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+1 the rain anecdote is quite on target
when blizzard created sc they went to a new type of game: 3 races
and
they added an option to go further, and make the game have unlimited potential for gaming.
Random players (most of them i think) feel that they love the game in a way "regular" players don't.. and we like it that way.
That little tingle when you go to press s v or e <3
the feeling of urgency i get from trying to remember what i "currently" want to do with the particular race i got
the little extra (more than "glhf") interaction i get is a real boon
the array allowed to play, the sheer infinite sandbox you find yourself in
all those and so much more make me love being random.
The mmr is like Christian described it (or it was when i still played, maybe it has been changed recently?!)
with the "randomness" of race i usually
got loads of z matches (while that is statistically my personal best race) .. sometimes like 7 times in a row
normal amount of t
and very little of p
which was the opposite of what i needed since i'm average on t and bad at p
i hope the choice/+mmr stuff is better (and i didn't notice it or left before it was "fixed") or gets improved
because
that is a real "random player" issue and that deserves real efforts from blizz
the separate mmr would be cool / make me want to ladder again (sorry for now i think it is all bull and if i go back to ladder i will get 60% z 30% t and 10% p games AND play against my highest mmr (the z) players, i won't get lower skilled opponents when i get pro toss.. mmmm f ck meh now that i opened my big mouth i'll have to try so as to make sure  ahahahahhaha)
to close, i really don't get how forcing you to scout is such a burden?
i would think choosing to play only one of the races is the burden, the shoot myself in the foot decision, but again i agree i don't get it 
again: i totally agree with the Thieving Magpie that no displaying of the races (forcing all players to always scout)
would make sc/sc2 a better game!
#+ Show Spoiler +bring back black fog too please
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Dont understand the argument of "playing random is harder because they have to know 9 matchups therefore the system should give them an advantage". They choose to play random, they do it because they find it more fun, therefore why force the rest of the players to have an unfair disadvantage agaisnt them, what if I decide to play Toss and Terran? I should mail blizzard that I`m practising 6 matchups and I need 2/3 of the advantage of a random player?
Just show the race the dice has picked up during loading time and both players will have time to figure out the opener according to the map and the opposing race.
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I always 13/12 against Random players. Half of them lie about their race or reply with the standard " scout  ", which on a 4 player map as Zerg is almost suicide should your opponent also be Zerg. So I'd rather all in and be over with it in 5 mins than arrive with my drone scout while 8 Lings run past me.
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The problem with playing against random is that their mmr is the same as yours so you start the game with a disadvantage simply because you do not know what race their are and they do. On average they have the same skill with the races that offset any skill deficit that you may get from having to play all three races because their mmr is the same as yours hence they have the same skill with all 3 races on average that you do with your one.
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Here's the thing about the rain anecdote, as well as Thieving Magpie's position: I get that you might have a sort of philosophical attachment to the bit of chaos it introduces. And I understand why would that be appealing, to force people to think and react rather than play a build order.
The problem is, it flies counter to at least a couple design philosophies that Blizzard has otherwise maintained pretty consistently. The first is that the player who plays better should, as often as possible, be the player with an advantage. Random advantage creates an advantage for one player that exists from the start of the game, that they didn't have to play any better or worse to obtain. Even if that advantage is small or mostly psychological (e.g. it doesn't actually hurt them much economically to do a suboptimal opening, but they're thrown off by all the timings being different), it still runs counter to that design principle.
The other principle that TM's idea also violates is that the ladder experience should mirror pro play. It creates a nice feedback loop where frustrated players can go watch pros for inspiration, and viewers excited by something they saw can go try it themselves, so that both viewer counts and player counts are promoted. But wherever ladder play differs from pro play, that isn't possible.
So if someone's frustrated with how to beat phoenix/adept they can study pro games to try to beat it. But if they're frustrated with knowing how to stay safe against every possible cheese a random player can throw as any of the races they might have rolled, that's not really an option. Probably that player goes on TL and creates a thread much like this one.
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I think the player who plays better still wins, hence the fact that we don't see top level random players. This might mean the better player in a matchup, I recently matched a random player twice in a row, beat his Protoss and lost to his Terran (incidentally he cheesed as toss). I don't know if he's a better player overall than I am since these two random ladder encounters amount to such a tiny data set, but I don't think he won or lost because he was playing random.
I also disagree that ladder play should exactly mirror pro play. While there is a professional level which plays a large part in the scene Starcraft is, at its core, a game that is played recreationally. There is a difference between professional and casual competition. I just don't see any convincing arguments that the ability to play random in its current form unbalances the game in any significant way.
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On April 15 2017 01:07 Arghmyliver wrote:
I think the player who plays better still wins, hence the fact that we don't see top level random players. This might mean the better player in a matchup, I recently matched a random player twice in a row, beat his Protoss and lost to his Terran (incidentally he cheesed as toss). I don't know if he's a better player overall than I am since these two random ladder encounters amount to such a tiny data set, but I don't think he won or lost because he was playing random.
The point is not that you can't win by playing sufficiently better. It's that the advantage a random player starts with is not a result of superior play. That his opponent can overcome that advantage with superior play does not change that fact.
I also disagree that ladder play should exactly mirror pro play. While there is a professional level which plays a large part in the scene Starcraft is, at its core, a game that is played recreationally. There is a difference between professional and casual competition. I just don't see any convincing arguments that the ability to play random in its current form unbalances the game in any significant way.
What does this mirroring have to do with "unbalancing the game"? Regardless of whether you think professional play is primary or secondary to recreational play, the benefits of mirroring are clear. This is why Blizzard puts ladder and WCS on the same map pool, and why they introduced automated tournaments.
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On April 14 2017 23:06 SwiftRH wrote:
The problem with playing against random is that their mmr is the same as yours so you start the game with a disadvantage simply because you do not know what race their are and they do. On average they have the same skill with the races that offset any skill deficit that you may get from having to play all three races because their mmr is the same as yours hence they have the same skill with all 3 races on average that you do with your one.
But - you know - that same MMR includes their initial information advantage. And to be equally redundant as you are, they got their MMR playing with that advantage.
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On April 15 2017 03:02 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2017 23:06 SwiftRH wrote:
The problem with playing against random is that their mmr is the same as yours so you start the game with a disadvantage simply because you do not know what race their are and they do. On average they have the same skill with the races that offset any skill deficit that you may get from having to play all three races because their mmr is the same as yours hence they have the same skill with all 3 races on average that you do with your one. But - you know - that same MMR includes their initial information advantage. And to be equally redundant as you are, they got their MMR playing with that advantage.
Yes, people in this thread completely forget about MMR.
The fact is, random isn't harder for your opponent "because he has to know 3 races". It isn't harder for you because of the cheese factor. It's just business as usual as far as winrates are concerned. Unless for some reason you lose all your vs random games and do way better against TPZ (which I doubt could happen, we don't play vs random that often).
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Can someone please post a replay where they lost a game due to the enemy player choosing random rather than their own mistakes?
I'll wait...
Also what is everyones deal with "knowing" how to open? I dont see randoms complaining that they dont know their own race before the game starts so they can't have a game plan for it.
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I'm equally bad with all races, I also think all three races are fun to play, so random kind of suits me.
I haven't played much LotV, but in HotS I seemed to win more playing random than I did when I chose to focus on one race.
I also had more fun, go figure.
I don't know if that is because of the "hidden information" and the fact that I pretty much always open super greedy, or if people just get tilted and play worse against randoms.
Personally I wouldn't mind random showing what race you got at the loading screen, I tell people my race if they ask me anyways.
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The advantage random players get by their opponents not knowing their race is way over-exaggerated in this thread. There are safe openers and cheeses (if you don't have a heart) you can do with each race that are good enough as a base to use in every match up. Once you scout, you just tailor that opener to the race they are.
The summation of the complaints I see here is that people are sad they can't use a cutesy timing attack for a specific match up because they don't know what the match up is in time to do it properly. Sorry... that's not a legitimate complaint. Random players generally only know a few of the match ups as well as you know yours. Their disadvantage is about on par, or potentially worse than your pseudo-disadvantage. If you play a solid game, you will win regardless.
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On April 18 2017 19:12 Ouija wrote:
Can someone please post a replay where they lost a game due to the enemy player choosing random rather than their own mistakes?
I'll wait...
Also what is everyones deal with "knowing" how to open? I dont see randoms complaining that they dont know their own race before the game starts so they can't have a game plan for it.
Your first question is meaningless. Every game has mistakes on both sides, even at the pro level. That is irrelevant to whether random advantage should exist.
Your second point is just being dense. The random player finds out his race at the start and can open how he wants from there; his opponent doesn't find out his race at the opening. If the random player wanted to know his race before the match he could race pick, but his opponent has no option to not face random players.
The non-equivalence could not be more obvious.
On April 18 2017 21:26 esReveR wrote:
The advantage random players get by their opponents not knowing their race is way over-exaggerated in this thread. There are safe openers and cheeses (if you don't have a heart) you can do with each race that are good enough as a base to use in every match up. Once you scout, you just tailor that opener to the race they are.
The summation of the complaints I see here is that people are sad they can't use a cutesy timing attack for a specific match up because they don't know what the match up is in time to do it properly. Sorry... that's not a legitimate complaint. Random players generally only know a few of the match ups as well as you know yours. Their disadvantage is about on par, or potentially worse than your pseudo-disadvantage. If you play a solid game, you will win regardless. Three things:
1) whether random advantage is big or small is a separate question from whether it should exist. I think most people would acknowledge the advantage is small and mostly psychological with occasional exceptions (e.g. WoL PvZ).
2) What makes the complaint illegitimate? If one player can't use his strategy for a given matchup because of random advantage, that would seem to contradict your first point that the advantage isn't very significant. If random advantage is messing up people's game like that, it's a perfectly legitimate argument for why it shouldn't exist.
3) none of your points really answer the question: why should you start with more information than your opponent? What entitles you to that advantage?
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i've only been playing team games lately, sometimes as random or against random, and if i'm not mistaken there's a list of players at the top with their respective races (think it's the part about sharing control). I was thinking to check at home if this was possible in 1v1 and if it worked as i remember in 2v2 but if any of you can confirm/check that in the meanwhile let us, or me, know
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On April 18 2017 22:05 SeeDs.pt wrote:i've only been playing team games lately, sometimes as random or against random, and if i'm not mistaken there's a list of players at the top with their respective races (think it's the part about sharing control). I was thinking to check at home if this was possible in 1v1 and if it worked as i remember in 2v2 but if any of you can confirm/check that in the meanwhile let us, or me, know
I mean, on the replay it'll display information.
But on the loading screen and on the player list screen, it'll list everyone out who selected 'Random' as 'Random'
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What would probably be best is have the options
Race selection: (Zerg, Protoss, Terran, Random)
Race revealed to opponents loading (y/n)
Your race is revealed to opponents only if all have clicked yes. (regardless of whether you picked random or not)
[mmr could try and pair yes+yes and no+no as long as it didn't add too much time otherwise it just pairs a yes and no]
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I find it weird that non-pros think random is advantaged while every pro that randoms gets crushed.
I guess pros need to Learn from the non-pros how to play this game.
Or maybe we should just have blizzard remove visibility of who you play against across all matches. Just replace the loading screen with lore/map info/tournament dates.
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On April 19 2017 03:00 Lssfs234 wrote:
There's a difference - albeit evidently a difference too subtle for some - between being at an advantage (lucking out with build order advantage e.g.) and being at an unreasonable advantage (one player arbitrarily having more information available to them at the start of the game) and being overall advantaged (more likely to win).
Of course, what one person deems unreasonable other might not.
I find that the "subjectivity" of these advantages has already been demonstrated by the few people who chose to play random competitively. TLO would have been way above his western peers during WoL and not switched to Zerg had the Random advantage been that significant, vs the disadvantage of having to master 3 races and all 9 matchups.
Meanwhile, it sounds like most people who complain about losing to randoms just don't prepare a specific build vs Randoms, or even just a build that they use on short maps/any build that isn't just a straight fast expand. It should be 'similar' to how you'd prepare for your worst matchup
Being at a build order disadvantage (FE vs Safe expo) is arguably negligible. I learned from several Dark VoDs that he favours going G/P/H vs T half the time despite the econ disadvantage because losing to blind reaper rushes isn't worth the money.
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EPT
