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On June 10 2017 09:03 Lexender wrote:
I'm not even sure what he is trying to prove with this.
That he is better than Avilo? I don't think anyone doubts that.
That he strat is imba? Wouldn't that just gave the reason to Avilo?
That mech is not viable in TvZ? Same thing as above.
I mean, I can see it for the money if avilo accepts the challenge but not if hes trying to make a point.
It would proof that avilo isn't good and this is the reason he is losing TvZ. Not swarmhosts, not ravagers... but his gameplay.
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On June 10 2017 09:06 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 09:03 Lexender wrote:
I'm not even sure what he is trying to prove with this.
That he is better than Avilo? I don't think anyone doubts that.
That he strat is imba? Wouldn't that just gave the reason to Avilo?
That mech is not viable in TvZ? Same thing as above.
I mean, I can see it for the money if avilo accepts the challenge but not if hes trying to make a point. It would proof that avilo isn't good and this is the reason he is losing TvZ. Not swarmhosts, not ravagers... but his gameplay.
Even if Avilo loses those 5 games it doesn't mean he isn't good, it just means he lost 5 times in a row in a given day against TLO. He's a consistent low ranked Grandmaster playing a suboptimal style. Sure, he's not good enough to be near the actual pro scene, so what? TLO currently doesn't compare to the top pro's either does he? TLO is just another pro currently.
So when can you start blaming the game instead of yourself? When your top 10? top 20? top 50? And that also means that the current balance team has a useless opinion because they aren't top GM. Even David Kim who was a grandmaster with all races still has a useless opinion if he isn't as good as TLO if that is the ''proof'' we'll get out of him beating Avilo a couple of times.
This argument of getting gud before being allowed to say things about the game is asinine. I hope TLO is just acting like a clown for our entertainment or out of a grudge against Avilo.
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People don't take Avilo's position on balance seriously not solely because hes not tip top tier, but because of his childish attitude and insistence on the game revolving around his own personal play style.
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On June 10 2017 09:20 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 09:06 TaKeTV wrote:On June 10 2017 09:03 Lexender wrote:
I'm not even sure what he is trying to prove with this.
That he is better than Avilo? I don't think anyone doubts that.
That he strat is imba? Wouldn't that just gave the reason to Avilo?
That mech is not viable in TvZ? Same thing as above.
I mean, I can see it for the money if avilo accepts the challenge but not if hes trying to make a point. It would proof that avilo isn't good and this is the reason he is losing TvZ. Not swarmhosts, not ravagers... but his gameplay. Even if Avilo loses those 5 games it doesn't mean he isn't good, it just means he lost 5 times in a row in a given day against TLO. He's a consistent low ranked Grandmaster playing a suboptimal style. Sure, he's not good enough to be near the actual pro scene, so what? TLO currently doesn't compare to the top pro's either does he? TLO is just another pro currently. So when can you start blaming the game instead of yourself? When your top 10? top 20? top 50? And that also means that the current balance team has a useless opinion because they aren't top GM. Even David Kim who was a grandmaster with all races still has a useless opinion if he isn't as good as TLO if that is the ''proof'' we'll get out of him beating Avilo a couple of times. This argument of getting gud before being allowed to say things about the game is asinine. I hope TLO is just acting like a clown for our entertainment or out of a grudge against Avilo.
I never said you cant have a clue about balance when not being good at gameplay yourself. But avilo does not lose because he is playing mech. He is losing because he isn't playing it very good. He leaves himself vulnerable to too many options. A good proof of mech being not as strong but still viable would be GuMiHo who can mech on highest level and still win maps with it. Surely its not a s tyle that will be applyable to any map or any meta but its not that it cannot be played.
But there is nothing wrong with it. Not every style has to be 100% viable. TLO is top 16 pros in Europe and currently (while he is known for inconsistency) shows really good results too. Last result was qualifying for Valencia.
So my 2 cents on it: Avilo has a bad mindset (for me he is all fake anyways tbh) , doesn't work on his game. Acts like a clown and blames games/opponent while in reality he is the problem. I don't blame him for being worse than he thinks he is but it is not starcrafts fault.
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Im no avilo fan, by any means but TLO is gonna lose 100 bucks
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On June 10 2017 10:17 LongShot27 wrote:
Im no avilo fan, by any means but TLO is gonna lose 100 bucks
When there's a big gap in skill it really doesn't matter.. he's just gonna roll him with superior mechanics. TLO's unit selection still allows him to play a very strong macro oriented/timing style. He'll just a-move him with way more shit, simple as that.
But well.. maybe avilo can get lucky 1 game (or maybe he could prepare snipe builds on certain maps, i dont think he's that type of player tho).
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I for the life of me don't understand the opinion of people who say Avilo is a scrub because he's not Gumiho when it comes to mech. He's still a pretty good mech player (low GM guys for christ sake) regardless of his attitude. Sure he makes a lot of mistakes, but when you compare TLO to Dark or Soo we could say the same thing about him regardless of his status as top 16 EU.
Avilo's ''insistence'' on the game revoling around his own personal play style is both true and false.
He very clearly wants a lot of things gone and he hates a great many things. But the same goes for stuff that is integral to his own play style. He hates mass raven and liberators which he uses/used all the time.
Avilo just has many dreams for Starcraft 2. Unfortunately Blizzard seemingly doesn't care about making big changes in SC2 anymore and that's their right. Who's to say that they are competent enough to make SC2 even better than it already is or if they can actually spare the people to think about and subsequently implement (Design) changes.
It can however not be denied that the current SC2 design has some questionable choices. I mean Stats vs Classic featured pylon overcharge rushes and mass late game air armies. Are we all truly of the opinion that this is what we wanted Starcraft 2 to be? Will starcraft 2 ever be just this good? Is this good, good enough?
Avilo clearly disagrees and that's why he's so vocal. What Avilo wants is a game with diverse strategy and less gimmicky stuff like the invincible nydus worm and other hard to scout all-ins. What he wants is Starcraft 2 LOTV to be a better version of SC2 than Heart of the Swarm was. Other than that he wants his losses to be such, so that he loses he still gets the feeling he was beaten by a better player instead of someone who plays an easy race or strategy. I don't know how realistic that is however since some strategies are just easier to execute than others mechanically.
I felt compelled to write all this because it seems to me that everyone is too blinded to actually perceive Avilo's existence for what it is. (like Take's fake personality claim are you serious?) Avilo has streamed for 4 years or something and your telling me he has the willpower to act so butthurt for so long compared to actually being for real? I'm sure that next you'll tell me he organized his tournament so that his act would be even more believable? Like seriously what did he stand to gain directly by hosting that tournament? Absolutely nothing. He did it to ignite a spark in the development of Starcraft 2 as a game.
I hope you all learned something today and you can finally stop bringing yourselves down by misinterpreting Avilo the entire time. It's gotten old.
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On June 10 2017 10:39 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 10:17 LongShot27 wrote:
Im no avilo fan, by any means but TLO is gonna lose 100 bucks When there's a big gap in skill it really doesn't matter.. he's just gonna roll him with superior mechanics. TLO's unit selection still allows him to play a very strong macro oriented/timing style. He'll just a-move him with way more shit, simple as that. But well.. maybe avilo can get lucky 1 game (or maybe he could prepare snipe builds on certain maps, i dont think he's that type of player tho).
TLO can't break through a fortified base without ravagers/ultralisks/muta/broodlord/infestor/banelings/viper/swarm host.
There is literally no way he can win. You can mass repair 2 command centers infront of your base against mass ling roach while tanks shell away at that army. (turrets in bases to defend against overlord drops or use vikings)
There is no feasible way for TLO to win even if he goes 5 hatch first. And avilo lets him drone without killing any.
The reason lings & roaches & queens with timings work against mech is because a mech player is afraid of an actual transition into higher tech units that can break defensive lines. If you hyper prepare for all that bullshit it's an auto win.
Hell all he needs to do is go skyterran first and then transition into mass tanks.
This ''challenge'' is a joke.
This ''gap'' between skill is a lot don't get me wrong. But it's not bronze vs gold. It's grandmaster vs grandmaster. These people know Starcraft 2 .
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hes obviously gonna mix in nydus play to throw him off his game as well.. on top of doing normal roach timings and/or later timings.
and saying its grandmaster vs grandmaster isnt very accurate. it's a top foreigner grandmaster player (eu + na combined) vs a low NA grandmaster player.. big gap.
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On June 10 2017 11:06 TT1 wrote:
hes obviously gonna mix in nydus play to throw him off his game as well.. on top of doing normal roach timings and/or later timings.
and saying its grandmaster vs grandmaster isnt very accurate. it's a top foreigner grandmaster player (eu + na combined) vs a low NA grandmaster player.. big gap.
And how exactly can you throw in a nydus when your camping 2 bases with an air army? First off TLO wouldn't be able to get vision and second his nydus would just get build order countered (destroyed in seconds). later timings automatically don't work like I just told you since you can just wall off with command centers and repair those against lings and roaches. Early roach timings don't have a chance vs banshees.
Skyterran therefore counters everything TLO can do with just these units.
You clearly dont' understand when a gap between players is relevant and when it isn't. It's relevant when there's constant micro and constant battle that requires your attention in a lot of different places at once.
The game Avilo and TLO would play on these terms requires the multitasking a diamond player can bring to the table. Therefore the only thing that would be required is game knowledge. And even that is sparsely necessary because Avilo just needs to open air.
To put this in terms you'd understand. If there is no gain in micro managing your units all you have to do is A click. It doesn't matter if God almighty would be playing or if a bronze scrub would be playing. All that would need to be done is the same A click. A ling roach army vs a wall is just a single battle and it has the skillcap of a simple A click. There is no skill involved in this scenario so TLO gains nothing by being the better player.
The ''gap'' is therefore inconsequential. It would be consequential if it was bronze and gold because bronze people can't even macro properly. But grandmasters know how to spend their resources.
The fact that Byun for example is so good compared to others is because he can micro like a god while keeping his macro up. That's what seperates him from master players and most other grandmasters. Remove the need to micro all game long and you might aswell put any random masters player in his place.
It's that simple.
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no matter the amount of theorycrafting you want to do he still wont be able to overcome the skill gap. no offense but your perspective is that of a player who has never played a high level game of SC, it's extremely apparent.
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On June 10 2017 11:32 TT1 wrote:
no matter the amount of theorycrafting you want to do he still wont be able to overcome the skill gap. no offense but your perspective is that of a player who has never played a high level game of SC, it's extremely apparent.
Wow. Great argument. Okay, Good day.
I can do this too by the way, you seem like an idiot because you don't capitalize your sentences. it's extremely apparent.
Hilarious.
User was warned for this post
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On June 10 2017 11:28 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 11:06 TT1 wrote:
hes obviously gonna mix in nydus play to throw him off his game as well.. on top of doing normal roach timings and/or later timings.
and saying its grandmaster vs grandmaster isnt very accurate. it's a top foreigner grandmaster player (eu + na combined) vs a low NA grandmaster player.. big gap. a buncha stuff
You probably shouldn't talk down to one of the best, previous NA players in the scene so much.... I would wager his understanding of the rules set up here are much better than yours... no matter how much you type... xD
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On June 10 2017 11:47 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 11:32 TT1 wrote:
no matter the amount of theorycrafting you want to do he still wont be able to overcome the skill gap. no offense but your perspective is that of a player who has never played a high level game of SC, it's extremely apparent. Wow. Great argument. Okay, Good day. I can do this too by the way, you seem like an idiot because you don't capitalize your sentences. it's extremely apparent. Hilarious.
Yeah, see, it's not about 'argument' it's about understanding. Which you clearly have none of.
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It will never happen.
Avilo will never accept it. Because if he did and lost he couldn't con money out of people any more. So in the end intresting theory but it won't ever amount to anything
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On June 10 2017 11:59 showstealer1829 wrote:
It will never happen.
Avilo will never accept it. Because if he did and lost he couldn't con money out of people any more. So in the end intresting theory but it won't ever amount to anything
Please elaborate how he cons people out of money?
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On June 10 2017 11:47 Suchbalancemuchwow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 11:32 TT1 wrote:
no matter the amount of theorycrafting you want to do he still wont be able to overcome the skill gap. no offense but your perspective is that of a player who has never played a high level game of SC, it's extremely apparent. Wow. Great argument. Okay, Good day. I can do this too by the way, you seem like an idiot because you don't capitalize your sentences. it's extremely apparent. Hilarious. User was warned for this post
youre arguing over builds and over theories, i'm telling you that's irrelevant because of their skill level. of course whether you choose to believe that or not is entirely up to you, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
my argument is based on my personal experience as a player tho, what's your argument based on? clearly TLO is eager to play the match and he seems to be extremely confident, why do you think that is?
mechanics are still a big part of the game, especially when you're facing extremely high level players. you're underestimating that fact.
and fuck caps
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On June 10 2017 09:06 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2017 09:03 Lexender wrote:
I'm not even sure what he is trying to prove with this.
That he is better than Avilo? I don't think anyone doubts that.
That he strat is imba? Wouldn't that just gave the reason to Avilo?
That mech is not viable in TvZ? Same thing as above.
I mean, I can see it for the money if avilo accepts the challenge but not if hes trying to make a point. It would proof that avilo isn't good and this is the reason he is losing TvZ. Not swarmhosts, not ravagers... but his gameplay.
Savage. I really hope this happens. like every one is saying, this is good for the community... HYPE
TLO is a BAMF period.
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avilo is a 1 dimensional player so this would actually be a good case study :D, it's highly unlikely that he'll prepare a cheesy build to steal a game.
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Avilo should accept the challenge - I don't see how he can lose if he goes PF expand and turtles on 3-4 bases. All he needs is tanks + hellions behind PFs to hold the entire zerg swarm (no siege breaking units). Avilo can then safely tech to BCs + Ravens and use spellcaster energy to slowly whittle down TLOs army.
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On June 10 2017 13:38 Azzur wrote:
Avilo should accept the challenge - I don't see how he can lose if he goes PF expand and turtles on 3-4 bases. All he needs is tanks + hellions behind PFs to hold the entire zerg swarm (no siege breaking units). Avilo can then safely tech to BCs + Ravens and use spellcaster energy to slowly whittle down TLOs army.
the problem with that idea is that avilo would more likely than not go his usual suboptimal mech build where he has 1 tank and 4 hellions inside his main + 2-3 air units that will be nowhere near his main at 7 minutes when TLO's roaches show up, bust through his wall, kill all his ground units and get 15-20 SCV kills before avilo's air units can get back and kill the roaches.
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EPT
