EPTbeing maybe wronged isn't a license to go superfly TNT dynamite guns of the navarone on everyone
2017 WCS Challenger North America - Ruling - Page 7
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
being maybe wronged isn't a license to go superfly TNT dynamite guns of the navarone on everyone | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 31 2017 00:06 DeepElemBlues wrote: in any competition screaming at the officials and basically everybody under the sun over your opinion that the officials missed a penalty, to the point where you get a penalty for abusing the officials and everybody else under the sun is always going to be you're in the wrong. even if the officials did miss the other side committing a penalty. being maybe wronged isn't a license to go superfly TNT dynamite guns of the navarone on everyone I can't agree more. However, it feels a bit more heavy handed when the legitimate player gets the ban while the hacker who compromises the integrity of fair competition gets a ban and still gets to roam on b.net hacking away. I feel like starting with a game loss in his next bo3 is the equivalent to a penalty rather than ejected from the qualifier completely. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:43 ReachTheSky wrote: 1)I'm not going to allow you to bait me into turning this discussion into game bashing, You said it not me. (You might want to avoid saying stuff like like that, its frowned upon around here) 2)Developers do focus heavily on one race at a time for extended periods of time. 3)Avilo gets an extremely high amount of stream sniper trolls that always have their units at the right place at the right time with out any intel even though avilo switches his strategy & execution up consistently. You'd know this if you'd watched his stream recently at least. I don't blame if you if you don't but at least be valid here if you are gonna bring stuff like that up. I don't blame the guy for calling it as he sees it. He doesn't call everyone hackers. Also, it sounds like you've never beat a hacker not it has anything to do with the discussion at hand. 4)Developers took the longest time to gain an actual understanding of the balance of the game. For awhile they just waited till players got tired of something to make a change or just took certain players' word for balance until they gain a full understanding. Who wouldn't complain about it? 5)It is very easy to badmouth casters/administrations. Every single player does it at some point or another. Especially if there is not a thorough system in place. If administrations had acted swiftly/unbias in the past perhaps Avilo and several other players/viewers might have a little more faith. In a way, they've created a beast. Who wouldn't want to bad mouth casters/administrators after these experiences. Thanks for coming up with unreasonable/irrelevant points in an attempt to discredit Avilo's contributions to the community. After all, he offers more than you do. Nothing offends me, I have a thick layer of skin, bud. In terms of being a fan of Avilo, I already said on page 1 or 2 that I can't stand him. That doesn't mean I can't side with him on an issue if I believe there to be unjust bias or bad decision making on an administrative level. Nothing everything is as black and white as you think. I think there is some comprehension difficulty on your part. I did not say the game is crap, I pointed out that that is what Avilo often claims. You claimed he promotes the game. Those points above, are what he spews on his channel, and in his 'private' (but public) channels. That is game, and character, assassination not promotion. Not all publicity is good publicity. These rules apply in many sports, if a football player gets fouled, it does not empower them to berate referees, linesmen, officials and other players. They get banned for it, regardless of whether they were fouled or not. Job well done, Blizzard. Avilo can stick to his toxic channel and not pollute the tournaments. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Why would he play on this specific account? Are you going to sit there and tell me that even though hackers have been using this account, this never led to any sort of punishment or result in this account being put on a "watchlist"? And would he not know about it by receiving a message from blizzard that his account has been involved in suspicious activity?? There's 3 options here: 1. Nero hacks and shares this account with other hackers. 2. Nero doesn't hack but knowingly shares his account with hackers, while being aware of this fact. 3. Nero doesn't hack but knowingly shares his account with other players, while being oblivious of the fact that they hack. Nero's trying to become a professional player and make a name for himself ( see this reddit thread where a guy named oOOoOphidian mentions receiving a message from nero stating these intentions https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3gzutw/brawl_esports_nero_blatantly_cheating_on_other/). Professional players don't want to be associated with malpractices as this will get them banned. Keeping this in mind it's already questionable that he would share accounts in the first place since it's against the terms of agreement, and could result in him getting banned. Second of all, it seems to me that you only share accounts with people that you are quite familiar with/people that you trust. Else it seems like very risky behavior that could result in you losing your own account. Since he's trying to make a name for himself, I believe we can discredit option 2. Now I am sure that this specific account Nero's been playing on has been reported to blizzard for hacking in the past. What happens in such a case? Is your account investigated, put on a sort of watchlist? Is the user made aware that his account is being investigated?? This seems very reasonable to me since someone else might be using your account without you knowing and this could give you a chance to rectify this situation. This leads me to concluding that Nero was aware his account was being used by people that are hacking but this is incompatible with him admitting he wants to make a name for himself professionally. This is why I believe Nero does hack despite blizzard's official investigation stating he doesn't. And considering this information, this leads me to believe that he should never have been allowed to participate in the first place. Please someone reply and clarify some issues for me (How does blizzard handle accounts being reported for hacking, is the user of the account that's being investigated made aware of this fact, etc)! | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On March 30 2017 13:47 THERIDDLER wrote: Wait isn't blizzard contradicting themselves? the fact that vindicta was confirmed hacker should offset avilo's rude behaviour towards him. That wasn't the issue. He didn't follow Pharside's instructions. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:50 ReachTheSky wrote: I suppose I'll response 1)While the evidence may be weak, it's there. Blizzard claims they found no evidence of Vindicta hacking. There are undetectable hacks nowadays. The same people have been at it over and over and over hacking away and blizzard can't detect it. Avilo at least has some form of evidence. No he doesn't, the replays clearly show he didn't hack at all, which was confirmed by the tournament organizers, all he has are his assumptions. 2)Correct, He does do this when he feels helpless or to shift the blame off himself, however, Your number 2 statement is irrelevant to the discussion and is not directly interconnected in any form to the matters at hand at all. It has everything to do with it, there's such a thing as credibility and when you claim EVERYONE who beats you maphacks you have none, thus noone is going to listen to you, especially when you have no evidence 3)Avilo lost because his opponent, wait for it, was hacking.(incase you aren't aware, hacking gives one player a sizable advantage over the other LOL) No he didn't, it's been investigated and proven as false by the organizers. You can say he was hacking a million times but it's not going to be any more true the millionth time you say it than it was the first time you did. 4)Avilo verbally offended people. Who cares? Get some skin if you are bothered by words. It's not like he did anything in any capacity on any official WCS broadcast. The WCS organizers care, that's why they have clear rules on behavior, rules that avilo clearly broke, whether he was on his own stream or an official broadcast is irrelevant, he was still active in a WCS tournament at the time he broke the rules and thus he was bound by the WCS code of conduct, the same code of conduct he violated. 5)Despite english being my worst study, Whinged is not a word. whinge verb past tense: whinged; past participle: whinged complain persistently and in a peevish or irritating way. 6)Irrelevant to the matters at hand and shares absolutely zero direct interconnectedness to the discussion or penalty. (please make your points valid) Covered in point 2. It has everything to do with it, as well as his claims were investigated and found to be false. 7)The rest of the pros get free passes all the time when they break the rules, why not Avilo? Afterall, Avilo is the longest oldschool beta player still playing to date and has been promoting blizzards game for 7 years. Surely that has got to earn him something. Marinelord, Major and DnS say you're wrong, plus the fact that you don't "promote" a game by saying what is wrong with it. He hasn't earnt anything other than what he's getting, scorn, laughter and general apathy. 8)Only the ones that can't read between the lines laughed. When you actually wake up and realize exactly what is going on, the bias in decision making, the unequal treatment among top players by blizzard/WCS organizers/community figures and understand the impact/influence this type of behavior has on the future growth of the scene, you'll realize it is a really bad thing. You'll begin to realize that whether the WCS team/blizzard organizers/decision makers or whoever are indirectly alienating their community/playerbase by operating this way because it does not inspire people to play this game competitively. Knowing that players are purposely kept out of the inner circle despite skill does not make people want to watch. So laughable it doesn't even warrant a response. Would you care to make any other wrong arguments or can you take your little trolling account and go away now? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 31 2017 00:13 B-royal wrote: Can someone please explain to me why Nero, a player that's trying to qualify for WCS and make a name for himself professionally, would share accounts with hackers? Why would he play on this specific account? Are you going to sit there and tell me that even though hackers have been using this account, this never led to any sort of punishment or result in this account being put on a "watchlist"? And would he not know about it by receiving a message from blizzard that his account has been involved in suspicious activity?? There's 3 options here: 1. Nero hacks and shares this account with other hackers. 2. Nero doesn't hack but knowingly shares his account with hackers, while being aware of this fact. 3. Nero doesn't hack but knowingly shares his account with other players, while being oblivious of the fact that they hack. Nero's trying to become a professional player and make a name for himself ( see this reddit thread where a guy named oOOoOphidian mentions receiving a message from nero stating these intentions https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3gzutw/brawl_esports_nero_blatantly_cheating_on_other/). Professional players don't want to be associated with malpractices as this will get them banned. Keeping this in mind it's already questionable that he would share accounts in the first place since it's against the terms of agreement, and could result in him getting banned. Second of all, it seems to me that you only share accounts with people that you are quite familiar with/people that you trust. Else it seems like very risky behavior that could result in you losing your own account. Since he's trying to make a name for himself, I believe we can discredit option 2. Now I am sure that this specific account Nero's been playing on has been reported to blizzard for hacking in the past. What happens in such a case? Is your account investigated, put on a sort of watchlist? Is the user made aware that his account is being investigated?? This seems very reasonable to me since someone else might be using your account without you knowing and this could give you a chance to rectify this situation. This leads me to concluding that Nero was aware his account was being used by people that are hacking but this is incompatible with him admitting he wants to make a name for himself professionally. This is why I believe Nero does hack despite blizzard's official investigation stating he doesn't. And considering this information, this leads me to believe that he should never have been allowed to participate in the first place. Please someone reply and clarify some issues for me (How does blizzard handle accounts being reported for hacking, is the user of the account that's being investigated made aware of this fact, etc)! You are forgetting option D: Nero hacks, and uses other IPs(IP mask through a VPN tunnel?) to disguise his true IP when he is in the act to then make it seem like it isn't him on the account. boom never gets caught hacking on an IP local to him(which makes it look like its not him because its masked) and can always shift the blame elsewhere without getting his account permabanned from b.net. Is it far fetched, who knows, but it is completely possible. | ||
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billynasty
United States260 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
1. Avilo threw a bunch of accusations at his opponent that were partially correct, and partially incorrect. He does this to just about every single one of his opponents, but in this case he did at least have some justification based on Nero's history, hence the partially correct. As it turns out, Nero was breaking the rules (a repeat offender) and therefore Blizzard punished him. 2. Avilo was a total prick towards the WCS officials. He acts this way towards just about everyone, but it doesn't change the fact that his behavior was unprofessional in the extreme. Avilo was breaking the rules in doing so (a repeat offender) and therefore Blizzard punished him. And that's it. Pretty cut-and-dried. Both players broke the rules, both players got punished. Would be great if the conspiracy theorists and tinfoil hat wearers and persecution-victimization fetishists could leave it at that. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 31 2017 01:04 billynasty wrote: I agree that Avilo couldve handled this situation better, but he was justifiably upset about the same guy who cost him a spot a year ago was being allowed to play again. The intent of Avilo wasnt to cause harm to the event, it was him being upset that he had to play vs this guy. If the PC Police wants to punish Avilo for his response, then here is Kaelaris last night being racist on stream, about how people in Korea eat dogs: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingObservantCoffeeFailFish If the PC police goes after players, then shouldnt it go after official ESL casters too? Bro, this is extremely far fetched. There wasn't an ounce of negative connotation in the video provided. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
I agree that Avilo couldve handled this situation better, but he was justifiably upset about the same guy who cost him a spot a year ago was being allowed to play again. The intent of Avilo wasnt to cause harm to the event, it was him being upset that he had to play vs this guy. If the PC Police wants to punish Avilo for his response, then here is Kaelaris last night being racist on stream, about how people in Korea eat dogs: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingObservantCoffeeFailFish If the PC police goes after players, then shouldnt it go after official ESL casters too? There is absolutely no shred of any racism whatsoever in that video. Are you sure you have the right link? He was talking about Yorkshire pudding. He said there were no actual dogs in the food, unlike in Korea. It's a fact that some Koreans consume dog meat. Kaelaris made no criticism, no slur, not even a joke about this. No crime here. (Even if he had made some joking stereotypical comment about eating dogs it wouldn't have been a crime, any more than making some joking stereotypical comment about Americans being fat would be a crime) Compare to avilo's direct and repeated insults/slurs/curses addressed at a specifically named WCS official. Actually, don't compare. There's no comparison that can be made between the two issues. | ||
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Exquisite7
34 Posts
On March 30 2017 14:22 avilo wrote: So i get punished for exposing the hacker and not thanked or given a second chance to qualify from the one i got robbed? Blizzard logic at it's finest backwards. I hope the community does not put up for this bullshit, no matter if someone personally doesn't like me or not, i've never cheated in this game, and i just literally saved 3-4 other people that had their matches ruined by this hacker as well. I deserve another chance to qualify as well. I had a right to be upset that they made me play vs him even before the match i presented evidence showing who he was, and they refused to DQ him. On top of that, WCS official casters live on stream gave me shit, as usual with their condescending tones (except tod) and even went so far as to lie and say hacks don't exist on SC2. This is all around bullshit but i don't really expect much these days. I'm really hoping the SC2 community will stand up for me here, and the other players that are going to get another chance to qualify if they have any honor at all will stand up for me too for my chance to play that was robbed from me. Considering me even bringing all of this issue up in the first place is what is going to allow them to get re-games. This is as usual another biased attempt against me from Blizzard. Just like when they permabanned me from the bnet forums for giving CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK about 3 rax reapers. This is ridiculous. I do not want to argue about whether the players you face cheated or not. But I do want to say this: You have shitted on this community for years now. Everyone you beat is a "retard" and "so bad". Everyone that beats you is a "retard" and "so bad" and likely "map hacking and/or stream cheating". Even your own viewers are just a bunch of "goldies who don't shit about this game". You have talked shit about Blizzard for years calling them "dumasses" and much worse. Yet without us, without Blizzard, you wouldn't have what you have now. Blizzard, and more specifically the Starcraft community has provided the platform for you to become renown gamer. We have supported your stream. Blizzard has made the best RTS game ever and although it isn't perfect, it is still very fun to play. And yet still you have respect for no one but yourself. So I ask you: Why the FUCK should we come to help you. Why should we come to your side and you treat us like shit? It is time for you to wake up David. You are almost 30! Surely by now you should be mature enough to know that you must give respect in order to get it. | ||
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ILoveZest
9 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On March 31 2017 01:04 billynasty wrote: I agree that Avilo couldve handled this situation better, but he was justifiably upset about the same guy who cost him a spot a year ago was being allowed to play again. The intent of Avilo wasnt to cause harm to the event, it was him being upset that he had to play vs this guy. If the PC Police wants to punish Avilo for his response, then here is Kaelaris last night being racist on stream, about how people in Korea eat dogs: https://clips.twitch.tv/EnticingObservantCoffeeFailFish If the PC police goes after players, then shouldnt it go after official ESL casters too? You call out PC police, but then say someone is racist for commenting that they eat dog meat in Korea? You realise they litterally do eat dog meat in Korea right? | ||
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
You call out PC police, but then say someone is racist for commenting that they eat dog meat in Korea? You realise they litterally do eat dog meat in Korea right? I don't think he realizes that it wasn't an insult to say dogs are eaten in Korea (as well as Vietnam, China, and parts of Africa). It's just a fact, and it wasn't stated in an insulting way. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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hoby2000
United States918 Posts
On March 30 2017 14:22 avilo wrote: So i get punished for exposing the hacker and not thanked or given a second chance to qualify from the one i got robbed? Blizzard logic at it's finest backwards. I hope the community does not put up for this bullshit, no matter if someone personally doesn't like me or not, i've never cheated in this game, and i just literally saved 3-4 other people that had their matches ruined by this hacker as well. I deserve another chance to qualify as well. I had a right to be upset that they made me play vs him even before the match i presented evidence showing who he was, and they refused to DQ him. On top of that, WCS official casters live on stream gave me shit, as usual with their condescending tones (except tod) and even went so far as to lie and say hacks don't exist on SC2. This is all around bullshit but i don't really expect much these days. I'm really hoping the SC2 community will stand up for me here, and the other players that are going to get another chance to qualify if they have any honor at all will stand up for me too for my chance to play that was robbed from me. Considering me even bringing all of this issue up in the first place is what is going to allow them to get re-games. This is as usual another biased attempt against me from Blizzard. Just like when they permabanned me from the bnet forums for giving CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK about 3 rax reapers. This is ridiculous. No, dude. You don't. Welcome to the real world. I've acted like you have before in situations where I was far more justified and fucked over. GUess what happened after I bitched and complained? I got fucked more because they were sick of me throwing a fucking hissy fit when shit didn't go my way. I brought attention to important issues but did so in a demeanor that was disrespectful both to the company and to my co workers who had to put up with my fucking antics. I've done it to friends too, and even though I have good points, it's irrelevant when I act like a child. Just because you exposed someone doesn't mean you're reprieved of all wrong doing. You said and did stupid shit, don't pretend that's not the case.Not only that, but you're literally known for shitting on Blizzard for any change you don't like. And you think they should put up with this bullshit? Think again dude. You should be glad they're not perma banning your ass for acting the way you did. | ||
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reneg
United States859 Posts
On March 31 2017 01:52 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Guys I read through this entire thread and I still don't understand what exactly Avilo did to get banned. I dislike the guy, but what did he actually DO? Executive summary: - he was matched against someone who is an alleged hacker in the past - he dragged his feet, trying to get his opponent DQ'd - he went on to rage at officials for trying to get him to start the game - he played game one, and found "irrefutable proof of map hacks" (which consisted of a move command to a point near one of his siege tanks) - he then cussed out a bunch of people who were trying to get him to play game 2 - WCS reviewed that evening (right after match) and said they saw no evidence of hacking - after losing, he posted some veiled 'threat' against the casters and organizers - the person playing him, went on to qualify for WCS. WCS investigated, found no evidence of hacking in the tournament, but did find evidence of account sharing with a known hacker IP address, and therefore is DQ'd (due to account sharing being against EULA). They then went on to say that Avilo was also DQ'd from the tournament (he would theoretically have played against Ruff and cuddle, the two other players that victus beat on his way to qualify) - so he cannot participate in that. avilo can, however, participate in the open bracket, should he wish. victus cannot. | ||
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