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On May 07 2017 00:23 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2017 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything. Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure. People's main problem with this has been mentioned several times. Have you responded and I missed it? Here, let's go around one more time. I want to be able to watch top level games from pro players, see a build that makes me say "oo, wow, that's cool," and then boot up the client and try to work out that build myself to use on ladder. Obscuring everyone's race picks does solve the random advantage problem, but it removes a feature I consider much more critical. Put it this way: I seem to care about changing the current random system more than most people on this website, and even I would rather keep the current broken system than fuck up the possibility for anybody to do race-specific builds on ladder.
Right now people master specific races because, once your opponent knows what race you are, they go on autopilot.
How different would the metagame become if they don't see that? What if they don't know Innovation picked protoss when facing SOO until he already walled off his expo with a forge first FE? Only to be wrecked by the fact that Soo had actually gone for a terran reaper strat?
Safe builds become the norm as the timing pushes gets pushed back for standard macro play. Risky maneuvers and race specific maneuvers starts being normalized depending on how well you know your opponent instead of just making builds on the blind.
It would be fantastic to watch.
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On April 12 2017 22:57 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2017 22:52 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I personally would rather no race be visible at any point until you scout the opponent. I think it would lead to more standardized builds and more interesting lines of play. sounds like a cheeser's paradise to me
it would make cheese the worst thing you can do...were you being sarcastic?
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On May 07 2017 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 00:23 ChristianS wrote:On May 06 2017 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:On April 20 2017 06:45 starkiller123 wrote:
Is it really that big of an issue? The amount of random players is so low that i really don't think it matters I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything. Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure. People's main problem with this has been mentioned several times. Have you responded and I missed it? Here, let's go around one more time. I want to be able to watch top level games from pro players, see a build that makes me say "oo, wow, that's cool," and then boot up the client and try to work out that build myself to use on ladder. Obscuring everyone's race picks does solve the random advantage problem, but it removes a feature I consider much more critical. Put it this way: I seem to care about changing the current random system more than most people on this website, and even I would rather keep the current broken system than fuck up the possibility for anybody to do race-specific builds on ladder. Right now people master specific races because, once your opponent knows what race you are, they go on autopilot. How different would the metagame become if they don't see that? What if they don't know Innovation picked protoss when facing SOO until he already walled off his expo with a forge first FE? Only to be wrecked by the fact that Soo had actually gone for a terran reaper strat? Safe builds become the norm as the timing pushes gets pushed back for standard macro play. Risky maneuvers and race specific maneuvers starts being normalized depending on how well you know your opponent instead of just making builds on the blind. It would be fantastic to watch.
But presumably with this change, off-racing would have the same detriments that playing random does at the pro level. In which case pros would all still just play one race and race-specific builds would be popular in pro play, because on the off-chance they off-raced, you just need to survive until the lategame and they'll suck and you'll beat them.
You seriously don't think this would just result in pros playing by the old rules 99% of the time, while ladder players have to figure out their own builds because they're playing a different game than pros?
If you don't want people to be able to copy builds from pros then that's fine, but don't pretend that's not what would happen.
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As a random player, I actually wouldn't care much about it. After I quitted this game, I rarely play sc2 nowadays but mostly watch pro games, and always play with random now and tell my opponent my race if they asked. Since I am a macro style random player in just master league level, (worse at cheesing) I would have fun in anytime even my race is revealed from the beginning.
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On May 07 2017 12:04 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 06:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 07 2017 00:23 ChristianS wrote:On May 06 2017 03:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On May 06 2017 03:22 reneg wrote:On May 05 2017 22:42 ZenithM wrote:On May 05 2017 04:04 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 02:38 ZenithM wrote:On April 20 2017 07:27 ChristianS wrote:On April 20 2017 07:17 phodacbiet wrote:
[quote]
I agree. Seriously, is it that hard to scout with your first worker? If you don't want to scout, just open a safe build e.g. pool first, wall off, dont skip msc, etc etc. Keep in mind, most Random players are best with 1 race, and are mediocre with the 2 other races relative to the MMR you're at, so the non-random player is at an advantage aside from not knowing the random player's starting race for the first minute. 1) If it's bad design, the fact that it doesn't come up that often isn't a reason not to change it. 2) The question at hand is not what the best strategic response to not knowing your opponent's race. It's whether that should be the case in the first place. My opponent doesn't have to scout with first worker just to know what matchup he's in; why should I? The question also is: do random players like playing with their race hidden? Is it a feature, with the deception element being there as intended by Blizzard? Or do random players just play random because they like playing all 3 races all the time? There is probably a fraction of players who like the misinformation aspect, and another who doesn't care. The fact that Blizzard didn't make the simple UI change (displaying the random race at loading screen) tells me that they do intend for that "deception" element to be there. In the end if that's their design choice then it's likely meant to be played this way and it's a bit useless to complain about this. That's some awfully dense logic there. 1) If random players like having their race hidden, it should stay (what about all of the other players in the game? do their opinions matter too?) 2) You're guessing that Blizzard intended it, so since it's intended design, there's no reason to criticize it or have a conversation about whether it's good or bad? At least it should be apparent that the random player should have the option to reveal their race if they choose. Because of assholes like JimmyJRaynor here, even if neither player in the game wants random advantage to be there, they don't have that option because the random player's opponent has no way to know if he lied. Of course I'd go a step further and say that random advantage has no place in a competitive game anyway, but you don't need to follow me there to acknowledge that the current system could clearly be improved. Why are you talking about logic? People like to throw the big L word when they want to look smart on the Internet. I'm just discussing the fact that it might be intended by Blizzard, just because of the fun provided by the deception element (fun mainly for the random player, of course). In this thread, people are mainly taking the side of the opponent, discussing if it's annoying or not, disruptive or not, balanced or not and all that. But in the end, on the other side, random players might find their fun in the very fact that their race is hidden, that's all I was trying to say. A lot of elements in competitive games are fun for one side, but annoying for the other side (one might even say it's fun BECAUSE it's annoying to the other party). I do think you'd see a LOT less people picking random if it was displayed at loading screen. Maybe to the point where the option is completely irrelevant. The existence of matchmaking, combined to the fact that nearly no one at the top end of the ladder mains Random, makes it a non-issue balance-wise, so it's not really urgent for Blizzard to deal with it. You might get annoyed the few games you have to play vs randoms, but you'll be annoyed the same way you're annoyed by proxies or perceived OP units or something. If random was truly game-breaking, you'd see a lot more people picking it. On May 05 2017 05:14 ChristianS wrote:On May 05 2017 04:36 kyllinghest wrote:
Its a part of the game. Most people will state which race they are, and if they dont you can just play a safe build and aim for a long game. But as established already, you can't trust that anyway because people like JimmyJRaynor lie to get an advantage. That's part of the game. Is it good or bad, I don't know. But it's balanced (through MMR), and fun for at least one person in the game. I know, a huge portion of this game is playing with incomplete/imperfect information. To be upset that your opponent would lie to you or that you wouldn't know what you're going up against when they actively select a random race just doesn't make sense. it's not like they selected zerg (obscura) to keep you from knowing they chose Z or something. They have a chance of getting anything. Seems like the best middle ground is just to make all race picks obscure. People's main problem with this has been mentioned several times. Have you responded and I missed it? Here, let's go around one more time. I want to be able to watch top level games from pro players, see a build that makes me say "oo, wow, that's cool," and then boot up the client and try to work out that build myself to use on ladder. Obscuring everyone's race picks does solve the random advantage problem, but it removes a feature I consider much more critical. Put it this way: I seem to care about changing the current random system more than most people on this website, and even I would rather keep the current broken system than fuck up the possibility for anybody to do race-specific builds on ladder. Right now people master specific races because, once your opponent knows what race you are, they go on autopilot. How different would the metagame become if they don't see that? What if they don't know Innovation picked protoss when facing SOO until he already walled off his expo with a forge first FE? Only to be wrecked by the fact that Soo had actually gone for a terran reaper strat? Safe builds become the norm as the timing pushes gets pushed back for standard macro play. Risky maneuvers and race specific maneuvers starts being normalized depending on how well you know your opponent instead of just making builds on the blind. It would be fantastic to watch. But presumably with this change, off-racing would have the same detriments that playing random does at the pro level. In which case pros would all still just play one race and race-specific builds would be popular in pro play, because on the off-chance they off-raced, you just need to survive until the lategame and they'll suck and you'll beat them. You seriously don't think this would just result in pros playing by the old rules 99% of the time, while ladder players have to figure out their own builds because they're playing a different game than pros? If you don't want people to be able to copy builds from pros then that's fine, but don't pretend that's not what would happen.
What would happen is that pros will have a main race and an off race, and the off race will change up over time as people "predict" what they are. The top playing pros will switch things up often enough to punish people from being too race specific in their buuilds.
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But as long as their main race is better it would almost always be a mistake to off-race. It's the same reason all the Random players stopped playing Random - you'll just suck in the lategame if your off-race cheese fails. Why would Innovation off-race as Protoss just to FFE, when FFE is a long game-focused strat and he's just gonna get crushed in the lategame because he's not as good with Protoss?
Sure, you might get the occasional off-race cheese. In what normally would be a TvT, one player might throw a proxy oracle to get a free win. But that would be such a huge risk that most builds could still safely be matchup-focused, while ladder never could, meaning you still couldn't copy most pro builds. You could say "oh that's cool," but you couldn't go try it out yourself.
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On May 07 2017 14:51 ChristianS wrote:
But as long as their main race is better it would almost always be a mistake to off-race. It's the same reason all the Random players stopped playing Random - you'll just suck in the lategame if your off-race cheese fails. Why would Innovation off-race as Protoss just to FFE, when FFE is a long game-focused strat and he's just gonna get crushed in the lategame because he's not as good with Protoss?
Sure, you might get the occasional off-race cheese. In what normally would be a TvT, one player might throw a proxy oracle to get a free win. But that would be such a huge risk that most builds could still safely be matchup-focused, while ladder never could, meaning you still couldn't copy most pro builds. You could say "oh that's cool," but you couldn't go try it out yourself.
Yeah, we completely disagree on what the expectations are. That's perfectly fine, you're mistaken, but that's my analysis talking.
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Personally, I leave games against random opponents, but I do enjoy playing it occasionally, mostly because the fun i have in SC is picking a solid build and trying to maximise it, not fluttering around and being late on everything just cuz my opponent was random, or losing to their offrace in a macro game because i delayed shit for too long.
I don't tell my race, although I play macro builds, but unfortunately most random players lack lategame mechanics for whatever reason and choose to all in every game instead, or just do the weirdest shit that's impossible to scout perfectly because it's just so weird.
pity ..
all in all, if you can play macro with all races than well done, but that is ussually not the case with random players.
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I dislike the uneven advantage given to the random player.
Do not show my race to the random player and we are square ...
Or someone suggested, show the race random is going to get while loading ...
Peace
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i see, first was removing 4 player maps from ladder, and now this...
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On April 12 2017 14:24 Cascade wrote:
Let me sum up this common points in this discussion.
1) Playing random is harder than sticking to one race.
2) The opponent not knowing which race you are is an advantage for the random player.
3) 1) is a stronger effect than 2). Proof: none of the top players play random.
4) Some random players want the advantage in 2). Other random players don't, and tell their race at the start. Opponents, understandably, don't always trust them though.
5) Many players are frustrated by playing vs random, as they don't know how to open. It seems like especially toss struggle on 4 player maps, where it can be coin-flippy when choosing opening BO.
excellent summary. i like to lie at the start about my race for added fun. occasionally, i beat guys i got no business beating doing that.
i like things the way they are. i play 60% Random and 40% Terran.
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On April 13 2017 00:40 BSJ_ACOLYTE wrote:
Entitlement? I for one do not feel entitled to anything. I'm just trying to reason (an optimistic endavour, I know).
I cannot even remember the last time I played against someone who choose Random. Granted I only play casually these days but still.
wow good experience so far. Thanks!
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I imagine that if someone wanted to randomly choose a race and then show it in the loading screen they probably would already do that. Considering they don't, I must conclude they have some reason for wanting to choose a random race and hide it from their opponent. I can't see any justification for demanding that their game be changed on our behalf. StarCraft has always been a game with a random race option, and I feel like the randoms have 17 years of precedence set in their favor, and it would be unreasonable to ask them to change on our behalf.
And for those arguing on the advantage/disadvantage, I find that a pretty meaningless distinction. Whatever advantage/disadvantage exists from playing random will already be baked into their MMR and should mean nothing to their opponents.
Just let the random players be. There aren't that many. And I highly doubt it's having any meaningful effect on your experience, but changing it could drastically change their experience.
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EPT
