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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 20 2017 09:11 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:
I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. It's not just the first probe (other than the fact scouting with your first probe does change your build order) if it's PvR you have to wall at your main. If you scout a zerg and then what? if they open with seedlings you basically can't do a standard 19 nexus as you have no wall and no way of making a wall against a flood. If you heavily invest in gateways then you slow your tech. If it's terran you actually want that pylon back at your nexus not at your ramp to defend against drops If it's protoss even on a pylon scout by the time your probe gets to your opponents base your gas timing is already off. It's there too late and your gases should have gone down already So YES it does make a difference. Should it be removed? I'm personally not fussed just pretend there's 4 races in this game and the 4th requires you to play a bit differently. My personal issue with randoms is they have strong races and weak ones. So if they get their strong race they will win otherwise you roll them. At least that has been my experience just makes the games not fun.
And random players were confused why I, Protoss, am leaving the games with them  Next time I(if it ever comes) I'll link them this response.
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On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I?
The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care.
The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this.
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On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:
The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care.
i like the increase in the unknown element in the very early game. and i like playing all 3 races. and its fun when both players are random.
i'd love to see someone put together a year long "All Random" league with huge prize money. if someone did that i'd support it. i think BTTV has done a few "All Random" 1 day tournies.
On April 12 2017 23:01 Darkhorse wrote:
I've played a decent bit of random on the ladder and I always immediately tell my opponent what race I got. But as Cascade already mentioned most of them don't believe me and scout me anyway (totally understandable, I've never done this but I've had people I played against tell me they were something they weren't which I also don't mind I find it pretty amusing).
when i play Random i sometimes lie about what race i am.
the first casualty in any video game war is the truth!
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On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this.
That's why it should be
1-select your race (including random)
2-select whether your race will be hidden or revealed to your opponent on loading screen
So If I play Zerg but don't want my opponent to know it, then I select
Zerg,
Hidden
.. and my opponent sees a ? for my race
(and I will only get matched with other "Hidden" players*)
If I play random and I like to know the matchup I am getting into, then I select
Random
Reveal
..and my opponent sees whatever my race will be
(and I will only get matched with other "Reveal" players*)
*If matchmaking is taking a long time it may prompt me to also allow matching with the other...in which case it will depend where I am matched whether it will be hidden or revealed.
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On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this.
That's some awfully dense logic there.
1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?)
2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad?
At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved.
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On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:
At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied.
LOL, you're taking yourself and this game too seriously.
if anything Random players should be given more advantages because there are zero random players at the top level of play.
my best race is Zerg. i can't imagine a world where my Random game will be better than my Zerg game no matter how much in game lying i do when i'm Random. clearly i'm not playing Random to get higher up on the ladder.
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There is absolutely no reason random needs to be viable at the top level of play. Nor have I ever suggested that random is advantaged such that you can easily raise your MMR by picking random. What I've said is that it's problematic because it starts one side with an advantage that they didn't have to do anything to earn, justified only by the fact that because they're matched based on their MMR and their MMR includes games as their main race, they'll probably play worse if they rolled an off-race.
But if they play worse, they're supposed to lose. That's how a competitive game is supposed to function. And if they're being matched against players who are much better them by the matchmaking system, that seems like a problem with the matchmaking system. Funnily enough, this all works out perfectly if you just have them match by their race MMR according to whatever race they rolled, and then let their opponent know from the start what race they are.
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the parts of the game behind the fog of war are determined by the game developer. currently, the race of random players is shrouded by the fog of war until the player is scouted. i like it that way. i like it from both perspectives as a person who plays as Random and as a single Race who comes upon opponents using the Random race.
your meandering rationalizations have not changed my view of what i think is fun. and i'm having fun with the Random race both opposing it and playing as Random.
so just leave it as is.
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Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game.
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Lots of feedback and all. I get both sides, the mmr reflecting which race you get would be really amazing, and fair to the random players and probably encourage a lot more random playing. The reason I feel that race should be shown in loading screen is simple, and you either agree or do not. As z it really doesn't matter much if I play vs a random, I scout before any effect to game.( I play all 3 races but not as random, lmao) The real issue I find is for the protoss and the wall, and initial building placements. If you wall and random rolls terran, tank pushes your ramp, have fun when your gates go down... Just little things like that, I get some people need the extra advantage of no one knowing there race...??? But that's kind of a sad stand point. If you are outskilled to that point, the better player will likely win. And to people saying dont be lazy scout.. I think most of us always do, especially when you are qued vs random. I know personally, I want to have fun, fair games. I play high diamond/masters and its more fun when I play vs people who are equal or better. So even if I were to say hey im terran or toss/ zerg, they will likely not believe and have to scout, roll dice on building placement and so on. So is the advantage being over stated....? Maybe... Is it being under valued as well....? maybe... Is there a way where it were fair to everyone and we would all agree and get along as such............
.................
...
....... Maybe not.... But did like the mmr per race that would be great, I would prob play random always (but would want the other to know what race I am  )
Can't believe how civil everyone was :D
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On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game.
But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage.
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I play random in 1v1 from time to time. I never reveal my race simply because as a random player I am allready at a slight disadvantage. I have to be just as good with every race as my opponent has to be with just one race.
I also don't believe in the meme that random players are at an advantage if they roll their main race. My main race (Zerg) is just as strong as my off-race Terran and Protoss. I don't know if this applies to others but for me every race is the same skill wise. Your BO's may vary from race to race but your macro skill stabilizes with any race regardless.
Part of the fun with random is that it really is random. and since most of the competitive players are in GM & Masters (Where Random is almost nonexistant) I fail to see the problem.
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How then are you at a disadvantage, if you are just as equal skilled in all 3 races? This is the point I was making, that I also play all 3 races, at pretty much the same level, and if my opponent does not know my race, I have the advantage. This is only, of course my opinion.
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On May 05 2017 08:10 lunareaping wrote:
How then are you at a disadvantage, if you are just as equal skilled in all 3 races?.
You'd be a lot better at one race if you concentrated all of your practice on it instead of spreading it out over all 3.
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A lot of these issues disappear if no race was revealed for any player at the loading screen.
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On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved.
Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party).
I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it.
On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage.
That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game.
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On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game.
I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense.
it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything.
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On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything.
Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure.
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On May 06 2017 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything. Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure.
I mean, that works & makes sense to me
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On May 06 2017 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything. Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure.
People's main problem with this has been mentioned several times. Have you responded and I missed it?
Here, let's go around one more time. I want to be able to watch top level games from pro players, see a build that makes me say "oo, wow, that's cool," and then boot up the client and try to work out that build myself to use on ladder. Obscuring everyone's race picks does solve the random advantage problem, but it removes a feature I consider much more critical. Put it this way: I seem to care about changing the current random system more than most people on this website, and even I would rather keep the current broken system than fuck up the possibility for anybody to do race-specific builds on ladder.
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