladder may be a clue, several other foreigners being easily in top 15 ladder may be another clue. Indeed you are right - this has to be proven in tournaments, however the players also practice, the trend is that the Koreans are going down. There are hundreds of games being played every day that indicate that Koreans may not perform as expected or at least the chances are equal.
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This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
I for one will abstain.
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This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
I for one will abstain.
Nope, this horse has not been beaten down or at least not the new one (earlier the fight was far from equal in termsa of opportunity). You see, foreign players really practice now, coz it is worth their time. Right now it should translate into results.
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On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote:
The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
Complete nonsense. No foreigner has had a successful GSL run yet, something every korean in the top 20 sometimes gets. They also get rekt consistently at katowice/wesg/shanghai etc.
Literally no foreigner has proven themselves to be a top 10 player. And none of them would be making blizzcon without their own WCS seeds.
Even Neeb, who is considered by everyone to be the foreigner king. What results has he had in the past year to indicate he's top 16 globally? He has a 20% winrate against koreans ffs
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On January 20 2018 09:59 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
I for one will abstain. Nope, this horse has not been beaten down or at least not the new one (earlier the fight was far from equal in termsa of opportunity). You see, foreign players really practice now, coz it is worth their time. Right now it should translate into results.
Are you familiar with the idiom "beat a dead horse?"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beat_a_dead_horse
That was what I was referring to in my post. The Korean/foreigner gap has been discussed to death a thousand times. Beating a dead horse will not make it move. Talking about Koreans vs foreigners will not have any more effect.
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EPT
