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On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model.
Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop.
Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something.
But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio.
I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win.
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Reaper nerf is welcome.
If you want to quickly nerf Terran twice without waiting for feedback then I expect the same for the Phoenix+Adept situation.
I will watch competitions and streams for the next 4 weeks and if no one can find an answer to Phoenix+Adept, and if Blizz ignore it, then I will bow out of SC2, probably with a bunch of other Terrans.
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So, what I've gathered from reading through the comments is that:
• about 1 post in 5 is directly mentioning that speed buffs are bad. Quite a few are saying that a general speed nerf wouldn't be bad.
• a nerf to the reaper is needed, but increasing cooldown is not a good way to nerf the reaper. Only a couple of posters have come with suggestions for how to nerf the reaper , though.
• about 1 post in 10 asks for a nerf to the adept. This nerf is to balance TvP since the widowmine nerf makes pheonix adept much stronger.
• a few posters are against the widowmine nerf, but they seem to be neglectable minority.
• some are chering the hydra buff, others are cursing it.
• some posters argue that the corruptor buff will affect ZvT way more than ZvP. The buff won't help much vs the golden armada, but will help vs terran bio and medivac
• a few posters say that terran mech has been nerfed in many small steps and ask for a change.
• a not uncommon opinion seems to be "less gimmicks and speed, more strategy"
• several posters say that this patch is a general terran nerf and that PvZ is relatively unaffected.
I have probably missed a lot, but I wanted to make a summary just to clarify for myself and anyone interested.
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On March 03 2017 19:51 Topdoller wrote:
Far to many negative nerfs to Terran recently, and making units even faster has always proved to be a bad thing, just look at Medivacs, Mutas and Oracles .
God these balance teams sucks so much, they are simply devoid of ideas on good gameplay
I love how you say making things fast is bad and then use 3 units that really gained a lot of valuable gameplay and micro potential through their speed.
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On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win.
Yes, bu the mech people want to be viable is the "turtle to victory" sort. It's the main reason why tanks got buffed, which didn't help mech, it just made TvP horribly broken.
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On March 04 2017 06:27 JuanDi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 19:51 Topdoller wrote:
Far to many negative nerfs to Terran recently, and making units even faster has always proved to be a bad thing, just look at Medivacs, Mutas and Oracles .
God these balance teams sucks so much, they are simply devoid of ideas on good gameplay I love how you say making things fast is bad and then use 3 units that really gained a lot of valuable gameplay and micro potential through their speed.
I also think that the Medivac did gain a lot from the speed boost, gameplay wise. I love that the unit can be boosted for a little while, but is not permanently fast. Perhaps it is permanent speed that is the issue, with the Medivac you have to choose when to engage thrusters, and if you do it at the wrong time it can be costly.
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Very good patch! I think if you hate this patch you are just a mad Terran.
I don't get how people use two or three gsl series as proof that "patches should not go through, X is going to suck now".
I hope they look at the raven's auto turret damage output next. It's nice to see it get used but seeing energy trading for tanks, or killing 4-6 workers per turret is annoying.
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On March 04 2017 06:30 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. Yes, bu the mech people want to be viable is the "turtle to victory" sort. It's the main reason why tanks got buffed, which didn't help mech, it just made TvP horribly broken.
I heard that about Tankivacs as well that they were broken. But no, tanks didnt got buffed because people want to turtle.
As a terran player i would love to see liberator range to be removed since there is no ground proper counter play to it. You need a lot of ground units that can shoot up or forced to go into air. Stuff like that isnt fun to play against. Same with the current raven. The game would be a lot more fun without toxic units. Imbalance in stats is "okay" but some of the unit designs are not "okay". Mech doesnt need all that much adjustments, its stuff like a "retarded" Thor AI, shooting an overlord instead of lings. etc.
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On March 04 2017 06:44 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
As a terran player i would love to see liberator range to be removed since there is no ground counter play to it. You need a lot of ground units that can shoot up or forced to go into air. Stuff like that isnt fun to play against. Same with the current raven. The game would be a lot more fun without toxic units. Imbalance in stats is "okay" but some of the unit designs are not "okay".
Honestly, the focus on "not disturbing the Pro-scene" along with the idea that this game is already "finished" / "well-designed" is what has hurt 1v1 SC2 the most. Yeah, maybe RTS isn't ever going to be the most popular genre, but if the games we do have aren't enjoyable, exciting, and well-designed first, then there will never be any incentive for more games.
I won't go into too much detail, but I'll post the most-obvious design holes here that Blizzard either hasn't addressed or has addressed unsatisfactorily:
Terran
* Factory-based compositions are a very poor second to Barracks based compositions. Based solely upon upgrades and production Terran isn't designed to have factory units as just support.
Zerg
* Spell casting unit options are poor. Most games have 0 spell casting units involved. Somewhat conversely, anti-caster options are poor as well for zerg.
Protoss
* Basic units (units produced from the gateway before warp gate finishes) scale very poorly. While they all have significant power plateaus in the early-game, these level off immediately and then fall off a sharp cliff as the opponents' basic units continue to gain power. This forces Protoss into tech-reliant play in every game and leads to all the problems with balancing this race.
Without addressing these basic design holes, Blizzard will continue to have problems with the direction of the game.
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Does this mean a widow mine no longer one shots an Oracle? Isn't that quite a big deal? I haven't seen it mentioned.
I actually voted for the mine buff in the TL poll, but this didn't occur to me at the time.
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I really don't think the adept nerf that would help both PvZ and PvT post-mine nerf has to be huge. Like, a slight health reduction, a nerf to the upgrade efficiency, or removal of the possibility to cancel shades (ok, that nerf would be rather big, but I think this would be a wise move that would make adepts still quite mobile but a lot less abusable ; if you shade, you'll commit somewhere. Could go along with restoring shade vision). But I'm quite positive it would make for a better game overall - even as far as PvP is concerned.
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On March 04 2017 07:19 Justinian wrote:
Does this mean a widow mine no longer one shots an Oracle? Isn't that quite a big deal? I haven't seen it mentioned.
I actually voted for the mine buff in the TL poll, but this didn't occur to me at the time.
It's only on the splash. Single target is the same. So it one-shots singular oracles but not entire groups of sentries.
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Don't like the movement speed buff on corruptor. Other buffs towards it seem interesting.
Personally, I've always wanted to see the corruptor redesigned into more of a T3 debuff/tank unit that's entirely committed to AA similar to the devourer from BW.
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On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win.
When zerg, scouts, and perfectly adapt to the mech composition, do mech players say ? " well played"
No it's just : "OMG mech so weak" and they ask to remove the counter zerg has...
Like it's easy to handle the cyclon/hellion, we've lost plenty of games trying to handle but finally we've learned to deal with.
But mech player keep spamming it and we beat them, they ask on balance discussion to nerf the counter we have in order we can't beat their style anymore...
That's why we say mech players only want a deathball, they never propose an interaction where the other has 50% chance of winning, it all about mech units having no weakness.
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On March 04 2017 09:34 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. When zerg, scouts, and perfectly adapt to the mech composition, do mech players say ? " well played" No it's just : "OMG mech so weak" and they ask to remove the counter zerg has...
Not sure, i dont know all mech players and their communication skill. Do "ALL" zergs say well played? see, what i did? 
Like it's easy to handle the cyclon/hellion, we've lost plenty of games trying to handle but finally we've learned to deal with.
Thats a good thing, because both sides should scout and adjust. imho thats the part of the game. And there are many many examples for every race. But that wasnt the point. The point was that the OLD cyclone with hellion had a better interaction for BOTH players and was more useful (and didnt fuck up tvt).
But mech player keep spamming it and we beat them, they ask on balance discussion to nerf the counter we have in order we can't beat their style anymore...
That's why we say mech players only want a deathball, they never propose an interaction where the other has 50% chance of winning, it all about mech units having no weakness.
Saying "all mech players" isnt helping, its non stop parochialism. There are plenty of good suggestions been posted, including nerfs for ravens/liberators etc. But i guess its like a discussion on religion, people will never agree/find a compromise.
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On March 04 2017 06:30 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. Yes, bu the mech people want to be viable is the "turtle to victory" sort. It's the main reason why tanks got buffed, which didn't help mech, it just made TvP horribly broken.
I do not think there's a single player on planet earth that wants only turtle mech to be viable. It's fine if it is, but people since WOL launch have asked for mech to be made viable that can move out on the map.
The problem persists in that they refuse to give mech a factory AA unit like the goliath, and they then made terrible changes like making cyclones WORSE against air, and now nerfing mines more vs P, buffing swarmhost, etc.
They've consistently made mech worse patch after patch, expansion after expansion. If you look through patch notes you'll find all the mech nerfs that are done, and any time there is a "mech buff" check the patch notes - for every miniscule mech "buff" there's 5 things Z/P get buffed at the same time that hard counters mech, making mech even worse than it originally started before that patch LOL.
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Doubling the cooldown of reaper ability, are they looney? Yeah add three seconds or something of that nature to make multiple rax reaper openings less painful but you're just taking that unit and nerfing it into the ground unnecessarily.
Widow mine nerf is also a bad idea. Oracles 160, kill less than 8 marines, mine now 150. Unless oracles are simultaneously nerfed, this makes no sense. Future TvP failboating and reverting the change will come.
Corruptor change is fine to counter pesky move and shoot attacks.
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Totally agree with the widow mine nerf, was a band-aid solution in the first place and a nerf has been long overdue. Bunch of terrans getting their panties in a bunch in this thread.
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On March 04 2017 06:30 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. Yes, bu the mech people want to be viable is the "turtle to victory" sort. It's the main reason why tanks got buffed, which didn't help mech, it just made TvP horribly broken.
Yet mech players have been saying that nerfing the raven (why the fuck did they even buffed them againt in the first place?) and the BC (wich are pretty strong since the cooldown changes) are pretty okay changes.
If we only asked for turtle mech we wouldn't ask for a better AA on the cyclone or a nerf/change to SH all of wich only affect mid game mech and have no effect on turtle mech (wich has mass air AA and the main counter as the viper rather than the SH).
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On March 04 2017 10:30 Danglars wrote:
Doubling the cooldown of reaper ability, are they looney? Yeah add three seconds or something of that nature to make multiple rax reaper openings less painful but you're just taking that unit and nerfing it into the ground unnecessarily.
Widow mine nerf is also a bad idea. Oracles 160, kill less than 8 marines, mine now 150. Unless oracles are simultaneously nerfed, this makes no sense. Future TvP failboating and reverting the change will come.
Corruptor change is fine to counter pesky move and shoot attacks.
Mine still one shot oracle. It's the splash that got nerfed.
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EPT
