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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 21:58 Creager wrote: Iirc that Nero guy even burned down Rome at some point. What a lunatic! If you are going to respond and quote my posts, at least contribute something valid to the discussion at hand or some sort of challenge at the very least. Mocking me is going to stop me from speaking the truth either. What's next? Incontrol-style bullying back from 4 years ago? | ||
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Creager
Germany1961 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:03 ReachTheSky wrote: If you are going to respond and quote my posts, at least contribute something valid to the discussion at hand or some sort of challenge at the very least. Mocking me is going to stop me from speaking the truth either. What's next? Incontrol-style bullying back from 4 years ago? Dude, despite your constant repitition now you're accusing a 16-year old kid to be a hacker in BW, you're probably challenged enough, already. This whole drama is ridiculous, there exists a code of conduct, avilo broke it, he got punished for it - move on, nothing to see here. | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
This...^ | ||
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nachtkap
Germany197 Posts
On March 30 2017 21:42 ReachTheSky wrote: The reason i keep repeating the same things is because THAT IS MY POINT OF VIEW. You keep asking the same questions, you get the same answers ROFL. Scroll back to all of my posts throughout this thread and you will see all of my explanations, there is always the chance you didn't get to read every single message i've posted. If you still don't get it after that, i'm afraid you have way bigger problems on hand than the issue being discussed my friend. Not sure why I was expecting anything different then an attempt to be yelled down by you.... I take it you havnt considered that you "have to" bring up the same points over and over again, because people find your reasoning unconvincing? For me at least that is the case. I find it unconvincing mainly because of my bit about INTENT on page 3. | ||
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nachtkap
Germany197 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:03 ReachTheSky wrote: If you are going to respond and quote my posts, at least contribute something valid to the discussion at hand or some sort of challenge at the very least. Mocking me is going to stop me from speaking the truth either. What's next? Incontrol-style bullying back from 4 years ago? So to you repeating the same points over and over again is On March 30 2017 22:03 ReachTheSky wrote: cool story.contributing something valid to the discussion at hand | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:03 ReachTheSky wrote: If you are going to respond and quote my posts, at least contribute something valid to the discussion at hand or some sort of challenge at the very least. Mocking me is going to stop me from speaking the truth either. What's next? Incontrol-style bullying back from 4 years ago? Okay you have to be a troll, you just have to be. You can't possibly sit there and say "If you're going to quote me, contribute something valid" with a straight face considering your posts in this thread. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
However, if a garbage tier HOTS caster was dissing me on live stream, I would probably go on full tilt too. fairplay is cool. respect is a huge part of fairplay. Both parties failed to deliver. User was warned for this post | ||
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Bijan
United States286 Posts
On March 30 2017 20:45 avilo wrote: How does what i post on my own blog, or livestream, or whatever matter for any of this? Answer? It doesn't. Nathanias, pig, kaelaris, list goes on and other players/casters have said worse or similar bs about other players or personalities in the scene and they receive zero punishment because they work for blizzard. This is why people keep telling you to grow up. This is the real world, your image matters. Maybe all those people have said similar or worse things, but people don't perceive them as an asshole. The moment that changes you will begin to see them being treated differently. Your entire reputation is toxicity. Until you manage to fix that you will continue to see people being treated differently from you for the rest of your life. Is it unfair? Maybe. Deal with it. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3135 Posts
There are really only a few possible issues here: (1) Did the guy actually hack? (2) Did Avilo break the rules by his behavior? (3) Is there inconsistency in the application of rules to a degree that is actually unjust? As to 1, all the info we have says that the guy did not hack for the actual game, but may have in the past. So that's something. As to 2, it seems quite clear that Avilo was actually in violation of the WCS regulations. I don't really see anyone coherently denying that. Note also that the answer to (1) does not directly impinge on the our answer to (2). There is no need to grant an exception for someone breaking one rule because he may have exposed someone breaking another rule. Such things can be granted in extreme circumstances, when the rule broken is very minor and the rule exposed is very serious, but they should in no way be the norm. Basic standards of sportsmanship are by no means a minor rule in competition. The only serious, substantive accusation that has been leveled is inconsistency/favoritism in application of rules. Certainly, Avilo is not a popular guy in the progaming and casting community, but the progaming and casting community is not identical to Blizzard's refs. It would be hard to prove favoritism in this instance, and would require serious evidence to this effect. Some people have made the claim of favoritism based on the "account sharing" provision of the EULA. This, however, does not seem to pan out for several reasons. First, this relates to the (1) rule, so it doesn't actually have any direct impact on the justice of Avilo's sentence. Secondly, Nero seems to have been banned, not just for account sharing, but for account sharing with known hackers, and for logging onto known hacker accounts. In other words, the account sharing is part of a circumstantial case for map-hacking, and it is this suspicious behavior that leads to him being punished. This is a bit wonky, but it does seem (though is there evidence to the contrary?) to be fairly consistent behavior on Blizzard's part; only enforcing the EULA on account-sharing when it is connected to some other offence, such as using this account-sharing to gain an advantage in WCS. There are certainly civil laws that are treated in a similar way, in that they are only enforced in practice in connection to some other offence. This is perhaps a bit wonky, though. Still, if anyone would have a right to complain in this instance, it would be Nero, not avilo. Otherwise, bad player behavior may not have been enforced that strictly in the past, especially with people like Idra. On the other hand, the scene was much less organized back then, and I don't even think the WCS rules were in place. If anyone can come up with a clear example of equivalent or worse behavior relatively recently within the WCS system that was not punished, then they would have a case. Even then, though, this would probably lead to the conclusion that these rules should be more strictly enforced in the future, not that avilo should be let off. TLDR: Whether the person is a hacker or not isn't directly relevant to the question of whether avilo should be punished. It's quite hard to make a case that this should be reversed. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:02 AxiomBlurr wrote: Bottomline: 1) Avilo's claim and evidence of cheating is weak. 2) Avilo has cried wolf too often. (Watch Jason Vs avilo on youtube) 3) Avilo lost. 4) Avilo tried to verbally offend people. 5) Avilo whinged some more. 6) Avilo cried wolf again 7) Avilo was cautioned and punished. 8) The SC2 community laughed. SC2 Lives Matter!!! I suppose I'll response 1)While the evidence may be weak, it's there. Blizzard claims they found no evidence of Vindicta hacking. There are undetectable hacks nowadays. The same people have been at it over and over and over hacking away and blizzard can't detect it. Avilo at least has some form of evidence. 2)Correct, He does do this when he feels helpless or to shift the blame off himself, however, Your number 2 statement is irrelevant to the discussion and is not directly interconnected in any form to the matters at hand at all. 3)Avilo lost because his opponent, wait for it, was hacking.(incase you aren't aware, hacking gives one player a sizable advantage over the other LOL) 4)Avilo verbally offended people. Who cares? Get some skin if you are bothered by words. It's not like he did anything in any capacity on any official WCS broadcast. 5)Despite english being my worst study, Whinged is not a word. 6)Irrelevant to the matters at hand and shares absolutely zero direct interconnectedness to the discussion or penalty. (please make your points valid) 7)The rest of the pros get free passes all the time when they break the rules, why not Avilo? Afterall, Avilo is the longest oldschool beta player still playing to date and has been promoting blizzards game for 7 years. Surely that has got to earn him something. 8)Only the ones that can't read between the lines laughed. When you actually wake up and realize exactly what is going on, the bias in decision making, the unequal treatment among top players by blizzard/WCS organizers/community figures and understand the impact/influence this type of behavior has on the future growth of the scene, you'll realize it is a really bad thing. You'll begin to realize that whether the WCS team/blizzard organizers/decision makers or whoever are indirectly alienating their community/playerbase by operating this way because it does not inspire people to play this game competitively. Knowing that players are purposely kept out of the inner circle despite skill does not make people want to watch. This type of INCONSISTENT leadership does not inspire me to play sc2 nor watch it and it sure as hell does not make me want to tell others about sc2/wcs. Do you think maybe it is a possibility the masses that played sc2 through the end of WOL/early HOTS had started to realize the points i make in number 8 and decided to move on knowing you only get an opportunity if they like you? Blizzard/WCS advertises that is solely a competition based on in-game skill to qualify but the truth is, if you aren't in the oldguard/oldboys club or they don't like you, they will do everything to keep you out.(current circumstances, unequal treatment to players with the vast majority of pros breaking rules defined clearly in blizzard's TUA, only enforcing punishment on Avilo for calling a commentator a beta **** on reddit(LOL) How does this type of leadership grow a scene? It hasn't made me want to contribute one bit since I quit playing for quantic back in 2011. There needs to be a change and it needs to start here. Enough of the one liner posts guys, at least come up with valid constructive points that make sense in bettering the scene. You are better than this, or so I think. Prove me right. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 22:22 nachtkap wrote: So to you repeating the same points over and over again is cool story. Some people get upset when they challenge someone else's stance on an issue and when they don't get the answer they want to here. They ask the same questions, they get the same answers. It is a completely logical thing to expect, if you are sane that is. 2 +2 doesn't magically become 5 does it? Repeating my stance when asked questions does not equate to a lack of contribution either. Sorry I didn't change my opinion to suit yours. Thanks for the input though! | ||
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Weird
United States832 Posts
Avilo gets more viewers/attention. Avilo wins. Good Job TL/community. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:10 Weird wrote: Avilo acts like dbag little kid. Avilo gets more viewers/attention. Avilo wins. Good Job TL/community. Idra acted the exact same way and everyone loved it. At least Avilo likes his fans and shows appreciation/interacts with them. It's a good contribution to the community and keeps people around playing the game/watching competitive starcraft. This sounds like a positive thing if you ask me. | ||
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DeadByDawn
United Kingdom476 Posts
Afterall, Avilo is the longest oldschool beta player still playing to date and has been promoting blizzards game for 7 years. Surely that has got to earn him something. Yes, ReachTheSky, you promote a product by: 1) Claiming it is crap. 2) Claiming the developers favour one race, or the other, over yours. 3) Claiming everybody else is a hacker, even those that you beat. 4) Claiming the developers are clueless. 5) Bad mouthing casters and administrations. Yes, all those are in 'Product Promotion 101'. Avilo, really is Blizzard sales rep of the year. I watched Avilo's stream during this incident, he was beyond outrageous and the circumstances do not excuse him. I then watched Ruff's stream against the same guy. The difference in the level of professionalism was huge. Good luck to Ruff, good riddance to Vindicta, and Avilo. I am sorry if that offends you, but your fanatical support for Avilo has blinded you to the facts. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:10 Weird wrote: Avilo acts like dbag little kid. Avilo gets more viewers/attention. Avilo wins. Good Job TL/community. basically this. avilo's numbers never go as high as when he has some drama going on. And honestly, avilo himself probably never expected to get out of this qualifier. Whenever he plays someone with a name you recognize he loses lol. | ||
KadaverBB
Germany25658 Posts
On March 30 2017 20:45 avilo wrote: How does what i post on my own blog, or livestream, or whatever matter for any of this? Answer? It doesn't. Nathanias, pig, kaelaris, list goes on and other players/casters have said worse or similar bs about other players or personalities in the scene and they receive zero punishment because they work for blizzard. Kaelaris/pig trying to take a verbal shit on my name on a live cast in front of thousands of people, while also at the same time pretending hacking does not exist...this is allowed. But i run into a hacker, a known hacker, show evidence, and get punished for exposing the hacker...because of a post i make on reddit outside of the sphere of the tourney? Yeah. This system is basically bullshit. Nothing was done about the same hacker i played over a year ago, they said the same exact canned response " we'll look into it." I got rightfully angry nothing was done this time and i got robbed of my qualifier spjot. Then they find another excuse to ban me and not allow me to get my chance to qualify after they backtrack and realize that the guy does indeed maphack after they paraded him around on their live stream in front of thousands of viewers. I mean...it's just ego at this point. They didn't want to admit i was right and they were wrong. So they continue to try and blacklist me for whatever bullshit reasons they can find. I stick by what i said, and i deserve another shot at the first qualifier just like the other people that got robbed that had to play against Nero even after they were shown tons of evidence before and after my match that he was a KNOWN maphacker. They of course will not punish their casters for being biased or trying to talk shit about me live on casts because they condone that type of thing. It's clear they have wanted me out of the scene since they permabanned me from the blizzard forums for posting about 3 rax reaper a few months ago. Guess what, i'm not going anywhere. Maybe instead of continually taking a shit on the players still left in the SC2 scene, they should consider trying to treat the players left fairly and banning cheaters from their tourneys and LISTENING to the players. That's kind of the crux of all of this. Blizzard does not listen to it's player base anymore. Your behaviour is terrible. Accept it, try to change it. | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
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Weird
United States832 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:13 ReachTheSky wrote: Idra acted the exact same way and everyone loved it. At least Avilo likes his fans and shows appreciation/interacts with them. It's a good contribution to the community and keeps people around playing the game/watching competitive starcraft. This sounds like a positive thing if you ask me. I'm out of this thread after this post. I'm pretty sure not everyone loved the way that Idra acted. Why do you turn a blind eye to his immature/unacceptable behavior? Because he "likes his fans and shows appreciation"? Don't you see how people like you help enable him in the first place to act that way? This is just a burning neon sign to all of the streamers out there: Be a terrible human being, gain sycophantic followers who will defend you to the end. Plus get more viewers and more attention. If you spent as much time in the gym as you did posting in this topic I think you would be happier. Later all. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:16 DeadByDawn wrote: Yes, ReachTheSky, you promote a product by: 1) Claiming it is crap. 2) Claiming the developers favour one race, or the other, over yours. 3) Claiming everybody else is a hacker, even those that you beat. 4) Claiming the developers are clueless. 5) Bad mouthing casters and administrations. Yes, all those are in 'Product Promotion 101'. Avilo, really is Blizzard sales rep of the year. I watched Avilo's stream during this incident, he was beyond outrageous and the circumstances do not excuse him. I then watched Ruff's stream against the same guy. The difference in the level of professionalism was huge. Good luck to Ruff, good riddance to Vindicta, and Avilo. I am sorry if that offends you, but your fanatical support for Avilo has blinded you to the facts. 1)I'm not going to allow you to bait me into turning this discussion into game bashing, You said it not me. (You might want to avoid saying stuff like like that, its frowned upon around here) 2)Developers do focus heavily on one race at a time for extended periods of time. 3)Avilo gets an extremely high amount of stream sniper trolls that always have their units at the right place at the right time with out any intel even though avilo switches his strategy & execution up consistently. You'd know this if you'd watched his stream recently at least. I don't blame if you if you don't but at least be valid here if you are gonna bring stuff like that up. I don't blame the guy for calling it as he sees it. He doesn't call everyone hackers. Also, it sounds like you've never beat a hacker not it has anything to do with the discussion at hand. 4)Developers took the longest time to gain an actual understanding of the balance of the game. For awhile they just waited till players got tired of something to make a change or just took certain players' word for balance until they gain a full understanding. Who wouldn't complain about it? 5)It is very easy to badmouth casters/administrations. Every single player does it at some point or another. Especially if there is not a thorough system in place. If administrations had acted swiftly/unbias in the past perhaps Avilo and several other players/viewers might have a little more faith. In a way, they've created a beast. Who wouldn't want to bad mouth casters/administrators after these experiences. Thanks for coming up with unreasonable/irrelevant points in an attempt to discredit Avilo's contributions to the community. After all, he offers more than you do. Nothing offends me, I have a thick layer of skin, bud. In terms of being a fan of Avilo, I already said on page 1 or 2 that I can't stand him. That doesn't mean I can't side with him on an issue if I believe there to be unjust bias or bad decision making on an administrative level. Nothing everything is as black and white as you think. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On March 30 2017 23:38 Weird wrote: I'm out of this thread after this post. I'm pretty sure not everyone loved the way that Idra acted. Why do you turn a blind eye to his immature/unacceptable behavior? Because he "likes his fans and shows appreciation"? Don't you see how people like you help enable him in the first place to act that way? This is just a burning neon sign to all of the streamers out there: Be a terrible human being, gain sycophantic followers who will defend you to the end. Plus get more viewers and more attention. If you spent as much time in the gym as you did posting in this topic I think you would be happier. Later all. I goto the gym 4 times a week ROFL. Also, character assassination is not very becoming these days. In fact, I don't think it ever has been. Might want to put that card back and choose a new one. | ||
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