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On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well  zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here.
you can use statistics to back any point of view really.
but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p
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Mute City2363 Posts
On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life.
Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit
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United States1799 Posts
On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit
Say hello to herO, the second player to win a GSL and SSL.
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Strong writing, good article, thanks for the content
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United States97276 Posts
On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit
Even the open seasons?
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On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p
Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s.
I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right  )
Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source
On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons?
Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable.
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Bisutopia19161 Posts
Puma was GOAT until he was nerfed.
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On May 03 2017 00:38 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +By the time BlizzCon rolled around, every single caster of note banded together to systematically erase all memory of StarCraft 2 prior to that moment. The agreed upon tagline was “highest skill era”. They had an unspoken contract to be as relentlessly optimistic as possible, and that involved praising all aspects of the game at a breathless pace. Since ByuN was the latest Terran champion he had to be the greatest Terran in the game’s history. Maru's micro against Protoss was irrelevant. GuMiho's drop harass was too boring to remember. TaeJa’s reactionary prowess was left unmentioned; beyond early ravager pushes, Terran didn’t even bother to defend anymore. The casters drilled this rhetoric into the minds of the community every chance they got. Whether it was a proper reaction to events was besides the point. It culminated in a Dada-esque scene where Tasteless and Artosis were transformed into gushing cheerleaders over ByuN target-firing slow banes off creep. Listening to their praise alone you’d think it was the epitome of TvZ fights. This is so damm right
Tbf we also saw him target-firing speedbanes on creep.
That's a bit more impressive
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On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Show nested quote +Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable.
considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio.
so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities"
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correct me if im wrong, but shouldnt writers at least try to hide their biases and write an objective article?
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On May 03 2017 03:17 LtCalley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable. considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio. so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities"
No not really. The lvl of competition is very important and it will only go down from now on. In 2014 it was probably the highest we ever had though, way higher than in 2011.
I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. He didn't even "dominate" the whole year considering his mediocre results after his first GSL win. Like i wouldn't even bring this up if he made ro8s or something (you onnly count championships anyway apparently) but he actually didn't even make it into ro16s. Let anyone else win a gsl and then do so badly afterwards and nobody would even dare to say these 6 months are part of "dominating the whole year", it's quite frankly absurd.
But yeah his later half was incredible but again, he had more chances to acually make his form count. If you still wanna paint that as a negative well it's your prerogative
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On May 03 2017 03:33 ZertoN wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but shouldnt writers at least try to hide their biases and write an objective article?
No, not necessarily, I think you'd agree articles based entirely on facts wouldn't always be the most interesting
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I don't recognise the view to which the article ascribes. There's a lot of words just to describe the natural instability of SC2. It is natural that only a few players win and some players lose, to be replaced by newer champions.
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Again a bit more on topic (though i think the discussion about Mvp fits the topic as well, kinda)
It's interesting that you mention Zest's looks as a deciding factor as well. I think this is fairly spot on and doesn't only apply to him. A lot of the big fan favorites are players who actually have the looks for it. At the same time other players who do fairly well but lack this factor are always in the shadows. Is it fair? No! But that's kinda how it works with fanbases (especially female fans often talk about this, not exclusively though tbh!)
I don't think narratives who exaggerate are all that bad in the grand scheme of things. ALmost nobody only ever looks at the cold data, we are emotional beings and that factors in a ton. So it's only natural that we embellish the feats of our most loved players to make them look even grander. Others who are fans of the other side will (most likely) argue against it but depending on the fanbase sizes one side will probably have a winner in the end. Some narratives will go down as "facts" while others will be forgotten because it doesn't stick. It makes the players and people in the scene appear grander than they really are (or less important like in the case of players like leenock, jjakji, etc). And there will be discussion, always these discussions...
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On May 03 2017 03:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 03:17 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable. considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio. so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities" No not really. The lvl of competition is very important and it will only go down from now on. In 2014 it was probably the highest we ever had though, way higher than in 2011. I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. He didn't even "dominate" the whole year considering his mediocre results after his first GSL win. Like i wouldn't even bring this up if he made ro8s or something (you onnly count championships anyway apparently) but he actually didn't even make it into ro16s. Let anyone else win a gsl and then do so badly afterwards and nobody would even dare to say these 6 months are part of "dominating the whole year", it's quite frankly absurd. But yeah his later half was incredible but again, he had more chances to acually make his form count. If you still wanna paint that as a negative well it's your prerogative
LOL love how you say things that aren't facts as facts, and then reference them to make a point. 2014 was the best how? because the kespa players had settled in and "everyone had figured out the game"? weren't there a lot more people playing in 2011 though, meaning there is more "COMPETITION"? so was the skill level better in 2014 than now? and the people who have been playing the game with extreme discipline since 2014....they haven't raised the bar for what we expect from pro players?
yes skill level is important i agree....but you can't just say that 2014 >2011...you tout so many of your opinions as facts.
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France12760 Posts
The part about ByuN is so false it's cringe :/.
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On May 03 2017 03:51 LtCalley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 03:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 03:17 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable. considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio. so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities" No not really. The lvl of competition is very important and it will only go down from now on. In 2014 it was probably the highest we ever had though, way higher than in 2011. I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. He didn't even "dominate" the whole year considering his mediocre results after his first GSL win. Like i wouldn't even bring this up if he made ro8s or something (you onnly count championships anyway apparently) but he actually didn't even make it into ro16s. Let anyone else win a gsl and then do so badly afterwards and nobody would even dare to say these 6 months are part of "dominating the whole year", it's quite frankly absurd. But yeah his later half was incredible but again, he had more chances to acually make his form count. If you still wanna paint that as a negative well it's your prerogative LOL love how you say things that aren't facts as facts, and then reference them to make a point. 2014 was the best how? because the kespa players had settled in and "everyone had figured out the game"? weren't there a lot more people playing in 2011 though, meaning there is more "COMPETITION"? so was the skill level better in 2014 than now? and the people who have been playing the game with extreme discipline since 2014....they haven't raised the bar for what we expect from pro players? yes skill level is important i agree....but you can't just say that 2014 >2011...you tout so many of your opinions as facts.
If we're just talking about how dominant a player was during a year the skill-level is irrelevant.
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On May 03 2017 03:51 LtCalley wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 03:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 03:17 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable. considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio. so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities" No not really. The lvl of competition is very important and it will only go down from now on. In 2014 it was probably the highest we ever had though, way higher than in 2011. I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. He didn't even "dominate" the whole year considering his mediocre results after his first GSL win. Like i wouldn't even bring this up if he made ro8s or something (you onnly count championships anyway apparently) but he actually didn't even make it into ro16s. Let anyone else win a gsl and then do so badly afterwards and nobody would even dare to say these 6 months are part of "dominating the whole year", it's quite frankly absurd. But yeah his later half was incredible but again, he had more chances to acually make his form count. If you still wanna paint that as a negative well it's your prerogative LOL love how you say things that aren't facts as facts, and then reference them to make a point. 2014 was the best how? because the kespa players had settled in and "everyone had figured out the game"? weren't there a lot more people playing in 2011 though, meaning there is more "COMPETITION"? so was the skill level better in 2014 than now? and the people who have been playing the game with extreme discipline since 2014....they haven't raised the bar for what we expect from pro players? yes skill level is important i agree....but you can't just say that 2014 >2011...you tout so many of your opinions as facts.
I mean it doesn't even matter too much what year(s) exactly where the highest point of sc2. I think it is still fair to say that the kespa switch was incredibly important for the competitiveness. We had a new talent pool of players + the infrastructure to make use of it. Then proleague alone made sure that every player competing in it basically had to be on top of his gameplay at all times (realistically that's not possible, but the motivation surely was there for most players)
Maybe 2011 had more players (not sure) but you just need to read interviews of players comparing kespa team houses to team houses before. Pretty big difference.
I am not just saying that the skill lvl increased (it always does, at least strategy wise; we usually don't lose that knowledge) but that the competition was more fierce simply because the scene got more professional, by a lot.
I think we should stop here though, this doesn't lead anywhere
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 03 2017 03:33 ZertoN wrote:
correct me if im wrong, but shouldnt writers at least try to hide their biases and write an objective article?
In this type of article, absolutely not. It is very clearly an opinionated piece, and does not try to hide that fact. Blatant lying or egregiously twisting facts would be something else, but arguing in favor of a strongly held opinion makes for interesting reading. I'm sure mizenhauer can respond himself if there is anything you think is actually false (in such a way that it cannot be argued), but beyond that is is all up in the air.
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On May 03 2017 04:06 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 03:51 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 03:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 03:17 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 02:18 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 02:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 03 2017 00:54 LtCalley wrote:
you can't even COMPARE zest's 2014 to MVP's 2011, i'm sorry you just can't
6 premier titles vs. 3, 12 ro4 finishes vs. 6, MVP literally had TWICE, YES TWICE the results that Zest did. Say what you want to about the difference in frequency of premier tournaments (namely gsl) and you only further reinforce my point =/
zest's 2014 rivaling MVP's 2011 is a stretch, to say the LEAST Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Why do you only look at actual championships? What about all the mediocre results i just listed? WCG is not that impressive anyway, let's be real for a moment. You are saying extra tournaments is also a chance to do badly, well yes but it is a chance. If you are actually really at the top of your gameplay you would rather have a lot tournaments to play in and not be scared to do worse in the others. Fact is that Zest did well in every single tournament besides the blizzcon where he had to play the later crowned champion in the first round. At every other tournament he made at least ro8. Mvp did way worse, especially in the 6 months i talked about in the comment you quoted. Zest didn't win as much a) because there weren't that many tournaments and b) it was the most competitive era in sc2 period. On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Well code s titles then I think it is worthwhile to make a distinction here. you can use statistics to back any point of view really. but a major point you're missing here...which is GLARING... is the amount of tournaments MVP was in during 2011 as opposed to Zest's 2014. find out how many premier tournaments both players actually entered in, then come back to me :-p Wait what? How did i miss that? It's a positive for Mvp, he had more chances. You simply try to paint it as a negative, which is hilarious. I wonder how many players who are at the peak of their gameplay would tell you that they want less tournaments to enter. Fact is that Mvp's results in the first half of 2011 aren't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. You even stated 2nd place in code a as if that would be an amazign result, when in reality it means that you didn't even play in code s. I somewhat blame stuchiu for this though, his constant Mvp circlejerk did build this narrative. Like when people read over and over again that Mvp was this god they will believe it in the end (that's kinda on topic of this article right ) Specifically you notice that a run of dominance from a great player usually runs for about 6 months to an year, except for Mvp whose dominance lasted the first 2 years of play. source Yeah no not two years, in fact more like these 6 months mentioned in the same statement. On May 03 2017 02:53 Shellshock wrote:On May 03 2017 02:20 munch wrote:On May 03 2017 02:04 Olli wrote:On May 03 2017 01:58 LtCalley wrote:On May 03 2017 01:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] Zest's worst performance in 2014 was at blizzcon where he had to play life (who won the whole thing) in the first round and lost 2-3 If we exclude that it was a ro8 at an IEM and a ro8 in GSL. Now let's look at Mvp's 2011: After winning GSL in January he failed in GSL March with a ro24 finish, in GSL May he only played code a (got second there), lost in the ro32 in a GSL super tournament and in GSL July he failed again in the ro 24. So from february till august he won that world championship gsl (which was a joke to begin with) and at the rest of the tournaments he did really badly. That were about 6 months of mediocre results until he stepped it up at the end of the year and actually had great results. If anyone else had the bad results of Mvp after winning that GSL the "reign" would have stopped in these 6 months for sure. No Mvp didn't dominate 2011, he dominated from august till the end of the year. About the article: Well you are right that narratives trump actual analysis a lot. But this is simply the product of fanculture and happens everywhere. It's easier to say player x is bad (in the context of the very best) even though he plays in code s (almost) every season. Like you mention leenock here. The truth is that he will probably never be in another GSL final, i am sure he trains hard and is really good in general. But in korea he is still one of the weaker players if we only look at the korean scene. I think it's fine to build narratives this way overall, it shouldn't be too extreme (like with Byun and him being the best micro player ever, yadayada) though maybe i am just a little bit biased here and this is ok as well zest winning his one gsl in 2014 is about the same as mvp winning code S twice in 2011. sorry, but a single kespa cup victory is not equivalent to winning blizzon 2011, MLG anaheim, and WCG 2011. Two GSLs according to how the community counts them for Mvp and Life. Let's be honest, calling any non-Code S tournament a GSL is a bit bullshit Even the open seasons? Nah because there you at least had a really hard format to overcome as well. So while it is different, it's still somewhat comparable. considering the decreasing number of tournaments in starcraft 2 every year, by your logic, in 2025 when there is only one premier starcraft 2 tournament the whole year, the winner of that tournament will be the best player ever because he had a 1:1 premier tournament entry to championship ratio. so yes in that light, it's a negative for MVP to have had more "opportunities" No not really. The lvl of competition is very important and it will only go down from now on. In 2014 it was probably the highest we ever had though, way higher than in 2011. I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem. He didn't even "dominate" the whole year considering his mediocre results after his first GSL win. Like i wouldn't even bring this up if he made ro8s or something (you onnly count championships anyway apparently) but he actually didn't even make it into ro16s. Let anyone else win a gsl and then do so badly afterwards and nobody would even dare to say these 6 months are part of "dominating the whole year", it's quite frankly absurd. But yeah his later half was incredible but again, he had more chances to acually make his form count. If you still wanna paint that as a negative well it's your prerogative LOL love how you say things that aren't facts as facts, and then reference them to make a point. 2014 was the best how? because the kespa players had settled in and "everyone had figured out the game"? weren't there a lot more people playing in 2011 though, meaning there is more "COMPETITION"? so was the skill level better in 2014 than now? and the people who have been playing the game with extreme discipline since 2014....they haven't raised the bar for what we expect from pro players? yes skill level is important i agree....but you can't just say that 2014 >2011...you tout so many of your opinions as facts. If we're just talking about how dominant a player was during a year the skill-level is irrelevant.
i never said it was important regarding player dominance. the discussion switched when he responded with "I am not even arguing that Zest should be GOAT, but his 2014 was pretty impressive and Mvp's 2011 wasn't nearly as impressive as people make it seem." in regards to this, i agree with him that skill level is important (assessing impressiveness of zest's 2014 vs MVP's 2011)
please read before making a reply like this
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