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On March 04 2017 22:19 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 21:34 tskarzyn wrote:On March 04 2017 21:16 ejozl wrote:On March 04 2017 20:47 tskarzyn wrote:
Lol at people quoting IEM PvT stats as if koreans smacking down Harstem, Neeb, Showtime, and Mana means anything. In GSL we just saw Innovation go down to Stats and Ty go down to Soo, but nah win rates should be 50/50 regardless who the players are. So there's 2 Protoss who can go toe to toe with the top Terrans, mb 2-3 Zergs and the top Terrans include ~12 or more players? If top toss players are beating top terran players, maybe the issue isn't balance. Are Showtime, Mana, Neeb, and Harstem as skilled as even the 2nd tier korean terrans in this tournament (Gumiho, Alive, and Ryung)? Of course not. Is Stats is as good mechanically as Innovation or Byun or Ty despite regularly beating them? Of course not. The issue with SC2 is and always has been design and asymmetric mechanical ceilings, not balance. Push through the next round of Toss buffs, and you will again see foreign toss scrubs beating players much better than them. What makes you say this though? herO is very mechanically strong, if that's your only measure and he got absolutely destroyed. Showtime I would absolutely put at tier with Gumiho and Alive/Ryung weren't even that strong prior to patch 3.8, but they have good TvT so suddenly they do very well?
Alive's TvZ has been among the best for ages. Gumiho is a perennial GSL caliber player. Ryung has been beating the best Terrans in the world and is clearly playing very well outside of TvP. Showtime is, i'm sorry to say, a foreign scrub and shouldn't be beating these guys.
Re: herO being a mechanical beast, I agree. The problem is that Protoss is poorly designed and doesn't reward mechanics anywhere near as much as Terran, so "tricky" scrub toss players like Has can beat top players in weird games whereas herO is limited by his race. He honestly should've pulled a Byun and switched to Terran, whereas foreigners like Neeb are better off playing P or Z.
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Except that even if we take only the foreign games. HeRoMaRinE and uThermal did better than Snute, ShoWTimE and MaNa in their respective group. HeRoMaRinE 2-0'd Snute and uThermal 2-1'd ShoWTimE and 2-0'd MaNa.
So even in "scrub land" Terran is overperforming and that is according to your hypothesis that it is indeed scrub land. But it's not, Serral and Nerchio are at the same skill tier as ShoWTimE and they can outperform strong players like True and Patience, because this group was not influenced by Terran dominance. Funny how that turns out.
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nothing to do with swarmhosts...
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wtf is with this zerg buff... does blizzard not look at the state of the game? do they honestly think having 50% zerg in opening bracket is a good thing?
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For anyone that that is saying the mech is viable I suggest the following:
Play mech in all matchups for your next 100 games. If your MMR after that is close to your non-mech MMR then mech is viable.
So for not a single person has managed this.
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On March 04 2017 22:53 ejozl wrote:
Except that even if we take only the foreign games. HeRoMaRinE and uThermal did better than Snute, ShoWTimE and MaNa in their respective group. HeRoMaRinE 2-0'd Snute and uThermal 2-1'd ShoWTimE and 2-0'd MaNa.
So even in "scrub land" Terran is overperforming and that is according to your hypothesis that it is indeed scrub land. But it's not, Serral and Nerchio are at the same skill tier as ShoWTimE and they can outperform strong players like True and Patience, because this group was not influenced by Terran dominance. Funny how that turns out.
wtf wrong with heromarine and uthermal being just better than snute showtime and especially mana, uthermal beat innovation at least while king god nerchio lost to pilipili 0-2 and 0-3 to stats, and true is just a whipping boy for showtime, heromarine and even some gm amateurs on ladder lately so he's not really that strong.
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On March 05 2017 03:04 MockHamill wrote:
For anyone that that is saying the mech is viable I suggest the following:
Play mech in all matchups for your next 100 games. If your MMR after that is close to your non-mech MMR then mech is viable.
So for not a single person has managed this.
Avilo played bio back in 2011 and 2012, and he was the same level as ever. He claims mech wasn't viable since, so logicaly he should have became a lower level player with mech, but no. Interesting isn't it?
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Let's see what  TY and other creative/strategic terrans come up with after the nerf. I'm betting they will find a way.
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On March 05 2017 10:11 zealotstim wrote:Let's see what TY and other creative/strategic terrans come up with after the nerf. I'm betting they will find a way.
Just like how creative Protoss found adept/phoenix style to counter the TvP meta. Except then, it will be nerfed again and the top Terrans will have to find another way .. or just grind their wrist-bones to dust. RIP Taeja and Mvp.
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On March 05 2017 10:11 zealotstim wrote:Let's see what TY and other creative/strategic terrans come up with after the nerf. I'm betting they will find a way.
The problem is what all terran players think : everytime a top terran finds a good strategy the nerf arrives.
It seems blizzard think that has to be the terrans to adapt.
Take a look on IEM games, you can see 2 very different ways to play TVP from P : Stats and Zest.
When you see Zest playing against TY, all protoss could think : Terran imba ! nerf terran !!!
Even the casters said you cannot play phenix adepts all game long. How protoss can win using only 2 units when terran has to make almost every single unit he has ?
But when you see Stats playing against Byun, you can say there is no nerf needing at all.
Stats was playing versus the best micro player with mines and reapers and he won.
I have already posted in another thread when they wanted us to test this next patch, Stats did it very well against Innovation in GSL.
He is not making phenix adepts all game long and sometimes start with a Robo. And he is using ALL the arsenal protoss has. He uses very well the oracle tag and the friendly fire. And a very good use of warp prism to destroy the terran economy.
Because that's easy to warp some adepts that kill terran economy and take care of the main battle, a terran has to micro every single unit he has and if he leaves the battle for one sec, he can loose everything with storms, disruptor shots or even with his own mines.
And as a terran I do not say Protoss imba. He played very well. But if they nerf mines and reapers yea protoss will be imba, and Zest could win only with 2 units.
So imagine what stats will do after the nerf since before he can beat Byun and Innovation ?
I hope Blizzard is following IEM and realizing they are making a huge mistake.
Terran doesn't need a nerf, but protoss players have to play as Stats shows, as us terrans have to play as INnovation or Byun.
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On March 05 2017 16:05 bObA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2017 10:11 zealotstim wrote:Let's see what TY and other creative/strategic terrans come up with after the nerf. I'm betting they will find a way. And as a terran I do not say Protoss imba. He played very well. But if they nerf mines and reapers yea protoss will be imba, and Zest could win only with 2 units. So imagine what stats will do after the nerf since before he can beat Byun and Innovation ?
There might be imbalance, but hopefully it's temporary and in the end the game design will have improved.
ByuN versus Stats was a great game. But to be honest, if I didn't know how much skill this takes from both sides, I wouldn't have enjoyed the match half as much. Stats defense and backstabbing was great. ByuN's macro and harassment was awesome.
Still, the games were decided in big army fights. And those are simply awful: shade in with mass adepts, widow mines explode, then a few seconds of "what the f*ck is happening???" and someone comes out ahead.
The whole concept here is just weird: you make mass adepts to be able to trigger widow mines and kill Terran with their own stuff and then pick off whatever's left. And, mind you, this is the best tactic Protoss has right now. How can anyone be happy with that?
So, let me say this: I really hope there' s gonna be temporary imbalance in TvP which will result in further adjustments to units like the Widow Mine, Adepts (especially the shade), Oracles, Liberators etc.
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to be honest if i didnt know much to be honest let me say at least that its simply too great
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On March 05 2017 20:03 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
to be honest if i didnt know much to be honest let me say at least that its simply too great
No.
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On March 04 2017 12:42 jalstar wrote:
Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes.
Let´s keep the lineups in mind. Terran had pretty much every top player from the race except for Maru, protoss had pretty much only stats and noone else.
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On March 06 2017 05:25 TheKhyira wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 12:42 jalstar wrote:
Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes. Let´s keep the lineups in mind. Terran had pretty much every top player from the race except for Maru, protoss had pretty much only stats and noone else.
herO and Zest are also top 5 Protosses.
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On March 06 2017 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2017 05:25 TheKhyira wrote:On March 04 2017 12:42 jalstar wrote:
Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes. Let´s keep the lineups in mind. Terran had pretty much every top player from the race except for Maru, protoss had pretty much only stats and noone else. herO and Zest are also top 5 Protosses.
Don't forget  PiLiPiLi
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On March 06 2017 05:25 TheKhyira wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2017 12:42 jalstar wrote:
Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes. Let´s keep the lineups in mind. Terran had pretty much every top player from the race except for Maru, protoss had pretty much only stats and noone else.
Protoss had every top player except Classic and sOs.
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On March 06 2017 05:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2017 05:25 TheKhyira wrote:On March 04 2017 12:42 jalstar wrote:
Terran is 40-15 so far in IEM TvP, might as well at least try out the mine nerf. It's not like Blizzard never reverse changes. Let´s keep the lineups in mind. Terran had pretty much every top player from the race except for Maru, protoss had pretty much only stats and noone else. herO and Zest are also top 5 Protosses.
Given their recent form, are they really though?
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Protoss had every top player except Classic and sOs.
They had herO, who died in the group stage after a dismal showing against ByuN (understandable), Ryung (wtf, Ryung's TvP is awful) and Solar, and they had Zest, who thinks Adept/Phoenix works in lategame.
No Classic, no sOs, both of whom have been looking quite strong in GSL, unlike Zest.
Given their recent form, are they really though?
herO you could argue had a bad day at IEM, since his GSL performance has been quite good. Zest, just no. He isn't a top Protoss right now, at least not against Terran.
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"Honestly, the focus on "not disturbing the Pro-scene" along with the idea that this game is already "finished" / "well-designed" is what has hurt 1v1 SC2 the most. Yeah, maybe RTS isn't ever going to be the most popular genre, but if the games we do have aren't enjoyable, exciting, and well-designed first, then there will never be any incentive for more games."
- I agree with this completely.
"I won't go into too much detail, but I'll post the most-obvious design holes here that Blizzard either hasn't addressed or has addressed unsatisfactorily:"
"Terran
* Factory-based compositions are a very poor second to Barracks based compositions. Based solely upon upgrades and production Terran isn't designed to have factory units as just support."
- The basic problem i see with Terran design is that marine/marauder medivac works so well that if you add anything that will have synergy with it, it can easily get out of hand. The mine and the liberator are the best two options that work well with it, and as we've seen they are controversial because of that. All other units (hellbats, tanks, and thors especially) are left behind in balance because they won't work from a design angle. The problem seems to be "if bio is good, then bio plus anything else is too good." The only solution I can come up with is to change the way medivacs work (make them have stronger mobility but no healing, for instance. In this case you would have to reintroduce medics into the game.)
- The more complicated solution would be to make tech upgrades a much higher investment across the board. The game may be too far along to change stim/warpgate/ling speed and all the rest of the upgrades that completely decide how units function in the game, but if nothing else this is an area that can be explored in RTS games in general. (Is that you peaking over the fence SC3?)
"Zerg
* Spell casting unit options are poor. Most games have 0 spell casting units involved. Somewhat conversely, anti-caster options are poor as well for zerg."
- I think what is being said here is that casters and "units that can kill other casters" (anti-casters?) are weak for zerg. Infestors and Vipers are everywhere in TvZ, so you must be referring to the other two matchups, but even in those I think this is in a good place. Zerg as a race has always been about massive amounts of swarming units. Protoss is the magic trickster race with all the bells and whistles and the reliance on tech units.
- As for the "anti-caster" issue, I think the main problem is that protoss doesn't have a good answer for high templar. If the viper "yank" ability is not working adequately, then that's as simple as a minor buff since strong single units are exactly what it's designed for. Overall, I think zerg is the most cohesive and flexible of all 3 of the races right now. More varied unit compositions, and even choices of which composition to play in various matchups. Moreover, the units actually all work pretty well together. The same cannot be said of other races.
"Protoss
* Basic units (units produced from the gateway before warp gate finishes) scale very poorly. While they all have significant power plateaus in the early-game, these level off immediately and then fall off a sharp cliff as the opponents' basic units continue to gain power. This forces Protoss into tech-reliant play in every game and leads to all the problems with balancing this race."
- Protoss had been obviously lacking in the warpgate area up until Legacy of the Void. I can agree that some late game upgrades to warpgate units could be interesting to make the race more flexible, with particular attention to the zealot or the stalker. The crackling upgrade is a great example of something like this, and it brings me back to something I mentioned earlier.
- I would love to see some expensive but very meaningful upgrades added into the game. Make an expensive upgrade where zealots can clamp units to the ground with their charge or something like that. There are several weird terran upgrades that never get used like the bunker cargo space buff, and I would love it if each game had more of a unique flavor based on what upgrades and unit compositions were chosen. Other than these basic ideas, I think protoss is in a pretty good place. To me, Protoss should be played by those who have the best micro and precision. This trickster race should always still have this flavor to it.
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EPT
