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On March 04 2017 09:34 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. When zerg, scouts, and perfectly adapt to the mech composition, do mech players say ? " well played" No it's just : "OMG mech so weak" and they ask to remove the counter zerg has... Like it's easy to handle the cyclon/hellion, we've lost plenty of games trying to handle but finally we've learned to deal with. But mech player keep spamming it and we beat them, they ask on balance discussion to nerf the counter we have in order we can't beat their style anymore... That's why we say mech players only want a deathball, they never propose an interaction where the other has 50% chance of winning, it all about mech units having no weakness.
And this is why i say they're just the feminists of SC2. Every single balance thread it is: "we're being opressed and mech is not viable." Meanwhile high level players have been trying banshees and other mech styles that work well, just watch some GM zerg streams.
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Hydra 90 health....always mass hydra ............
Reduce power windowmines is correct
WM = no skill
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On March 03 2017 19:19 opisska wrote:
I am strictly against any increase of movement speed of any unit. Everything already moves like it was on crack and this inflation spiral is rolling over and over. If they want to change relative speeds of units, they should just lower the movement of everything else accordingly. If this goes on for a couple more years, everything will have instant teleport. The acceleration is fine, but movement speed is stupid.
I don't mind personally, but let's talk about alternatives.
You know that you can't lower the speed of everything, as it'll mess with any interaction between units of different range. You'd have to rebalance the entire game from WoL alpha stage. Not viable option at this stage.
What you could do though, is to just lower the overall game speed by like 5% or 10%. It'd mostly not change balance (it'd be a small buff to micro and multi-task heavy builds, which I guess is good?), so could be rolled out without too much effort from developers. I personally don't really see the need, but maybe it'd address your issue better than move speed changes?
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The amount of Terrans crying in this threat, must suck that their free win match-up turns back into somewhat of an effort. And with the adept phoenix, just wall off and get a tank. Adept phoenix completely falls off in the midgame, you're going to be fine. Just no longer any instant free wins because a protoss reacted slightly too late to a random dropping of 2 mines in his mineral line.
Seriously the amount of protoss in some of the leagues fell under 25%... because playing PvT felt more like flaying yourself than having fun in a video-game.
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Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes.
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This may be a little unrelated to this particular thread, but does anyone else find the Thor's High Impact Payload (the single target anti-armor anti-air attack) to be a little underwhelming?
Now I don't know if Thors (with some support) are supposed to be an answer to air units, but if they are, I feel like they under perform versus Protoss air units.
Hydralisk buff I don't think will be too big of an issue versus mech, but I don't play at the professional level so maybe I'm talking nonsense. I could see the Hellion-Hydralisk interacting a little bit by this change, but in my experience tanks do a pretty good job of chewing through Hydralisks that I doubt that Hydralisks will become a cost-efficient solution to tanks. Obviously there's going to be a lot of other units in those interactions but I think my point still stands.
Again I'd like to stress that I don't play at the highest level to take my opinions with a grain of salt.
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On March 04 2017 12:17 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 19:19 opisska wrote:
I am strictly against any increase of movement speed of any unit. Everything already moves like it was on crack and this inflation spiral is rolling over and over. If they want to change relative speeds of units, they should just lower the movement of everything else accordingly. If this goes on for a couple more years, everything will have instant teleport. The acceleration is fine, but movement speed is stupid. I don't mind personally, but let's talk about alternatives. You know that you can't lower the speed of everything, as it'll mess with any interaction between units of different range. You'd have to rebalance the entire game from WoL alpha stage. Not viable option at this stage. What you could do though, is to just lower the overall game speed by like 5% or 10%. It'd mostly not change balance (it'd be a small buff to micro and multi-task heavy builds, which I guess is good?), so could be rolled out without too much effort from developers. I personally don't really see the need, but maybe it'd address your issue better than move speed changes?
Sure, that's just a more thought-out version  I see that changing movespeed and keeping weapon cooldowns changes unit interactions, so yeah, slow down everything a notch and then you can increase movespeeds of selected units.
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On March 04 2017 12:27 AvonMexicola wrote:
The amount of Terrans crying in this threat, must suck that their free win match-up turns back into somewhat of an effort. And with the adept phoenix, just wall off and get a tank. Adept phoenix completely falls off in the midgame, you're going to be fine. Just no longer any instant free wins because a protoss reacted slightly too late to a random dropping of 2 mines in his mineral line.
Seriously the amount of protoss in some of the leagues fell under 25%... because playing PvT felt more like flaying yourself than having fun in a video-game.
The thing is this "nerf" won't anything, noone will ever notice that. Still one-shotting oracles/stalkers etc, oblitirating probe lines.
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On March 04 2017 12:27 AvonMexicola wrote:
The amount of Terrans crying in this threat, must suck that their free win match-up turns back into somewhat of an effort. And with the adept phoenix, just wall off and get a tank. Adept phoenix completely falls off in the midgame, you're going to be fine. Just no longer any instant free wins because a protoss reacted slightly too late to a random dropping of 2 mines in his mineral line.
Seriously the amount of protoss in some of the leagues fell under 25%... because playing PvT felt more like flaying yourself than having fun in a video-game.
tank vs phoenix haha, try all races before you say something
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On March 04 2017 17:34 SCHWARZENEGGER wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 12:27 AvonMexicola wrote:
The amount of Terrans crying in this threat, must suck that their free win match-up turns back into somewhat of an effort. And with the adept phoenix, just wall off and get a tank. Adept phoenix completely falls off in the midgame, you're going to be fine. Just no longer any instant free wins because a protoss reacted slightly too late to a random dropping of 2 mines in his mineral line.
Seriously the amount of protoss in some of the leagues fell under 25%... because playing PvT felt more like flaying yourself than having fun in a video-game. tank vs phoenix haha, try all races before you say something
Hypothetical patch note:
When lifted, tanks are able to target and attack air units. Thors also get a "saddle upgrade" (baller, 2010). Game is fixed.
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On March 04 2017 10:08 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 09:34 Tyrhanius wrote:On March 04 2017 05:49 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On March 04 2017 05:30 Solar424 wrote:On March 04 2017 05:19 MockHamill wrote:
I do not understand why Blizzard hate mech so much.
Mech is already almost unplayable in all matchups against an opponent who knows how to play against mech.
Add stronger Hydras and weaker widow mines to that and what do you get?
What is the point of making an entire playstyle extinct? If being a Korean with wrist problems is the only way to play Terran then count me out.
Maybe because mech is a playstyle that encourages players to turtle on three bases until they build an unbeatable army, something they have been trying to eliminate with the LotV economy model. Yes thats why we see players like Gumiho and Ryung doing tvz mech at IEM, because they are just sitting there to collect a "free win". Yes some mech players just turtle hardcore, but many of them dont want to play like that. With the upcoming patch it will force the mech player to turtle more instead of being active. TVZ mech: old cyclone hellions were great combination and was nice interactions for both sides. Current cyclone hellion? you a-move and hope for the best, because if you get caught offguard you lose them anyway and there is nothing you can do. The old cyclone was even useful vs broodlords. Now the meta is more speed banshees. With this patch it will be even harder to do anything vs zerg or being active at all. Hellions should be the counter to hydra's, but they have become so good that hellions arent the counter anymore but just a unit. SH just kills mech straight up, just like we have seen in the mech games with Snute. Did his opponent turtle? no they were active non stop. Blizzard made protoss a lot more active in lotv by giving it the adept and disruptor, mech is "protoss hots" in Lotv, it has to stay as 1 big ball or its often too weak to do something. But the general idea is: mech = turtle, so l2p bio. I guess people love to play only vs bio playstyle, dont want to scout , dont want to see diversity because that pulls them out of their comfort zone and you cant do simply a mindless buildorder but have to adept and maybe think out of the box to get a win. When zerg, scouts, and perfectly adapt to the mech composition, do mech players say ? " well played" No it's just : "OMG mech so weak" and they ask to remove the counter zerg has... Not sure, i dont know all mech players and their communication skill. Do "ALL" zergs say well played? see, what i did?  Show nested quote +
Like it's easy to handle the cyclon/hellion, we've lost plenty of games trying to handle but finally we've learned to deal with.
Thats a good thing, because both sides should scout and adjust. imho thats the part of the game. And there are many many examples for every race. But that wasnt the point. The point was that the OLD cyclone with hellion had a better interaction for BOTH players and was more useful (and didnt fuck up tvt). Show nested quote +
But mech player keep spamming it and we beat them, they ask on balance discussion to nerf the counter we have in order we can't beat their style anymore...
That's why we say mech players only want a deathball, they never propose an interaction where the other has 50% chance of winning, it all about mech units having no weakness.
Saying "all mech players" isnt helping, its non stop parochialism. There are plenty of good suggestions been posted, including nerfs for ravens/liberators etc. But i guess its like a discussion on religion, people will never agree/find a compromise.
Good interaction with old cyclon ? Are you kidding ?
Yeah cyclon was outranging every zerg units, and hellion prevent them to be circled, so mech player just mass hellion/cyclon all the time...
The funny part is, did mech players say : "mech is on the right place ? No, they said it's weak and not viable, even said cyclon is really bad.
Now you have the supertank, you want old cyclon back to create a deathball :
tanks/hellion/oldcyclon that will crush every ground and air units...
So as "not mech players are the same" according to you, where are your propositions to allow zerg to win 50% of the time vs your supermech ?
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Hydra buff might be troublesome for PvZ but we'll have to see - everything else is fine, I guess. Although mines deserve to be nerfed even harder.
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Imo phenix adepts will be imba in tvp with this widow mines nerf.
Liberator nerf was way enough as we could lately see in the last tournaments games.
Regarding reapers nerf I think they do not realise they just penalize players who show great skills. Because reapers are really fragile and that's quite hard to macro and playing reapers too and microing them perfectly.
And from 14 to 7 that's insane. At least they could have tried 10 but that's really a bad nerf.
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On March 04 2017 10:39 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 10:30 Danglars wrote:
Doubling the cooldown of reaper ability, are they looney? Yeah add three seconds or something of that nature to make multiple rax reaper openings less painful but you're just taking that unit and nerfing it into the ground unnecessarily.
Widow mine nerf is also a bad idea. Oracles 160, kill less than 8 marines, mine now 150. Unless oracles are simultaneously nerfed, this makes no sense. Future TvP failboating and reverting the change will come.
Corruptor change is fine to counter pesky move and shoot attacks. Mine still one shot oracle. It's the splash that got nerfed.
God, I need to read extra close, thanks. +shield different from splash +shield.
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The reaper nerf won't change the fact that TvT openers are all "2reaper1cyclone or die".
The mine nerf is needed but a compensation buff on another unit is needed.
The hydra buff will make mechVZ even more crappy.
The corruptor buff won't change anything against skytoss, but it'll break the viking vs corruptor balance. So now not only can queens shoot at vikings under broodlords, but corruptors can chase down vikings? I don't see how they fail to see the insanity of this.
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Lol at people quoting IEM PvT stats as if koreans smacking down Harstem, Neeb, Showtime, and Mana means anything. In GSL we just saw Innovation go down to Stats and Ty go down to Soo, but nah win rates should be 50/50 regardless who the players are.
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On March 04 2017 20:47 tskarzyn wrote:
Lol at people quoting IEM PvT stats as if koreans smacking down Harstem, Neeb, Showtime, and Mana means anything. In GSL we just saw Innovation go down to Stats and Ty go down to Soo, but nah win rates should be 50/50 regardless who the players are.
So there's 2 Protoss who can go toe to toe with the top Terrans, mb 2-3 Zergs and the top Terrans include ~12 or more players?
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On March 04 2017 21:16 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 20:47 tskarzyn wrote:
Lol at people quoting IEM PvT stats as if koreans smacking down Harstem, Neeb, Showtime, and Mana means anything. In GSL we just saw Innovation go down to Stats and Ty go down to Soo, but nah win rates should be 50/50 regardless who the players are. So there's 2 Protoss who can go toe to toe with the top Terrans, mb 2-3 Zergs and the top Terrans include ~12 or more players?
If top toss players are beating top terran players, maybe the issue isn't balance. Are Showtime, Mana, Neeb, and Harstem as skilled as even the 2nd tier korean terrans in this tournament (Gumiho, Alive, and Ryung)? Of course not.
Is Stats is as good mechanically as Innovation or Byun or Ty despite regularly beating them? Of course not.
The issue with SC2 is and always has been design and asymmetric mechanical ceilings, not balance. Push through the next round of Toss buffs, and you will again see foreign toss scrubs beating players much better than them.
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Just wanted to say that I don't consider hellion cyclone mech. Mech is more a playstyle than just massing units with the mechanical tag.
Mech should:
- Revolve around the siege tank since it's a ground unit that's responsible for positional play. You don't want a flying siege tank that ignores terrain like the liberator.
- Be immobile aside from their harassment/meatshield unit (such as the hellion).
- Be able to defend locations with a minimal amount of units (some mines, turrets, tanks and a good sim city).
- Not revolve around massing casters such as the raven.
In essence it should be more like Brood War mech.
But I'm fully aware that's a pipe dream. I don't really care anyway seeing as I don't play the game nor watch it (but not having it is of course one of the major contributors.)
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On March 04 2017 21:34 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 21:16 ejozl wrote:On March 04 2017 20:47 tskarzyn wrote:
Lol at people quoting IEM PvT stats as if koreans smacking down Harstem, Neeb, Showtime, and Mana means anything. In GSL we just saw Innovation go down to Stats and Ty go down to Soo, but nah win rates should be 50/50 regardless who the players are. So there's 2 Protoss who can go toe to toe with the top Terrans, mb 2-3 Zergs and the top Terrans include ~12 or more players? If top toss players are beating top terran players, maybe the issue isn't balance. Are Showtime, Mana, Neeb, and Harstem as skilled as even the 2nd tier korean terrans in this tournament (Gumiho, Alive, and Ryung)? Of course not. Is Stats is as good mechanically as Innovation or Byun or Ty despite regularly beating them? Of course not. The issue with SC2 is and always has been design and asymmetric mechanical ceilings, not balance. Push through the next round of Toss buffs, and you will again see foreign toss scrubs beating players much better than them.
What makes you say this though? herO is very mechanically strong, if that's your only measure and he got absolutely destroyed. Showtime I would absolutely put at tier with Gumiho and Alive/Ryung weren't even that strong prior to patch 3.8, but they have good TvT so suddenly they do very well?
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EPT
