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On April 01 2017 00:29 B-royal wrote:Noone believes this disingenuous blizzard investigation and their PR talk. I could quote my own post but ReachTheSky even added a 4th option that's even more believable. Nero's just using a VPN or some other tool to mask his own IP. Also did you see the recent thread that popped up? Map hacks are definitely back, there's no doubt this Juggernaut guy is a maphacker. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/520658-conclusive-evidence-maphack-is-back
I completely agree, how could Blizzard verify a player was map-hacking when their official stance is that no map-hacks exist. Simply put, they can't and wont. Instead they have come up with some other ban based around account sharing.
I have seen the video in the thread you linked, it's more than enough proof for me.
I wouldn't worry about arguing with people on this forum who are so blinded by hate that they stand by their own points even when they have been proven to be nonsense by far more qualified people. Especially when their initial points were based of nothing more than opinion.
It is fully understandable why a lot of people dislike Avilo, but thankfully most of these people realise he was actually right this time and most of them acknowledge this and are happily pointing out the 'boy who cried wolf' fable. Sadly their are still a few who are so hung up on disliking his personality they are blinded by hate and refuse to accept he was actually right this time.
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Avilo frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning. He deserves the punishment.
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On April 01 2017 00:51 Doodsmack wrote:
Avilo frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning. He deserves the punishment.
This doesn't even make sense, karma and justice are completely different.
He deserves punishment for the way he behaved after he reported the hacking. ESL couldn't act on his complaints at the time and he acted like a little bitch, this is what deserves punishment. The fact ESL couldn't act on his complaints is what drove him to be mad and whilst it is understandable to a degree, they certainly should have the means to act during the tournament, their is no excuse for how he behaved after that and that is why he is being punished.
Avilo himself sadly can't seem to see that his behavior after he initially complained is what is being punished regardless of whether he was in the right and was right when reporting the issue.
As I have stated before ESL should have the means to act upon such complaints during the tournament, this isn't a one off community ran event/small tournament, this is the first step on the way to the WCS finals. This is basically the first round of the most important global tournament of the year, and the fact decisions can't be made during a tournament is a joke. The fact players aren't vetted before the tournament is a joke.
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On March 30 2017 13:47 THERIDDLER wrote:
Wait isn't blizzard contradicting themselves? the fact that vindicta was confirmed hacker should offset avilo's rude behaviour towards him.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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On April 01 2017 01:15 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2017 13:47 THERIDDLER wrote:
Wait isn't blizzard contradicting themselves? the fact that vindicta was confirmed hacker should offset avilo's rude behaviour towards him. Two wrongs don't make a right.
It doesnt make it right but understandable.
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Being right about the dude being a cheater doesn't suddenly vindicate you when you have a track record of accusing literally everyone who beats you of cheating.
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On April 01 2017 01:19 snowmani wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 01:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 30 2017 13:47 THERIDDLER wrote:
Wait isn't blizzard contradicting themselves? the fact that vindicta was confirmed hacker should offset avilo's rude behaviour towards him. Two wrongs don't make a right. It doesnt make it right but understandable.
I don't think anyone is saying that they can't understand the frustration - it's absolutely something that everyone can follow.
Most people, however, don't lose their tops when things don't go their way, and they have to go through a frustrating situation.
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If I recall correctly, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by said wolves at the end of the story right?
If so it fits the avilo narrative pretty well in this case lol
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Who cares if the player in question was maphacking or not, ask yourself: could INnoVation or any other legitimate player have beaten that guy? If so, well there you go, the solution to your problem is simply to get good.
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On April 01 2017 01:35 crazyc987654321 wrote:
Being right about the dude being a cheater doesn't suddenly vindicate you when you have a track record of accusing literally everyone who beats you of cheating.
Yup. If every morning I shout at my neighbors and bang on their front door telling them to stay inside, shut their windows, and hide in their basements because there's going to be a massive thunderstorm and tornadoes, even the one day that actually happens doesn't mean the other hundred times were okay or that I get to treat people like garbage on the one day I happened to be correct and spew vile from my mouth at them because they refused to believe me. And it certainly doesn't mean that anyone else should ever believe me from that point on with regards to anything, especially the weather.
People who do that sort of thing in public are shunned or possibly even taken to mental health care centers or at the very least reported to the police and fined for disturbing the peace as well as harassment.
I thought it would be rather unsurprising when a person who cries wolf every day and grossly violates player conduct guidelines and is known to be offensive to and incite violent behavior towards other players and badmouths nearly every organisation related to Blizzard and StarCraft would be disqualified from an event and, sigh, I honestly expected everyone to understand why.
On March 30 2017 14:22 avilo wrote:
This is all around bullshit
On April 01 2017 03:08 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
If I recall correctly, the boy who cried wolf got eaten by said wolves at the end of the story right?
He only got bit by one wolf so far, though I'd say we're a little closer to the happy ending of that classic tale. The wolves get fed without eating the li'l ol' sheep and the townspeople don't have to listen to his drivel anymore, it's so good I can't wait for it to happen irl. <3
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On April 01 2017 01:12 Ve5pa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 00:51 Doodsmack wrote:
Avilo frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning. He deserves the punishment. This doesn't even make sense, karma and justice are completely different. He deserves punishment for the way he behaved after he reported the hacking. ESL couldn't act on his complaints at the time and he acted like a little bitch, this is what deserves punishment. The fact ESL couldn't act on his complaints is what drove him to be mad and whilst it is understandable to a degree, they certainly should have the means to act during the tournament, their is no excuse for how he behaved after that and that is why he is being punished. Avilo himself sadly can't seem to see that his behavior after he initially complained is what is being punished regardless of whether he was in the right and was right when reporting the issue. As I have stated before ESL should have the means to act upon such complaints during the tournament, this isn't a one off community ran event/small tournament, this is the first step on the way to the WCS finals. This is basically the first round of the most important global tournament of the year, and the fact decisions can't be made during a tournament is a joke. The fact players aren't vetted before the tournament is a joke.
Blizzard's rules are that people's behavior outside of the tournament is also grounds for punishment.
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On April 01 2017 05:07 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 01:12 Ve5pa wrote:On April 01 2017 00:51 Doodsmack wrote:
Avilo frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning. He deserves the punishment. This doesn't even make sense, karma and justice are completely different. He deserves punishment for the way he behaved after he reported the hacking. ESL couldn't act on his complaints at the time and he acted like a little bitch, this is what deserves punishment. The fact ESL couldn't act on his complaints is what drove him to be mad and whilst it is understandable to a degree, they certainly should have the means to act during the tournament, their is no excuse for how he behaved after that and that is why he is being punished. Avilo himself sadly can't seem to see that his behavior after he initially complained is what is being punished regardless of whether he was in the right and was right when reporting the issue. As I have stated before ESL should have the means to act upon such complaints during the tournament, this isn't a one off community ran event/small tournament, this is the first step on the way to the WCS finals. This is basically the first round of the most important global tournament of the year, and the fact decisions can't be made during a tournament is a joke. The fact players aren't vetted before the tournament is a joke. Blizzard's rules are that people's behavior outside of the tournament is also grounds for punishment.
I agree and that punishment should be applied before a tournament beings, this should be done when players who have applied to play are vetted, but they aren't.... Letting them compete and punishing retroactively would be wrong on the player, his opponents, viewers, fans et al. But this wasn't even the case.
Attributing the punishment he received for his behavior during this tournament to his behavior before it is not what happened, he was punished for his behavior towards admins, casters and the general way he behaved during the tournament after he expressed his concerns about his opponent and was told he still had to play.
His punishment has absolutely nothing to do with 'frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning.'
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Just watched Ketroc's analysis of a game, Retribution Vs Avilo, that Avilo submitted to him and claimed was maphacking.
The only thing it showed was that Retribution outplayed him at his own Viking+Raven game, and that Avilo needs no evidence other than he lost that the other player is a maphacker. Retribution, aka Nero, may hack at times, but this shows that against Avilo he doesn't need to.
And no, if you watch the game it isn't a hard to detect hack, there is not a single suspicious moment in it.
Still, neither player should be playing in WCS.
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On April 01 2017 05:17 Ve5pa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 05:07 Doodsmack wrote:On April 01 2017 01:12 Ve5pa wrote:On April 01 2017 00:51 Doodsmack wrote:
Avilo frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning. He deserves the punishment. This doesn't even make sense, karma and justice are completely different. He deserves punishment for the way he behaved after he reported the hacking. ESL couldn't act on his complaints at the time and he acted like a little bitch, this is what deserves punishment. The fact ESL couldn't act on his complaints is what drove him to be mad and whilst it is understandable to a degree, they certainly should have the means to act during the tournament, their is no excuse for how he behaved after that and that is why he is being punished. Avilo himself sadly can't seem to see that his behavior after he initially complained is what is being punished regardless of whether he was in the right and was right when reporting the issue. As I have stated before ESL should have the means to act upon such complaints during the tournament, this isn't a one off community ran event/small tournament, this is the first step on the way to the WCS finals. This is basically the first round of the most important global tournament of the year, and the fact decisions can't be made during a tournament is a joke. The fact players aren't vetted before the tournament is a joke. Blizzard's rules are that people's behavior outside of the tournament is also grounds for punishment. I agree and that punishment should be applied before a tournament beings, this should be done when players who have applied to play are vetted, but they aren't.... Letting them compete and punishing retroactively would be wrong on the player, his opponents, viewers, fans et al. But this wasn't even the case. Attributing the punishment he received for his behavior during this tournament to his behavior before it is not what happened, he was punished for his behavior towards admins, casters and the general way he behaved during the tournament after he expressed his concerns about his opponent and was told he still had to play. His punishment has absolutely nothing to do with 'frequently accuses players of hacking based on very shoddy reasoning.'
That's a good point but I'd say his streaming activity should be a contributing factor at least.
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As much as i hate Avilo, i have to agree with him this time. This is ridiculous. Can't expect much from this incompetent company that fixed cheating for only a week in 7 years and allows a known hacker to play tournaments, but at least give him a chance to do his cancer matches and lose fairly.
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On April 01 2017 05:25 DeadByDawn wrote:
Just watched Ketroc's analysis of a game, Retribution Vs Avilo, that Avilo submitted to him and claimed was maphacking.
The only thing it showed was that Retribution outplayed him at his own Viking+Raven game, and that Avilo needs no evidence other than he lost that the other player is a maphacker. Retribution, aka Nero, may hack at times, but this shows that against Avilo he doesn't need to.
And no, if you watch the game it isn't a hard to detect hack, there is not a single suspicious moment in it.
Still, neither player should be playing in WCS.
Wrong. It's one of 10+ games of him build order countering + production tab hack. In over 10 games vs Retribution he will always time his starports as i build mine every single game, over the course of 10+ games. He also never gets build order loss or disadvantage in any game.
Just because i won or lost the games vs him means nothing. And ketroc did not even analyze the games - he literally just started fanboying over raven vs raven and was commentating it like a normal game. I should have known better to even bother sending replays of a known hacker to a diamond leaguer.
I have many replays of me BEATING Nero, and he is also hacking in those games as well. Nero is not one of those "OBVIOUS" mher in that he very rarely will blatantly look into fog of war or those types of things. The way he abuses his hack is by doing the exact same thing you're doing (mirroring you) and doing it while being slightly ahead from always having a build order advantage (due to the MH).
You'll notice same in nero vs Ruff games where the guy will blindly decide whether or not to get turrets, etc. in the opener. If you go raven, he'll either go raven to match you, or he'll play heavy macro since he knows you're playing defense.
If you go cloak banshee he'll go raven viking.
If you go cyclone he'll build 2 more cyclones than you.
Ketroc did zero analysis on the game, and failed to even notice at around 19:30 you can see what i'm describing about him using his production tab hack to mirror and time his production of starports at the exact same time.
Both sottorks and Nero did this against me in the most recent WCS qualifiers. One of the games vs Sottorks i build two starports and sottorks immediately queues up two starports as well almost less than one second later.
But like i said - unless you have played versus these hackers enough and have spotted these things, it's tough to spot. Ketroc blatantly just started commentating about ravens instead of doing any analysis whatsoever.
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On April 01 2017 10:03 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 05:25 DeadByDawn wrote:
Just watched Ketroc's analysis of a game, Retribution Vs Avilo, that Avilo submitted to him and claimed was maphacking.
The only thing it showed was that Retribution outplayed him at his own Viking+Raven game, and that Avilo needs no evidence other than he lost that the other player is a maphacker. Retribution, aka Nero, may hack at times, but this shows that against Avilo he doesn't need to.
And no, if you watch the game it isn't a hard to detect hack, there is not a single suspicious moment in it.
Still, neither player should be playing in WCS.
Wrong. It's one of 10+ games of him build order countering + production tab hack. In over 10 games vs Retribution he will always time his starports as i build mine every single game, over the course of 10+ games. He also never gets build order loss or disadvantage in any game. Just because i won or lost the games vs him means nothing. And ketroc did not even analyze the games - he literally just started fanboying over raven vs raven and was commentating it like a normal game. I should have known better to even bother sending replays of a known hacker to a diamond leaguer. I have many replays of me BEATING Nero, and he is also hacking in those games as well. Nero is not one of those "OBVIOUS" mher in that he very rarely will blatantly look into fog of war or those types of things. The way he abuses his hack is by doing the exact same thing you're doing (mirroring you) and doing it while being slightly ahead from always having a build order advantage (due to the MH). You'll notice same in nero vs Ruff games where the guy will blindly decide whether or not to get turrets, etc. in the opener. If you go raven, he'll either go raven to match you, or he'll play heavy macro since he knows you're playing defense. If you go cloak banshee he'll go raven viking. If you go cyclone he'll build 2 more cyclones than you. Ketroc did zero analysis on the game, and failed to even notice at around 19:30 you can see what i'm describing about him using his production tab hack to mirror and time his production of starports at the exact same time. Both sottorks and Nero did this against me in the most recent WCS qualifiers. One of the games vs Sottorks i build two starports and sottorks immediately queues up two starports as well almost less than one second later. But like i said - unless you have played versus these hackers enough and have spotted these things, it's tough to spot. Ketroc blatantly just started commentating about ravens instead of doing any analysis whatsoever.
Ahhh yes the "Information Dump" defense. Give someone 10 plus maps to "prove" your claim and then when you're proven wrong, claim that they used the wrong map, that way you can NEVER be wrong. Or when they do look at them all claim they missed one minute and irrelevant detail at "Time point x of map y" to vainly attempt to render their whole argument invalid.
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On April 01 2017 10:13 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 10:03 avilo wrote:On April 01 2017 05:25 DeadByDawn wrote:
Just watched Ketroc's analysis of a game, Retribution Vs Avilo, that Avilo submitted to him and claimed was maphacking.
The only thing it showed was that Retribution outplayed him at his own Viking+Raven game, and that Avilo needs no evidence other than he lost that the other player is a maphacker. Retribution, aka Nero, may hack at times, but this shows that against Avilo he doesn't need to.
And no, if you watch the game it isn't a hard to detect hack, there is not a single suspicious moment in it.
Still, neither player should be playing in WCS.
Wrong. It's one of 10+ games of him build order countering + production tab hack. In over 10 games vs Retribution he will always time his starports as i build mine every single game, over the course of 10+ games. He also never gets build order loss or disadvantage in any game. Just because i won or lost the games vs him means nothing. And ketroc did not even analyze the games - he literally just started fanboying over raven vs raven and was commentating it like a normal game. I should have known better to even bother sending replays of a known hacker to a diamond leaguer. I have many replays of me BEATING Nero, and he is also hacking in those games as well. Nero is not one of those "OBVIOUS" mher in that he very rarely will blatantly look into fog of war or those types of things. The way he abuses his hack is by doing the exact same thing you're doing (mirroring you) and doing it while being slightly ahead from always having a build order advantage (due to the MH). You'll notice same in nero vs Ruff games where the guy will blindly decide whether or not to get turrets, etc. in the opener. If you go raven, he'll either go raven to match you, or he'll play heavy macro since he knows you're playing defense. If you go cloak banshee he'll go raven viking. If you go cyclone he'll build 2 more cyclones than you. Ketroc did zero analysis on the game, and failed to even notice at around 19:30 you can see what i'm describing about him using his production tab hack to mirror and time his production of starports at the exact same time. Both sottorks and Nero did this against me in the most recent WCS qualifiers. One of the games vs Sottorks i build two starports and sottorks immediately queues up two starports as well almost less than one second later. But like i said - unless you have played versus these hackers enough and have spotted these things, it's tough to spot. Ketroc blatantly just started commentating about ravens instead of doing any analysis whatsoever. Ahhh yes the "Information Dump" defense. Give someone 10 plus maps to "prove" your claim and then when you're proven wrong, claim that they used the wrong map, that way you can NEVER be wrong. Or when they do look at them all claim they missed one minute and irrelevant detail at "Time point x of map y" to vainly attempt to render their whole argument invalid.
I haven't been proven wrong? I was proven right? Nero is a 100% confirmed known hacker. Saying otherwise is absolutely retarded in all respects.
Also btw Blizzard's official statement is either a flat out lie or they were incompetent in making it because as many have stated in this thread, Nero prob used VPN or other ways to mask that he was the person on his account. It was absolutely him every time - the hotkeys of the games match up.
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On April 01 2017 10:17 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2017 10:13 showstealer1829 wrote:On April 01 2017 10:03 avilo wrote:On April 01 2017 05:25 DeadByDawn wrote:
Just watched Ketroc's analysis of a game, Retribution Vs Avilo, that Avilo submitted to him and claimed was maphacking.
The only thing it showed was that Retribution outplayed him at his own Viking+Raven game, and that Avilo needs no evidence other than he lost that the other player is a maphacker. Retribution, aka Nero, may hack at times, but this shows that against Avilo he doesn't need to.
And no, if you watch the game it isn't a hard to detect hack, there is not a single suspicious moment in it.
Still, neither player should be playing in WCS.
Wrong. It's one of 10+ games of him build order countering + production tab hack. In over 10 games vs Retribution he will always time his starports as i build mine every single game, over the course of 10+ games. He also never gets build order loss or disadvantage in any game. Just because i won or lost the games vs him means nothing. And ketroc did not even analyze the games - he literally just started fanboying over raven vs raven and was commentating it like a normal game. I should have known better to even bother sending replays of a known hacker to a diamond leaguer. I have many replays of me BEATING Nero, and he is also hacking in those games as well. Nero is not one of those "OBVIOUS" mher in that he very rarely will blatantly look into fog of war or those types of things. The way he abuses his hack is by doing the exact same thing you're doing (mirroring you) and doing it while being slightly ahead from always having a build order advantage (due to the MH). You'll notice same in nero vs Ruff games where the guy will blindly decide whether or not to get turrets, etc. in the opener. If you go raven, he'll either go raven to match you, or he'll play heavy macro since he knows you're playing defense. If you go cloak banshee he'll go raven viking. If you go cyclone he'll build 2 more cyclones than you. Ketroc did zero analysis on the game, and failed to even notice at around 19:30 you can see what i'm describing about him using his production tab hack to mirror and time his production of starports at the exact same time. Both sottorks and Nero did this against me in the most recent WCS qualifiers. One of the games vs Sottorks i build two starports and sottorks immediately queues up two starports as well almost less than one second later. But like i said - unless you have played versus these hackers enough and have spotted these things, it's tough to spot. Ketroc blatantly just started commentating about ravens instead of doing any analysis whatsoever. Ahhh yes the "Information Dump" defense. Give someone 10 plus maps to "prove" your claim and then when you're proven wrong, claim that they used the wrong map, that way you can NEVER be wrong. Or when they do look at them all claim they missed one minute and irrelevant detail at "Time point x of map y" to vainly attempt to render their whole argument invalid. I haven't been proven wrong? I was proven right? Nero is a 100% confirmed known hacker. Saying otherwise is absolutely retarded in all respects. Also btw Blizzard's official statement is either a flat out lie or they were incompetent in making it because as many have stated in this thread, Nero prob used VPN or other ways to mask that he was the person on his account. It was absolutely him every time - the hotkeys of the games match up.
I rest my case. It's always something. If people look at the replays and find nothing it's "time point x on map y" to prove you're right and they're wrong. If the investigation says "X player is not a hacker" it's "Well they probably use VPN to mask themselves" to prove you're right and they're wrong. If you ever lose a game it's not because "I'm fucking terrible at the game and I play a shit style" it's "the game is broken" or "This guy hacks" to prove you're right and they're wrong
Meanwhile you continue to happily milk deluded fanboys out of their pocket money because getting better at the game might actually take real work and dedication. Does that make you feel like a good man? Does that make you feel important? Do you have any self awareness whatsoever? Or has the avilo "character" you play finally grown to the point where you've lost all grip on reality?
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@Avilo: Here is what the community, the casters, the tournament admins and the fans of the game in general, need from you to ever truly acknowledge and/or trust a single word you post or say:
1) "I avilo, have accused incorrectly too many players of hacking."
2) "I avilo, have too often in the past refused to own up to my own mistakes and failures."
3) "I avilo, have never been able to compete at the highest levels in SC2 and am predictable in my playstyle. " (This is important as A - the vast majority of players you have accused of hacking in the past, KNOW HOW YOU PLAY. B - Your lack of humility in stating your arguments is detrimental to the credibility of your stance).
4) "I avilo, have been disrespectful towards others players and dismissed their skills at the game too often."
5) "I avilo, will in the future try to be more honest and respectful. I will aim to conduct myself in a more adult manner with the community, the casters, the tournament admins and the fans of the game in general."
6) "I avilo, will stop crying wolf."
7) "I avilo am not special and thus am subject to the same rules and guidelines as participants in any given tournament."
Until you testify to this or something like it, no one of any rational/impartial standing will ever take you seriously.
I am sorry, this is just the truth. Goodluck and Have Fun.
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EPT
