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On February 24 2017 19:48 MLuneth wrote:
On pheonix adept being OP
Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply.
Please show me a game where a pro Terran loses to phoenix/adept when the Protoss let them get to 180 supply on any patch.
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Again: can anybody tell me why reapers have grenades to begin with? IIRC blizzard wanted to make the reaper have impact in the midgame, well all the grenades did was creating the cheese/allin possibility (and most of the time you can transition perfectly fine)
Spamable aoe on an early game unit which can jump cliffs and heals itself out of combat. Just think about that for a second
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On February 24 2017 19:51 TheKhyira wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote:
On pheonix adept being OP
Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply. (I get the sense that the reaction to nix adept is based mostly on sOs and stats in gsl but if you have other examples please PM them to me)
The strength of phoenix adept is to be able to hold 3 bases with a high worker count much quicker than the terran. Talking about a counter at 180 supply is kinda silly. It´s like having lib range from the start and saying you have a proper counter when you get tempest. And phoenix adept isn´t new, it was the best PvT build for most of lotv.
The point of 180 supply terran is that you can play similarly to Zerg in ZvT with the old ultralisk, survive and macro to a point where your army comp is so much better than theirs. Nix Adept has certainly always been on the periphery of the pvt meta but it certainly wasn't an mainstay for the period of Zest (PvT) dominance of first half 2016.
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On February 24 2017 20:06 MLuneth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 19:51 TheKhyira wrote:On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote:
On pheonix adept being OP
Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply. (I get the sense that the reaction to nix adept is based mostly on sOs and stats in gsl but if you have other examples please PM them to me)
The strength of phoenix adept is to be able to hold 3 bases with a high worker count much quicker than the terran. Talking about a counter at 180 supply is kinda silly. It´s like having lib range from the start and saying you have a proper counter when you get tempest. And phoenix adept isn´t new, it was the best PvT build for most of lotv. The point of 180 supply terran is that you can play similarly to Zerg in ZvT with the old ultralisk, survive and macro to a point where your army comp is so much better than theirs. Nix Adept has certainly always been on the periphery of the pvt meta but it certainly wasn't an mainstay for the period of Zest (PvT) dominance of first half 2016.
The difference there is that the zerg economy was better than the terran one from start to finish and nothing in the terran arsenal in 3.8 powerspikes nowhere near as much as ultras did.
And I don´t get the second part, 3 base adepts was always the core of PvT in lotv and in early 2016 the adepts weren´t nerfed yet and you didn´t even need the phoenix component.
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Yet ANOTHER random balance change post by blizzard.
How about reapers and swarmhosts?
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On February 24 2017 20:06 MLuneth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 19:51 TheKhyira wrote:On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote:
On pheonix adept being OP
Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply. (I get the sense that the reaction to nix adept is based mostly on sOs and stats in gsl but if you have other examples please PM them to me)
The strength of phoenix adept is to be able to hold 3 bases with a high worker count much quicker than the terran. Talking about a counter at 180 supply is kinda silly. It´s like having lib range from the start and saying you have a proper counter when you get tempest. And phoenix adept isn´t new, it was the best PvT build for most of lotv. The point of 180 supply terran is that you can play similarly to Zerg in ZvT with the old ultralisk, survive and macro to a point where your army comp is so much better than theirs. Nix Adept has certainly always been on the periphery of the pvt meta but it certainly wasn't an mainstay for the period of Zest (PvT) dominance of first half 2016.
That's a silly argument though. If the Terran gets to 180 supply and the Protoss still hasn't transitioned out of phoenix/adept, the Protoss is gonna lose. Drilling claws or not. If the Protoss transitions - which most of the time ends up being a colossus transition (though some players like Trap prefer Storm) - it's a different story obviously (but even then, if it's a colossus transition, drilling claws mines after a significant nerf are still not what you want). But pure phoenix/adept games almost never get to 180 supply for anyone. Sometimes because the Protoss defense goes wrong and they die very quickly (e.g. TY vs Stats game 3 in GSL), but mostly because the Protoss attacks at some point and one player loses or they trade so much their supply gets reset.
Phoenix/adept was the favorite strat of herO and Myungsik for most of 2016, it was fairly common in the first year of LotV. Obviously before the adept damage nerf it was a lot more prevalent. And fun fact actually, Myungsik used phoenix/adept to destroy a drilling claws centered build by Maru in GSL season 2.
On February 24 2017 20:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yet ANOTHER random balance change post by blizzard.
How about reapers and swarmhosts?
The post mentions reapers
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On February 24 2017 20:27 Psychobabas wrote:
Yet ANOTHER random balance change post by blizzard.
How about reapers and swarmhosts?
Most of the post is about reapers...
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On February 24 2017 20:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Again: can anybody tell me why reapers have grenades to begin with? IIRC blizzard wanted to make the reaper have impact in the midgame, well all the grenades did was creating the cheese/allin possibility (and most of the time you can transition perfectly fine)
Spamable aoe on an early game unit which can jump cliffs and heals itself out of combat. Just think about that for a second
I think the Grenade is fun, it adds skill, unpredictibility and utility to the unit. I think the Combat Regeneration is the troublesome part and what allows Mass Reapers to snowball to the degree that it does.
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On February 24 2017 20:41 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 20:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Again: can anybody tell me why reapers have grenades to begin with? IIRC blizzard wanted to make the reaper have impact in the midgame, well all the grenades did was creating the cheese/allin possibility (and most of the time you can transition perfectly fine)
Spamable aoe on an early game unit which can jump cliffs and heals itself out of combat. Just think about that for a second I think the Grenade is fun, it adds skill, unpredictibility and utility to the unit. I think the Combat Regeneration is the troublesome part and what allows Mass Reapers to snowball to the degree that it does.
How is it fun though? Reapers aren't used unless you wanna build a lot early on and spam the grenades.
Other than that the purpose of the reaper is to scout, which is why i think the healing isn't that bad simply because you can use it again if you don't lose it.
Grenades though? Way too spammable. Changing the cd is not the right way either because to have an impact you would need to increase it by a lot. At that point you can just give the reaper max amount of grenades
Why aren't reapers used later in the game? Because marines are simply better. You have mobility with medivacs so the cliff jumping becomes irrelevant, reapers cost gas, etc.
The reaper is fine as a scout unit, no need to change that
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It's fun the same way Corrosive Bile is fun, it's a small minigame within the game where both players have a say in the outcome. I think the Reaper has too much power early on with snowballing like you do, but I would rather the unit be more than just a scout. That sounds a bit boring to me.
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On February 24 2017 21:04 ejozl wrote:
It's fun the same way Corrosive Bile is fun, it's a small minigame within the game where both players have a say in the outcome. I think the Reaper has too much power early on with snowballing like you do, but I would rather the unit be more than just a scout. That sounds a bit boring to me.
I think an ability is fun when it's strong on its own and not too spammable. CD is one thing, but when you simply build a lot of the spellcasters it doesn't matter all that much anymore if the spell has a few seconds more cd.
IMO smartcasting is bad for the game because it doesn't allow for strong spells, spamming simply becomes too easy.
Happened with so many abilities already and every time the ability got nerfed instead of changing the smartcasting approach to something else.
Another way would be to make it harder to get the spellcasters (increase supply/cost) but i don't like that either because it also nerfs the timing/strength of low caster numbers.
I think spammable spell design works for mobas (even though dota guys probably hate the lol approach), but for rts where you have to manage so much else, two armies which simply spam stuff at each other is incredibly boring imo 
I know that smartcasting will never change though, so the best solution i can hope for is giving each reaper a max amount of grenades. Not sure about the number, should be fairly low though.
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There are other ways than removing smartcast for spells to not be as spammable.
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On February 24 2017 21:33 Foxxan wrote:
There are other ways than removing smartcast for spells to not be as spammable.
Do you want every cd to be extremely high? That sounds awful to me tbh (because as i said, the number of spellcasters you build is oftentimes more relevant than if the cd is a few seconds higher)
Other approaches? Pls elaborate
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On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote:
I never understood the worries about the Mine. It's high risk, high reward. Good players can outmaneuver them, or even use them to their own advantage, eg. by heading 1/2 Zerglings into the Terran's units.
From a viewing perspective, they have a nice, small element of uncontrollability. It's also the only unit in the game that has it. Maybe that's why purist dislike it. But i do!
I agree that with these nerfs, Phoenix-Adept will shred Terrans in the near future. But apparently that's the way Blizzard wants to go. So let's see!
Very well said !
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On February 24 2017 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 21:33 Foxxan wrote:
There are other ways than removing smartcast for spells to not be as spammable. Do you want every cd to be extremely high? That sounds awful to me tbh (because as i said, the number of spellcasters you build is oftentimes more relevant than if the cd is a few seconds higher) Other approaches? Pls elaborate
Nah cooldowns are pure shit initself.
Iam talking more about if a spell hits next to one other spell of the same type, it could lose value
Lets take storm:
Cast storm on location a first, then b immedaitely after. The storm on location b now loses value since they are close to each other.
What value? Many numbers to play with i guess. Aoe range, damage. Eh cant think of more but there must be more than that.
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On February 24 2017 20:41 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 20:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Again: can anybody tell me why reapers have grenades to begin with? IIRC blizzard wanted to make the reaper have impact in the midgame, well all the grenades did was creating the cheese/allin possibility (and most of the time you can transition perfectly fine)
Spamable aoe on an early game unit which can jump cliffs and heals itself out of combat. Just think about that for a second I think the Grenade is fun, it adds skill, unpredictibility and utility to the unit. I think the Combat Regeneration is the troublesome part and what allows Mass Reapers to snowball to the degree that it does.
I totally agree. Nerf or remove regeneration and keep the grenades like they are.
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On February 24 2017 22:03 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 24 2017 21:33 Foxxan wrote:
There are other ways than removing smartcast for spells to not be as spammable. Do you want every cd to be extremely high? That sounds awful to me tbh (because as i said, the number of spellcasters you build is oftentimes more relevant than if the cd is a few seconds higher) Other approaches? Pls elaborate Nah cooldowns are pure shit initself. Iam talking more about if a spell hits next to one other spell of the same type, it could lose value Lets take storm: Cast storm on location a first, then b immedaitely after. The storm on location b now loses value since they are close to each other. What value? Many numbers to play with i guess. Aoe range, damage. Eh cant think of more but there must be more than that.
Interesting approach but also quite complex imo. I prefer solutions which are more intuitive to understand.
On February 24 2017 22:17 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2017 20:41 ejozl wrote:On February 24 2017 20:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Again: can anybody tell me why reapers have grenades to begin with? IIRC blizzard wanted to make the reaper have impact in the midgame, well all the grenades did was creating the cheese/allin possibility (and most of the time you can transition perfectly fine)
Spamable aoe on an early game unit which can jump cliffs and heals itself out of combat. Just think about that for a second I think the Grenade is fun, it adds skill, unpredictibility and utility to the unit. I think the Combat Regeneration is the troublesome part and what allows Mass Reapers to snowball to the degree that it does. I totally agree. Nerf or remove regeneration and keep the grenades like they are.
I mean removing the healing would obviously help a ton, but it would also weaken scouting reapers. I prefer to not touch the utility of scouting reapers and remove the dumb spamming of grenades
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Interesting approach but also quite complex imo. I prefer solutions which are more intuitive to understand.
Blizzard wont change this. Either way, it might sound complex but it really isnt if you would design spells which you see with your eyes that something happens when you spam them next to each other. Would most likely become inutive that way.
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It's not lame at all. With your approach a spell has x unique stats depending how far you wanna go. (spamming 4 close to each other, does the 4th spell lose strength compared to the 3rd, etc)
How close do these have to be to each other, etc
It's extremely complex and not intuitive by any means
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Half the people think widow mine nerf is too big, the other half thinks it's not enough.
Excellent patch I'd say...
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EPT
