12:00 - Round of 18 Match #1 and Round of 18 Match #2 13:30 - Round of 16 Match #1 and Round of 16 Match #2 15:00 - Round of 16 Match #3 and Round of 16 Match #4 16:30 - Round of 16 Match #5 and Round of 16 Match #6 18:00 - Round of 16 Match #7 and Round of 16 Match #8
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
Well I know I'd let Classic slap me around for sure.
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
sOs and Zest are still the only players beating Classic right now. No Z or T is beating him until the patchimo
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
sOs and Zest are still the only players beating Classic right now. No Z or T is beating him (consistantly) until the patch
They beat him once. I'd still consider Classic favoured against them. I think PvZ is Classic's weakest match-up (if only by a little) and that soO or Dark stand a better chance against him than sOs or Zest, but his winrate is still 80% across the board post-4.0.
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
sOs and Zest are still the only players beating Classic right now. No Z or T is beating him (consistantly) until the patch
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
sOs and Zest are still the only players beating Classic right now. No Z or T is beating him (consistantly) until the patch
They beat him once. I'd still consider Classic favoured against them. I think PvZ is Classic's weakest match-up (if only by a little) and that soO or Dark stand a better chance against him than sOs or Zest, but his winrate is still 80% across the board post-4.0.
In Pyeongchang, Zest>sOs>Classic. In Katowice, Classic>sOs/Zest.
Given how hard Classic crushed Dark (4-1) and Maru (3-0) in an actual premier event, I don't see how anyone can favour a zerg or terran to beat him
This will be the first big tournament played after the patch that had qualifiers before the patch. Wonder what kind of effect it will have (probably not much considering the Korean/foreign ratio).
the specific arrangement of Intel and the IOC where IEM get to use Olympic logo but everyone still has to tiptoe around ever clarifying how this event actually relates to the PyeongChang Winter Olympics is fascinating and hilarious
On January 19 2018 04:06 Musicus wrote: Honestly, DNS might be the most dangerous opponent sOs could've gotten I think.
Really? Wouldn't Serral or Elazer be the most dangerous opponents just by virtue of being the stronger players of the foreign scene overall? I don't recall sOs showing a particular weakness to PvP currently, or DnS showing a particular proficiency in the match-up.
I just think that DnS being in Korea makes it so that he will be able to prepare for sOs the best. They (the players in the house) have many Korean friends like Patience and Stats who can give them sOs replays. DnS probably plays against sOs quite often himself on the ladder and in a mirror matchup a lot can happen..
Serral and Elazer won't know what hit them when they play sOs since they don't know the Korean meta as well.
But yeah overall Serral and Elazer are better, so maybe you are right. Still, I think sOs is a beast vs zerg, while Classic slapped sOs around earlier.
Classic's the best player in the world right now. He can slap around anyone he cares to.
sOs and Zest are still the only players beating Classic right now. No Z or T is beating him (consistantly) until the patch
They beat him once. I'd still consider Classic favoured against them. I think PvZ is Classic's weakest match-up (if only by a little) and that soO or Dark stand a better chance against him than sOs or Zest, but his winrate is still 80% across the board post-4.0.
In Pyeongchang, Zest>sOs>Classic. In Katowice, Classic>sOs/Zest.
Given how hard Classic crushed Dark (4-1) and Maru (3-0) in an actual premier event, I don't see how anyone can favour a zerg or terran to beat him
He seems to lose maps regularly in many of his series against Zerg, which isn't the case for his PvTs and PvPs (in fact if you exclude a bunch of foreign Zergs he farmed his win rate against Zerg is significantly worse than his other match-ups). And his series against Dark while quite a strong showing from him did involve an element of trickery which means I see Zerg doing ok against him in the future--game 1 he went for storm drop and lost to a roach hydra push, game 2 Dark went for the gold, and Classic hid two gates in Dark's main punishing him with a bunch of gateway stuff, game 3 was a adept/sentry/immortal push, and game 4 was won off mass gateway, and Classic sneaking units out of his main unseen with a warp prism.
I do think his PvZ is extremely strong, and he's probably favoured against any Zerg, but I do think that it is a tad less dominant than his other match-ups.
On January 19 2018 05:54 Waxangel wrote: the specific arrangement of Intel and the IOC where IEM get to use Olympic logo but everyone still has to tiptoe around ever clarifying how this event actually relates to the PyeongChang Winter Olympics is fascinating and hilarious
Does this mean that sc2 is first unofficial olympic game?
On January 19 2018 05:54 Waxangel wrote: the specific arrangement of Intel and the IOC where IEM get to use Olympic logo but everyone still has to tiptoe around ever clarifying how this event actually relates to the PyeongChang Winter Olympics is fascinating and hilarious
Does this mean that sc2 is first unofficial olympic game?
First unofficial olympic video game/esport?
Yes.
They had a show with Mike Morhaime, Incontrol and others about it.
So many of my favorite players this tournament, even stephano made it wow. and of the koreans i like only sOs, soo and hero more then zest. And of foreigners only snute is missing 8(.
Edit:
These types of european qualifiers divided by country or region are good for having different nationalities for the fans but kinda feel bad for some players, like in this case snute and uthermal having to each fight for 1 spot with serral and elazer, respectively. Happened to snute in wecg qualifier also: norway and fighting for one spot with finland, while denmark had 1, and russia and ucraine had 2 each...
Lol at stephano getting through the african qualifiers 8)
The only way I see a non sOs vs Zest finals is DnS actually upsetting sOs.. And given DnS recent performances in korea that wouldn't be such an upset (+ it's PvP).
Zest & sOs playing foreign zergs right after the Hydralisk nerf.. Can't see them lose, especially in a Bo5.
On January 19 2018 20:24 Snarosc wrote: The only way I see a non sOs vs Zest finals is DnS actually upsetting sOs.. And given DnS recent performances in korea that wouldn't be such an upset (+ it's PvP).
Zest & sOs playing foreign zergs right after the Hydralisk nerf.. Can't see them lose, especially in a Bo5.
Seems like a lot of people missed DnS' improvement. He is the #3 foreign Protoss in my book behind Neeb and Showtime, although that may be my German bias and I saw uThermal rank DnS above Showtime yesterday. He probably has his reasons.
I completely agree that sOs shouldn't lose to foreign Zergs and let's not even talk about the Terrans. And since he could not have been seeded against Zest, I think the strongest foreign Protoss at the event was the worst draw sOs could've gotten.
Of course sOs still has a 70% chance of winning in my book, but it's still the worst draw for him imo.
sOs is top 3 PvP player of all time. Assuming he takes the event seriously (which he normally doesn't unless it's GSL) there's no chance he loses to a protoss (outside Classic or Zest)
On January 19 2018 03:39 Lysergic1 wrote: Anyone want to bet against a Zest/SoS finals? If Zest practices his PvZ, that covers all 3 of the threats on his side of the bracket.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
On January 19 2018 03:39 Lysergic1 wrote: Anyone want to bet against a Zest/SoS finals? If Zest practices his PvZ, that covers all 3 of the threats on his side of the bracket.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Stephano 3-1 Zest calling it now. sOs still win the whole thing.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Zest has really a small chance getting past both Elazer and Serral. On the other side of the bracket SoS might also have a bumpy road to the final. I would say there is a realistic chance for a foreigner final.
No WCS points is a good thing, given the way the qualifiers were structured. "Olympic-style" events that invite a few competitors from each country can be entertaining for fans of that, but they're a pretty bad form of actual competition.
Just look at WESG last year. And the one this year. And this IEM.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Zest has really a small chance getting past both Elazer and Serral. On the other side of the bracket SoS might also have a bumpy road to the final. I would say there is a realistic chance for a foreigner final.
Depends on how far you stretch "realistic."
Zest and sOs aren't Korean Terrans, but even still, given Neeb's WCS performance last year against foreign Zergs, a Korean final is the most likely outcome.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Zest has really a small chance getting past both Elazer and Serral. On the other side of the bracket SoS might also have a bumpy road to the final. I would say there is a realistic chance for a foreigner final.
The continued delusion of TL is remarkable. Or did you fail to notice which country do Zest and sOs come from?
I am not trying to diss korea-west competition, I like to watch it, especially now that it is so rare, but the realistic chance of foreigners beating koreans in high-profile matches is still extremely slim.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Zest has really a small chance getting past both Elazer and Serral. On the other side of the bracket SoS might also have a bumpy road to the final. I would say there is a realistic chance for a foreigner final.
The continued delusion of TL is remarkable. Or did you fail to notice which country do Zest and sOs come from?
I am not trying to diss korea-west competition, I like to watch it, especially now that it is so rare, but the realistic chance of foreigners beating koreans in high-profile matches is still extremely slim.
To be fair Zest's PvZ looked like utter garbage against soO in his GSL group. If he plays like that again, Elazer or Serral beating him doesn't sound too unlikely.
On January 19 2018 03:39 Lysergic1 wrote: Anyone want to bet against a Zest/SoS finals? If Zest practices his PvZ, that covers all 3 of the threats on his side of the bracket.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Stephano 3-1 Zest calling it now. sOs still win the whole thing.
You are a believer Godphano will repay you that. :> GO STEPHANO <3
The continued delusion of TL is remarkable. Or did you fail to notice which country do Zest and sOs come from?
I am not trying to diss korea-west competition, I like to watch it, especially now that it is so rare, but the realistic chance of foreigners beating koreans in high-profile matches is still extremely slim.
Lets look at Elazer - Zest - historical results 7:8 map score. I would say Elazer's form is still improving while Zest's is declining. Aligulac prediction (2668) Elazer 0-0 Zest (2486) ----------------------------------------- 19.51% 3-0 0-3 7.41% 24.59% 3-1 1-3 12.89% 20.65% 3-2 2-3 14.95% ----------------------------------------- 64.75% 35.25%
Median outcome: Elazer 3-2 Zest[
with Serral it gets even better - historical score -1 in favour of Serral (2859) Serral 0-0 Zest (2486) ----------------------------------------- 28.76% 3-0 0-3 3.93% 29.33% 3-1 1-3 7.78% 19.94% 3-2 2-3 10.27% ----------------------------------------- 78.03% 21.97%
The continued delusion of TL is remarkable. Or did you fail to notice which country do Zest and sOs come from?
I am not trying to diss korea-west competition, I like to watch it, especially now that it is so rare, but the realistic chance of foreigners beating koreans in high-profile matches is still extremely slim.
Lets look at Elazer - Zest - historical results 7:8 map score. I would say Elazer's form is still improving while Zest's is declining. Aligulac prediction (2668) Elazer 0-0 Zest (2486) ----------------------------------------- 19.51% 3-0 0-3 7.41% 24.59% 3-1 1-3 12.89% 20.65% 3-2 2-3 14.95% ----------------------------------------- 64.75% 35.25%
Median outcome: Elazer 3-2 Zest[
with Serral it gets even better - historical score -1 in favour of Serral (2859) Serral 0-0 Zest (2486) ----------------------------------------- 28.76% 3-0 0-3 3.93% 29.33% 3-1 1-3 7.78% 19.94% 3-2 2-3 10.27% ----------------------------------------- 78.03% 21.97%
Median outcome: Serral 3-1 Zest[
Aligulac, aside from being notoriously unreliable for predicting h2h matches (because it uses career history instead of current form), is even more notoriously unreliable for comparing Koreans and foreigners (because Koreans play mostly Koreans and foreigners play mostly foreigners).
Serral, for instance, is currently ranked #1 on aligulac. Unless you think Serral is actually stronger than all the Koreans right now, you should probably hesitate before using aligulac in this case.
You may be right, you may be wrong, but aligulac predictions don't do much to show either one. If you're going to argue something, at least be convincing.
I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows Koreans are still better than foreigners--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset.
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset.
Even without the mismatches at HSC the important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better?
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset.
Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better?
Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results.
The very best Koreans still have an advantage which is slowly diminishing. However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea, they are most certainly within reach of top foreigners.
On January 20 2018 06:45 Kafka777 wrote: The very best Koreans still have an advantage which is slowly diminishing. However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea, they are most certainly within reach of top foreigners.
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
On January 19 2018 03:39 Lysergic1 wrote: Anyone want to bet against a Zest/SoS finals? If Zest practices his PvZ, that covers all 3 of the threats on his side of the bracket.
Good luck finding anyone that foolish. Also, what "threats"? This is gonna be as straightforward as we always knew right from when the format was announced. The bracket is rather irrelevant as long as Zest and $o$ are in separate halves.
Stephano 3-1 Zest calling it now. sOs still win the whole thing.
You are a believer Godphano will repay you that. :> GO STEPHANO <3
Not really actually I just really don't belive in Zest
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
Patch is planned for January 29th, and while this isn't set in stone Blizzard is almost certainly going to patch then.
Patch is planned for January 29th, and while this isn't set in stone Blizzard is almost certainly going to patch then
Implementing the patch on the 29 would be as wise as implementing new maps for Leipzig on monday. The closest reasonable date for patch is 8.02.
Say that to Blizzard not me. And to all the terrans that want the patch as soon as possible, and think that January 29th is too late. Like it or not I'm almost certain IEM PyeongChang will be on the next patch.
Isn't sOs in the top 8? I'd say he's close at the very least, and should be the favourite for the event by a considerable margin. Especially since it's post-patch which should make the most crucial match-up PvZ easier.
sOs playstyle is based on cheese, he is a clever player but if he does not surprise his opponent he may be shut down easily. As to the patch - I doubt they would implement it between Leipzig and PyeongChang.
I never understood why people on here doubt sOs so much in large events. His PvP isn't based on cheese, since 4.0 he has impressive wins over Classic, Dear, Hurricane and a few others without relying on such strategies. If dns wants to win then he'll have to be the one doing the cheese
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset.
Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better?
Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results.
If you look at only the large/important events, there is still an obvious gap between koreans and foreigners. IEM, WeSG, GSL etc are always korean dominated. Especially in longer series (bo5+) it becomes obvious. People believe foreigners are up there because they ignore the masses of results and only look at the upsets, and because online tournaments give misleading results
Since Kespa Cup, all global tournaments have been one sided. Katowice/Shangai, GSL, WeSG etc. The closest they got were some upsets at blizzcon from Elazer rushing Dark and Stats playing like shit. In bo3 matches you always get the occasional upset (like uthermal beating INnoVation for example). The same way that champs can lose Code A players occsionally, doesn't mean they are on the same level.
On January 20 2018 06:25 Kafka777 wrote: These results from reddit are manipulated to prove a misguided point as they leave out some events. For example the event that Neeb has won in Korea. They ignore some other HSC, they ignore bo 3. etc. This year we really should see the effect of separating WCS from Koreans. Neeb, Special, Elazer and Serral should be on the forefront of proving that.
Kespa Cup was before Blizzcon 2017 which was my starting point. the other HSC took place after I collected the data.
On January 20 2018 06:25 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On January 20 2018 06:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On January 20 2018 05:58 Kafka777 wrote: I agree with flaws Aligulac offers, however the point is these players already have a close or better historical result vs Zest. They are much younger players who are improving their skill while Zest top form is past and there is no way it will get better. This results from mechanical limitations associated with age. The argument of Opisska - that Koreans are unbeatable in important matches is also flawed as Koreans have lost quite a lot of important games even at Blizzcon.
Why do you keep on pulling out that worthless post where you chose parameters specifically to prove your point? Plus it's outdated. Everyone knows foreigners are still better than Korean--you don't have to carefully construct your statistics to include a bunch of top Koreans beating up C-tier foreigners.
I don't want to prove a point, the numbers speak for itself. dominating results in bo5 show koreans are more favored the longer the series goes. 59-3 doesn't happen randomly.
Bullshit. You chose that criterion specifically so it would include a bunch of huge mismatches at HSC--stuff like GuMiho beating Rotterdam. The numbers speak of nothing except you manipulating the dataset.
Even without the mismatches at HSC. The important games at Blizzcon, Katowice and WESG were all dominantly won by koreans. series winrate without HSC would be 1-19. Is that better?
Yeah the results do sound better when we exclude the 2/3 of the data you added just to pad your numbers. Though you should probably exclude WCA too. And include all events of similar prestige without the rather arbitrary bo5 requirement. And update the results.
If you look at only the large/important events, there is still an obvious gap between koreans and foreigners. IEM, WeSG, GSL etc are always korean dominated. Especially in longer series (bo5+) it becomes obvious. People believe foreigners are up there because they ignore the masses of results and only look at the upsets, and because online tournaments give misleading results
Since Kespa Cup, all global tournaments have been one sided. Katowice/Shangai, GSL, WeSG etc. The closest they got were some upsets at blizzcon from Elazer rushing Dark and Stats playing like shit. In bo3 matches you always get the occasional upset (like uthermal beating INnoVation for example). The same way that champs can lose Code A players occsionally, doesn't mean they are on the same level.
I'm not arguing that there isn't a significant gap. I'm saying you shouldn't use rigged data to support claims about the size of the gap.
The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
On January 20 2018 06:45 Kafka777 wrote: However Zest and sOs are not really top 8 in Korea.
They are both in GSL ro16 Zest may not be top 8 but sOs is one of the best players right now. Just look at his results in the qualifiers for this tourney and for katowice. He crushed his group in GSL ro32 and is rank 1 on kr ladder. What makes you think he is not a top8 player?
On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote: The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
This is just delusional. No foreigner is top 10 in the world.
On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote: The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
Disagree entirely. What does your top 10 look like? Because I think the top foreigners are significantly worse than the first string of Koreans (e.g Classic, INnoVation, herO, sOs, soO, Dark), and noticeably worse than the second string of Koreans (e.g GuMiho, Zest, Dear, Impact, ByuN, TY, Rogue, aLive, Stats). And I'm not being exhaustive while naming players.
Disagree entirely. What does your top 10 look like? Because I think the top foreigners are significantly worse than the first string of Koreans (e.g Classic, INnoVation, herO, sOs, soO, Dark), and noticeably worse than the second string of Koreans (e.g GuMiho, Zest, Dear, Impact, ByuN, TY, Rogue, aLive, Stats). And I'm not being exhaustive while naming players.
Well, Serral being top 1 in Korea ladder may be a clue, several other foreigners being easily in top 15 ladder may be another clue. Indeed you are right - this has to be proven in tournaments, however the players also practice, the trend is that the Koreans are going down. There are hundreds of games being played every day that indicate that Koreans may not perform as expected or at least the chances are equal.
This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
I for one will abstain.
Nope, this horse has not been beaten down or at least not the new one (earlier the fight was far from equal in termsa of opportunity). You see, foreign players really practice now, coz it is worth their time. Right now it should translate into results.
On January 20 2018 09:02 Kafka777 wrote: The gap is only between 3-4 top Korean players - best foreign players (3-4 of them) are within top 10 World players. Any result is possible, especially given bracket luck. However sOs or Zest will be lucky if they win PyeongChang and only if Blizzard gives them a patch advantage.
Complete nonsense. No foreigner has had a successful GSL run yet, something every korean in the top 20 sometimes gets. They also get rekt consistently at katowice/wesg/shanghai etc.
Literally no foreigner has proven themselves to be a top 10 player. And none of them would be making blizzcon without their own WCS seeds.
Even Neeb, who is considered by everyone to be the foreigner king. What results has he had in the past year to indicate he's top 16 globally? He has a 20% winrate against koreans ffs
This particular dead horse has been beaten to shards of bone, reanimated into a shambling zombie horror, killed with fire, buried, exhumed, resurrected, and beaten to death again.
I for one will abstain.
Nope, this horse has not been beaten down or at least not the new one (earlier the fight was far from equal in termsa of opportunity). You see, foreign players really practice now, coz it is worth their time. Right now it should translate into results.
Are you familiar with the idiom "beat a dead horse?"
That was what I was referring to in my post. The Korean/foreigner gap has been discussed to death a thousand times. Beating a dead horse will not make it move. Talking about Koreans vs foreigners will not have any more effect.
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
Tell us how you'll convince all the top foreigners to move to and live in Korea to participate in the GSL, before we discuss the alleged foreign strength.
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
Hey look, a prophet! Can I get the winning lotto numbers from you by any chance?
I wasn't even arguing against you, just pointing out that I'd heard too many Korean/Foreigner discussions already, none of which produced a clear answer, and I wasn't interested in hearing yet another that produced no clear answer either. Not an attack on foreigners, just saying I was tired of the forum wars. But apparently you took it personally or something.
Holding an opinion is one thing. Declaring that you and you alone know The Truth™ is asinine.
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
Lmao. I will happily burn my pc if a foreigner wins GSL
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
Lmao. I will happily burn my pc if a foreigner wins GSL
Tell us how you'll convince all the top foreigners to move to and live in Korea to participate in the GSL, before we discuss the alleged foreign strength.
I do not have to convince anyone. Season 1 is extremely inconvenient for foreign players as qualifiers take place during Christmas and qualifiers for other events. You will see top players during season 2 and 3. The new team house is already setup. Season 2 should be interesting as there are no important events between WESG and Austin - early March - June.
Hey look, a prophet! Can I get the winning lotto numbers from you by any chance?
I wasn't even arguing against you, just pointing out that I'd heard too many Korean/Foreigner discussions already, none of which produced a clear answer, and I wasn't interested in hearing yet another that produced no clear answer either. Not an attack on foreigners, just saying I was tired of the forum wars. But apparently you took it personally or something.
Holding an opinion is one thing. Declaring that you and you alone know The Truth™ is asinine.
Could it be possible I know something other people do not know? Like by knowing results of practice games between players? You know there are really rational explanations for some things and one does not have to be a "prophet".
Hey look, a prophet! Can I get the winning lotto numbers from you by any chance?
I wasn't even arguing against you, just pointing out that I'd heard too many Korean/Foreigner discussions already, none of which produced a clear answer, and I wasn't interested in hearing yet another that produced no clear answer either. Not an attack on foreigners, just saying I was tired of the forum wars. But apparently you took it personally or something.
Holding an opinion is one thing. Declaring that you and you alone know The Truth™ is asinine.
Could it be possible I know something other people do not know? Like by knowing results of practice games between players? You know there are really rational explanations for some things and one does not have to be a "prophet".
I've seen far too many hype trains crash to put any stock into ladder games or practice matches. I'll believe your prophecy of a foreigner winning GSL if and when I see it happen myself.
There is no rational explanation whatsoever for claiming that The Truth™ is only what you say it is, and that everyone else can only "believe." Thinking that way is textbook irrationality, as a matter of fact.
Unless you really are a prophet. In which case......lotto plz?
Does anyone know at venue will the event take place and how to get tickets?
It is coming near and due to olympics getting accomodation will not be easy. The earlier it'll be know where exactly it will be, the easier it'll be to get a place nearby. I haven't found any info on iem website
On January 21 2018 23:02 seopthi wrote: Does anyone know at venue will the event take place and how to get tickets?
It is coming near and due to olympics getting accomodation will not be easy. The earlier it'll be know where exactly it will be, the easier it'll be to get a place nearby. I haven't found any info on iem website
No idea. Probably best to ask them on Twitter or through email. Maybe Koreans have more info about this.
I've seen far too many hype trains crash to put any stock into ladder games or practice matches. I'll believe your prophecy of a foreigner winning GSL if and when I see it happen myself.
There is no rational explanation whatsoever for claiming that The Truth™ is only what you say it is, and that everyone else can only "believe." Thinking that way is textbook irrationality, as a matter of fact.
Unless you really are a prophet. In which case......lotto plz?
'm not predicting a foreigner winning GSL, there is no prophecy at all. But I am saying there is a chance this may happen as the skill level is too close to call. Furthermore, I guarantee more foreigners will try season 2 and 3.
Where is the evidence that the skill gap is too close to call it one way or another? Just check offline results of top foreigners vs koreans and put a reasonable timeframe and i am fairly certain you won't find one who looks like a championship contender for GSL. Is it theoretically still possible? Sure but not even really approaching "the skill level is too close to call"
I've seen far too many hype trains crash to put any stock into ladder games or practice matches. I'll believe your prophecy of a foreigner winning GSL if and when I see it happen myself.
There is no rational explanation whatsoever for claiming that The Truth™ is only what you say it is, and that everyone else can only "believe." Thinking that way is textbook irrationality, as a matter of fact.
Unless you really are a prophet. In which case......lotto plz?
'm not predicting a foreigner winning GSL, there is no prophecy at all. But I am saying there is a chance this may happen as the skill level is too close to call. Furthermore, I guarantee more foreigners will try season 2 and 3.
This is what you said bro, I didn't put any words into your mouth:
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
You don't say "there is a chance" here, you say Koreans WILL have problems. Then you go and call it the One And Only Truth™ as if it's holy writ and you are the prophet.
More foreigners trying to qualify in Seasons 2 and 3 is a given, seeing as the progamers have said so themselves.
I've seen far too many hype trains crash to put any stock into ladder games or practice matches. I'll believe your prophecy of a foreigner winning GSL if and when I see it happen myself.
There is no rational explanation whatsoever for claiming that The Truth™ is only what you say it is, and that everyone else can only "believe." Thinking that way is textbook irrationality, as a matter of fact.
Unless you really are a prophet. In which case......lotto plz?
In terms of evidence we are waiting for IEM PyeongChang.
I think you replied to the wrong post there.
@The_Red_Viper was the one asking for evidence, not me.
But if we are waiting for IEM Pyeongchang for evidence, why are you drawing conclusions weeks before IEM Pyeongchang even starts?
On January 22 2018 07:13 Kafka777 wrote: In terms of evidence we are waiting for IEM PyeongChang.
What possible evidence can that give us? We have two koreans there, we had a lot more data the past few months already. If no foreigner will win this tournament where they vastly outnumber the koreans, what chance do they even have for GSL? (and if i had to bet i would still bet on a korean winning for sure)
As i said, just check any top foreigner vs korean win% on aligulac for offline matches and set a timeframe which is reasonable. There won't be a single one who looks like a title contender, not even close.
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
You don't say "there is a chance" here, you say Koreans WILL have problems. Then you go and call it the One And Only Truth™ as if it's holy writ and you are the prophet.
More foreigners trying to qualify in Seasons 2 and 3 is a given, seeing as the progamers have said so themselves.
Which progamers said so where? I never said anything about one and only truth. I said the truth is that foreigners are strong - you ARE putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being a prophet - this is again YOUR claim. But believe me Koreans will have a problem.
What possible evidence can that give us? We have two koreans there, we had a lot more data the past few months already. If no foreigner will win this tournament where they vastly outnumber the koreans, what chance do they even have for GSL? (and if i had to bet i would still bet on a korean winning for sure)
Evidence can only be given thorugh tournament results. SO IEM PyeongChang and Katowice are the only reasonable indicators.
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
You don't say "there is a chance" here, you say Koreans WILL have problems. Then you go and call it the One And Only Truth™ as if it's holy writ and you are the prophet.
More foreigners trying to qualify in Seasons 2 and 3 is a given, seeing as the progamers have said so themselves.
Which progamers said so where? I never said anything about one and only truth. I said the truth is that foreigners are strong - you ARE putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being a prophet - this is again YOUR claim. But believe me Koreans will have a problem.
Noregret and Scarlett have mentioned more people coming on stream.
"You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong." ^^ sounds very much like a dogmatic truth right there, the kind spoken by a prophet to a congregation of fanatics.
On January 22 2018 07:20 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
Which progamers said so where? I never said anything about one and only truth. I said the truth is that foreigners are strong - you ARE putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being a prophet - this is again YOUR claim. But believe me Koreans will have a problem.
Noregret and Scarlett have mentioned more people coming on stream.
"You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong." ^^ sounds very much like a dogmatic truth right there, the kind spoken by a prophet to a congregation of fanatics.
"Believe me" you say.
Hmm.......
What you are saying is not an argument but rather an effort to manipulate the message. I am saying results will speak for themselves and we can count on our players.
What possible evidence can that give us? We have two koreans there, we had a lot more data the past few months already. If no foreigner will win this tournament where they vastly outnumber the koreans, what chance do they even have for GSL? (and if i had to bet i would still bet on a korean winning for sure)
Evidence can only be given thorugh tournament results. SO IEM PyeongChang and Katowice are the only reasonable indicators.
Sure i don't disagree with the notion that we need tournament results, but IEM PyeongChang in particular isn't terribly useful considering that we only have two koreans there. The weird thing is that you don't seem to care to look at past results which woould suggest you are wrong (i proposed it two times now), so i still don't see why you "believe" what you do
On January 22 2018 07:20 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
Which progamers said so where? I never said anything about one and only truth. I said the truth is that foreigners are strong - you ARE putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being a prophet - this is again YOUR claim. But believe me Koreans will have a problem.
Noregret and Scarlett have mentioned more people coming on stream.
"You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong." ^^ sounds very much like a dogmatic truth right there, the kind spoken by a prophet to a congregation of fanatics.
"Believe me" you say.
Hmm.......
What you are saying is not an argument but rather an effort to manipulate the message. I am saying results will speak for themselves and we can count on our players.
Nice backpedaling.
First you say:
On January 20 2018 11:03 Kafka777 wrote: Koreans will have a problem keeping their GSL titles this year. You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong.
Then when asked about evidence for your claim, you say:
On January 22 2018 07:13 Kafka777 wrote: In terms of evidence we are waiting for IEM PyeongChang.
What possible evidence can that give us? We have two koreans there, we had a lot more data the past few months already. If no foreigner will win this tournament where they vastly outnumber the koreans, what chance do they even have for GSL? (and if i had to bet i would still bet on a korean winning for sure)
Evidence can only be given thorugh tournament results. SO IEM PyeongChang and Katowice are the only reasonable indicators.
IEM Pyeongchang and Katowice are both tournaments that will not start for several weeks. If you truly believed this:
On January 22 2018 07:20 Kafka777 wrote: Show nested quote +
Which progamers said so where? I never said anything about one and only truth. I said the truth is that foreigners are strong - you ARE putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about being a prophet - this is again YOUR claim. But believe me Koreans will have a problem.
Noregret and Scarlett have mentioned more people coming on stream.
"You may believe what you want. The truth is foreigners are strong." ^^ sounds very much like a dogmatic truth right there, the kind spoken by a prophet to a congregation of fanatics.
"Believe me" you say.
Hmm.......
I am saying results will speak for themselves and we can count on our players.
then you would not have made your original claim in the first place, since we have no evidence from Pyeongchang and Katowice, and will not have any until they actually happen.
Then you have the gall to accuse me of trying to manipulate the message. Your hypocrisy is overwhelming, but I guess I shouldn't expect any better when your actual argument contradicts itself.
Come back after IEM Pyeongchang and Katowice are over, and then you might have some evidence to talk about.
Sure i don't disagree with the notion that we need tournament results, but IEM PyeongChang in particular isn't terribly useful considering that we only have two koreans there. The weird thing is that you don't seem to care to look at past results which woould suggest you are wrong (i proposed it two times now), so i still don't see why you "believe" what you do
How many Koreans would do? Two Koreans qualified. Its an indication. We will see results. To the seond question I will respond below
.
then you would not have made your original claim in the first place, since we have no evidence from Pyeongchang and Katowice, and will not have any until they actually happen.
Then you have the gall to accuse me of trying to manipulate the message. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.o
OMG. I wasn't proving anything earlier. Yes I'm claiming that foreigners have a better chance than ever to get better results against Koreans. The argument is that the foreign players are younger and have at least equal motivation right now. If you are 16-23 - or 24-30 the difference in mechanics and coherence is huge. There is no way older platyers will have a chance even with more experiance.
Sure i don't disagree with the notion that we need tournament results, but IEM PyeongChang in particular isn't terribly useful considering that we only have two koreans there. The weird thing is that you don't seem to care to look at past results which woould suggest you are wrong (i proposed it two times now), so i still don't see why you "believe" what you do
How many Koreans would do? Two Koreans qualified. Its an indication. We will see results. To the seond question I will respond below
then you would not have made your original claim in the first place, since we have no evidence from Pyeongchang and Katowice, and will not have any until they actually happen.
Then you have the gall to accuse me of trying to manipulate the message. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.o
OMG. I wasn't proving anything earlier. Yes I'm claiming that foreigners have a better chance than ever to get better results against Koreans. The argument is that the foreign players are younger and have at least equal motivation right now. If you are 16-23 - or 24-30 the difference in mechanics and coherence is huge. There is no way older platyers will have a chance even with more experiance.
Ok, youth over experience is actually a legitimate argument to make. Personally I disagree, but at least you aren't contradicting yourself there.
You really should've said so in the first post though.
Sure i don't disagree with the notion that we need tournament results, but IEM PyeongChang in particular isn't terribly useful considering that we only have two koreans there. The weird thing is that you don't seem to care to look at past results which woould suggest you are wrong (i proposed it two times now), so i still don't see why you "believe" what you do
How many Koreans would do? Two Koreans qualified. Its an indication. We will see results.
How is 2 qualified Koreans an indication of foreigners veing strong? 2 Koreans is the highest amount possible. "The IEM Season XII - PyeongChang - South Korea Qualifier allows 2 players to win travel, accommodation and entrance fully paid to IEM Season XII - PyeongChang."
Could you please clarify what you mean? I must have misinterpreted you.
Sure i don't disagree with the notion that we need tournament results, but IEM PyeongChang in particular isn't terribly useful considering that we only have two koreans there. The weird thing is that you don't seem to care to look at past results which woould suggest you are wrong (i proposed it two times now), so i still don't see why you "believe" what you do
How many Koreans would do? Two Koreans qualified. Its an indication. We will see results.
How is 2 qualified Koreans an indication of foreigners veing strong? 2 Koreans is the highest amount possible. "The IEM Season XII - PyeongChang - South Korea Qualifier allows 2 players to win travel, accommodation and entrance fully paid to IEM Season XII - PyeongChang."
Could you please clarify what you mean? I must have misinterpreted you.
I think he means that if the non-Koreans do well against the Koreans at IEM PyeongChang it will be an indicator of possible future success from non-Koreans against Koreans in other events (where they'll be more Koreans to compete against).
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/6QyZeQZ.jpg)
