EPTOn May 05 2017 06:34 Wintex wrote:
bomber
bomber
LAW
The Myth of Expectations - Page 5
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
LAW | ||
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ClaudeSc2
United States73 Posts
On May 04 2017 03:32 NonY wrote: Or the people praising Taeja actually watched the games and didn't just check the results. You can look at tournaments, matches and individual games, and tally results and calculate strength of opponent. But you can also watch a player play and see how good they are. In sports it's known as "the eye test" and it refers to, all data aside, how good does a player look when you watch them play. There's nothing wrong with having attempts at objective arguments based on results (futile as they may be) but you can't dismiss the opinions of people who have been watching/playing SC for over a decade just because they're not attempting to play your game. People who watched all these great players play in the context of their eras are allowed to just assert an opinion. If a consensus forms out of all those opinions, then it deserves some respect. Hey man, I don't disagree with him being a top player of all time, but when I see TL writers making GOAT lists that put Taeja higher than INnoVation...I have to disagree and think they're not being as objective as they should. Taeja has shown amazing play, and that he can compete and beat the best in the world. He was Life's bane at a lot of foreign tournaments in HotS. But I have a feeling that if all of those foreign tournaments had GSL player pools he would not have 11 premier titles. And in my post I'm basically using your same train of logic and applying it to Byun's play during 2017 and saying he's still playing like a champion. | ||
Waxangel
United States32955 Posts
On May 05 2017 02:54 207aicila wrote: I guess no one remembers that cringy forced meme of "elfi is god" which was shitposted even by staff members.  you're illiterate if that's what you got from this article | ||
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Waxangel
United States32955 Posts
On May 03 2017 20:11 Locutos wrote: Interesting. But a lot of the stereotypes are fed from the classifications given by TL writers, like the Bomber Law, Royal roaders and so on... I appreciate the POV of this column. That said, the only thing I regret is not being even MORE melodramatic | ||
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bulletbill
Canada33 Posts
look at marus results last year, and no one was like ah hes terrible now, yeah he lost but they where really close games. zest losses are to put it lightly not close. and i think it comes down to gameplay over results but thats just my 2 cents. | ||
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lestye
United States4133 Posts
On May 03 2017 11:00 Oalfredo77 wrote: I think SC2 has an issue on how unstable "superstars" are. I don't know much about BW but it seems that big stars were dominant for long periods of time and became stable referents (Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, Stork...). Viewers of any sport (Esport or traditional) want a sense of understanding and stability about which ones are "the best, which ones are "rising" and which ones are "going down". So i don't blame caster/writters for doing that, in a sense we all want that. In SC2 Esport all of this happens so fast that expectations last a lot longer that reality. This is what I'm most looking forward post-LOTV. Although a lot of those amazing storylines will never have parity with SC2. We're not really going to sit through of years of zerg domination without a kneejerk patch, for example. | ||
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Di4s
8 Posts
but good material :D | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2207 Posts
On May 05 2017 02:51 Fango wrote: Neeb's one would be easier. I don't think he ever peaked and then dropped off in skill, but expectations were blown out of proportion for him cause of KeSPA Cup hype. To any casual you might think that if he can win a KR major then he is a top 5 player or something, which would make sense. Neeb was (and still is maybe?) the best disruptor player in the world. It should be no suprise that he won a cup playing disruptor vs disruptor every game (against opponents which barely knew how to use them properly). The problem came about because people thought he would naturally dominate as hard in other matchups and metas. That's where expectations come in. But he's still a top foreigner, heck I was favour him in a bo7 vs Trap any day. I see people relating Starcraft to games like tennis, I mean yes it's 1v1 but it can never be as consistant. New maps/metas/patches/expansions change everything about how a game is played (never played tennis idk if theres a deeper meta to it). Neeb is an example of how good you can be at a specific meta or matchup. Why did the Koreans play Disrupters if they knew neeb was better and that wasn't the Korean meta going into the tournament? | ||
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DSh1
292 Posts
1.) Neeb wasn't that well known. So maybe they didn't realize neeb was so good with disruptors. So they underestimated him. 2.) Maybe Neeb played in a way that makes the opponent likely to go disruptors? 3.) When you make a decision in SC2 I bet most of the time it is an automated response and that's not easy to change. It's not like you actually have time to calm down and think during a game. You have to be decisive. So I would say they didn't think a lot? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11759 Posts
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
MKP's micro was flawless. Period. Not even byun has that level of skill. It was sincerely jaw-dropping. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8987 Posts
On May 03 2017 11:05 JackONeill wrote: Also, what we have to notice is that the level of analysis by casters dropped hugely since WOL. I've seen Dark rolling over every single terran during HOTS with banes/roaches/corruptors because everyone was going biomine because marine/tanks sucked against mutas, and i've never heard a single caster mention that. Only that "Dark is the best TvZ in the world !". And with LOTV, it's even worse. I've heard casters say countless time that gateball can't beat bio with medivacs and stim, and act baffled when a protoss player did, praising him in a general way with no explanation whatsoever. More specifically, i've never heard any caster talk about the huge influence of guardian shield, the 1 native armor on the adept the marauder nerf. How bio vs gateball fights usually revolved around guardian shield heavily lowering marauder attacks, or how some terran players manually position the marauders in front against adept heavy compositions to protect the marines. I've seen Maru destroy adept/sentries army with that, but without the casters even mentionning it. It'd be like WOL casters commentating bio/vikings vs gate/colossi fight without explaning mentionning how did the vikings perform against the colossi. I guess it's because casters don't really play the game as much as before? Or that they're less interested in the game? I dunno, and maybe i missed some good analysis during casts, but to conclude i'd say players are praised mainly on their execution and not the other components of their play, and that both those aspects and the execution are often not analysed at all, with casters only chanting the "Byun/Zest/Dark/etc is sooooo gooooood". The state of the game, the players, everything is dumbed down to being "sooo goood". The caster now are way better and play the game more then at any era, we use to have people like Husky, Kaelaris, Apollo or even HOTS Day 9 who barelly played the game. Now outside of Tastless, all the caster are High Master or GM at the game and played a hell of a lot of games. In Austin all the caster were GM level player (outside of maybe Maynard I don't really now his level). | ||
Olli
Austria24416 Posts
On May 05 2017 22:45 Nakajin wrote: The caster now are way better and play the game more then at any era, we use to have people like Husky, Kaelaris, Apollo or even HOTS Day 9 who barelly played the game. Now outside of Tastless, all the caster are High Master or GM at the game and played a hell of a lot of games. In Austin all the caster were GM level player (outside of maybe Maynard I don't really now his level). Apollo was GM or at least top masters with random, and the best caster SC2 ever had in my book. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
On May 02 2017 23:40 Railgan wrote: Was kind of curious about that one as well... If it is about Byun target firing Banes of creep... they are usually non speed banes and due to the Hotkey Change "all" you have to do to target fire the banes in lotv is hold down A and hover over them and they will die. So you no longer need to a click them and be scared of missing one. But kind of weird to write such a statement without offering a closing to it. Do you mean using a keyboard capable of "Rapid Fire" hotkeying a la JaKaTak? | ||
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alexanderzero
United States659 Posts
Starcraft as a game (Both Brood War and SC2 I feel) has varying periods in time in the professional tournament scene where sometimes strategy is more important, and sometimes mechanics are more important. Sometimes a single style is extremely powerful until it gets 'solved' by the community at large, which is my impression of Byun when he was winning everything. But I agree that the SC community has this weird fascination with picking the "best" player. In my opinion there's only one "best" player ever, and that is Flash in Brood War. This is because of his actual win-rate, tournaments results, and the fact that he has more or less stayed on top for several years without being dethroned. | ||
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Blargh
United States2093 Posts
Byun is still #1 on TLPD. Consider that. | ||
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RKC
2847 Posts
In SC2, this happens because their true skill lies in finding an element in the gameplay or meta that suits their play-style (whether macro, micro, game-sense, etc.), and 'abusing' it to a point where others cannot reach. And the reason why their highs and lows fluctuates so much is due to the constant patch and meta changes in SC2. (Sorry, I wish I can explain this better, but I've only had my first coffee of the morning  ) | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia976 Posts
On May 02 2017 23:40 Railgan wrote: Was kind of curious about that one as well... If it is about Byun target firing Banes of creep... they are usually non speed banes and due to the Hotkey Change "all" you have to do to target fire the banes in lotv is hold down A and hover over them and they will die. So you no longer need to a click them and be scared of missing one. But kind of weird to write such a statement without offering a closing to it. I dont think any pros use this. Plz tell me who does if you know of anyone. I assume you're talking about rapid fire? | ||
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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
On May 05 2017 22:57 Olli wrote: Apollo was GM or at least top masters with random, and the best caster SC2 ever had in my book. I mean ToD once casted WCS while still in Premier league, so did HuK iirc. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15828 Posts
On May 06 2017 10:09 RKC wrote: I wonder if players like Inno, Zest, and even sOs can be classed as 'impact' players. In sports, they're players who, on their best day, are unstoppable. But on other days, they look mortal, a shade of their true self. So they can go through periods of mediocrity, yet constantly hit peaks of absolute dominance. In SC2, this happens because their true skill lies in finding an element in the gameplay or meta that suits their play-style (whether macro, micro, game-sense, etc.), and 'abusing' it to a point where others cannot reach. And the reason why their highs and lows fluctuates so much is due to the constant patch and meta changes in SC2. (Sorry, I wish I can explain this better, but I've only had my first coffee of the morning )Agree with this, some people say the reason why nobody has been able to dominate sc2 the same way Flash/Jaedong etc have dominated bw is because the game is more "volatile" but I don't agree with this. I mean we have seen periods where a player was extremely dominant in a specific meta (PartinG 2015 pvt, Zest early 2016 pvt, Inno 2013 tvz, soO zvz) but they aren't able to keep it up because the meta always changes and the things that made them dominate aren't as important anymore. Think about it: Inno was extremely dominant in 2013 then mines got nerfed - he couldn't adapt and slumped. Zest dominated 2014 then among other changes widow mines got rebuffed + added shield damage - he couldn't adapt and slumped. Life dominated late 2014/early 2015 then Swarmhosts got nerfed - he couldn't adapt and slumped. I believe if we wouldn't have those constant balance changes the players at the top would be much more stable. I don't even think Flash would have been able to become a bonjwa in bw if the game would be patched like sc2. + Show Spoiler + And if BL/ Infestor wouldn't have been nerfed every gsl final would be Sniper vs RorO  | ||
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