EPTCommunity Feedback Update 23 February - Page 3
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Togekiss
Canada154 Posts
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JackONeill
861 Posts
"You wanna play mech ? NOPE." Well thanks i guess blizz. Good thing 3.8 made mech viable ! Corru/hydra buff is the nail in the coffin for mech TvZ, and while mechVP was getting interesting, mine nerf makes it obsolete. So back to bio every game? Great. | ||
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engesser1
264 Posts
Nerf mines. I don't think that is makes sense. They are so random sometimes. Reaper. How about to take away grenades from start and make it as upgrade in a tech lab? it's gives more time, and not so annoying. Barrack -> Reaper -> Tech lab -> Grenade upgrade (xx sec + xx minerals/xx gas). | ||
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Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
Looks like the latter. | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
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bObA
France300 Posts
On February 24 2017 08:04 Charoisaur wrote: Imo they should wait to see how the liberator nerf affects the mu before doing another patch. Weird that they do another nerf so shortly after the first one, TvP doesn't seem to be that t favored anymore from what I've seen. Also I'd prefer the liberator being nerfed even further or even removed. Also the corruptor buff is pretty significant for tvz because it makes it much easier to chase medivacs for corruptors. Overall I dislike this patch. I totally agree with that | ||
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bObA
France300 Posts
On February 24 2017 13:02 Togekiss wrote: I am skeptical that the implementation of the widow mine nerf will "fix" or balance the PvT matchup. I actually tend to foresee it drastically swinging the MU into Protoss' favour due to the recent Liberator nerf. I second that | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
My post from the previous update still applies: On February 11 2017 11:55 avilo wrote: Same thing i wrote in every previous community update thread from months ago still applies as the developers still leave many unaddressed balance issues in the game in favor of doing things completely irrelevant or flat out wrong like buffing hydras or nerfing more mech units (mines vs P). So i think people really need to see that it really is MONTHS as usual since the last patch that actually did anything to this game. The rest of the updates are flat out bullshit PR from blizzard and an excuse to not actually iterate and patch their game. Everything i've written over the past months (and years) still applies today to why SC2 has fallen as an e-sport and will continue to until people start calling out blizzard for their bullshit and get them to replace their lead balance dev with someone that knows the game much better. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
Can we PLEASE get a new balance designer? PLEASE? | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
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StorM_Sweden
Sweden45 Posts
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jimjimmie
13 Posts
i really hate all-kill unit like burrowed fungal infester/disruptor/widowmine/high templar/cheap banelings. they take tension away from the game scene. and nerf phoenix. it is disaster to T and Z. before corrupter came out pheonix can kill so many drones that zerg die of hunger. and they can destroy terran units with combination of adept. unless you nerf pheonix, dont nerf widowmine. it is only hope for terran. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary474 Posts
On February 24 2017 13:02 Togekiss wrote: I am skeptical that the implementation of the widow mine nerf will "fix" or balance the PvT matchup. I actually tend to foresee it drastically swinging the MU into Protoss' favour due to the recent Liberator nerf. Make one more cheap widow mine??? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
Widow Mine Splash damage +shield bonus reduced from +40 to +25. Honestly this is not severe enough. I think most of us agree that HotS was quite balanced even though it suffered from some design issues. Mb the balance suffered a bit, when they decided to destroy the Swarm Host, but overall this era of SC2 was the most balanced. In Korea the master race was Protoss, they pretty much dominated actually. With players like Stats, herO, Zest, sOs, Parting, Rain, Myungsik, Classic, Patience, Trap, Dear and more, though at a tier below. Right now who're there? Stats? sOs? herO? okay..and Terran dominate PvT. Innovation was never a great TvP player honestly, he's a master at TvZ and TvT, but his TvP has always had huge weakness against cheesy play, or to getting P R O T O S S E D as twitch/reddit would say. Whenever TvP favours Terran there Innovation is again winning everything. Lets say PvT is currently 42% for Protoss right now on Aligulac, it shouldn't be far off, but it seems that this community would rather keep a 42% for Protoss winrate than a 51% for Protoss. Even though 51% would suggest better balance. The issue with TvP IMO is that Terran has both the stronger straight-up-fighting capabilities AND the surperior mobile force. Usually in Starcraft 2 we see a strong dynamic with one player going for the stronger immobile composition and the other player going for a much faster mobile composition and utilizes counter-attacks as a means to delay the mobile composition until eventually his explosive economy wins, equals or loses to the greater efficiency in trading from the immobile composition. Blizzard seems determined to do the changes which impacts the game the least in terms of gameplay, while fixing the issues of balance and this patch is exactly that. I would like that instead they should try and fix the problems the game faces in terms of being frustrating, while also fixing the balance. So here's some changes I would like and you can agree or disagree with the changes, but I think the approach is important to look at. Liberator: *Requires Tech Lab. *AG damage increased from 75->85. *AA damage increased from 5->7. Banshee: *Tech Lab requirement removed. *Banshee Speed Upgrade requires Fusion Core. Widow Mine: *Shields damage removed from Primary target and Splash. *Now deals +35 Mechanical damage to the Primary target. So for one it's a 'bundles' change, meaning that we change up multiple things at the same time that compliment each other. Banshee's not requiring Tech Lab would be a huge problem in TvT, if it was the only thing we considered changing, but because it's a bundles change we have already accounted for that. Widow Mines now deal 160 dmg vs Mechanical units, so we've made the counter already. Banshees would probably still be very strong, but it is TvT and they've always had a huge impact, Widow Mines merely is here to save the day, so that it doesn't become a Banshee fest. Mb people will open Ravens+Banshees now, so that the small squad can scour around killing off Widow Mines. Furthermore 160 vs Mechanical Widow Mines would be the answer to all the doom dropping shenanigans that we see and that derail the matchup from a beautiful chess game into YOLO madness. People can already see that this suggested patch would have a huge balance change up in TvP and it might even make Protoss favoured, I'm not one to say. I will say though that the strongest composition for Protoss after this change would probably be Phoenix+Adepts, which is already a very strong composition. Now the question comes, is it okay for this composition to reign over the matchup, if it's still somewhat close to 50%? It would make it so that Protoss is now surperior when it comes to the mobile compositions, since the Widow Mine doesn't make it so that Adepts fall off heavily when we enter the mid-later stages of the game. Furthermore Chargelots are now reintroduced to the matchup and along with that comes the High Templar, be it in the form of Archons or through Storm Tech. We honestly don't know how Terran would play out if this change would go through, would Terran significantly slow down and make the slow invincible army of death? I think it would be pretty interesting, it could also be that Terrans would just go Maru style and try and end it before Storm+Chargelots hit. Anyways it's all speculative and unless we try it out on a test map it's rough to tell. Banshees could become a strong opener in TvP that players can mix in, which would be really interesting, though it will never become mainstay simply because of the Phoenix. Liberators go back to 2 shotting Stalkers, but you cannot have a single reactored Star Port, or 2 for that matter that pump out Medivacs/Vikings/Liberators for your hearts content any longer. I think 2 Star Ports pumping out 4x Liberators every 43 second is way too much and I think Terran is too favoured when it comes to this stage of the game. With Tech Lab requirement Terran slowly climbs towards the kill all army, but it is a kill all army. I think it's kind of cool to have Terran have the super strong late game with Liberators, Battlecruisers and Ghosts, but the climb is so fast with Reactored Liberators and so strong that it never even gets to Battlecruisers and even Ghosts. TvZ is the matchup I know the least about. 2 Starport Banshee is an actual build, though probably not too strong. Even though it becomes 1 Starport with a Reactor, you still cannot Research Cloak at the same time, since that would require a Teb Lab, it would change some timings up though. Liberators will have to be used a lot more diligently, since you cannot simply spam them anymore. It's legitimately a nerf to the TY Ghost+Liberator style, but most likely a buff to TvZ Mech, since Banshees are used quite heavily there. Anyways I don't think I'm all knowing, but the Corruptor speed buff will destroy the balance of Vikings vs Phoenix vs Corruptors. Hydras while it would be nice vs Carriers, it still destroy the interaction between Zerg and Protoss ground battles, if Corruptors and Hydralisks are buffed, where will Mech go? Reaper Openers in TvZ I still think Grenades are the fun part about the Reaper. Give the Reaper some bonus Health, remove it's Combat Regeneration, and give Reapers a late game upgrade, which massively increases the Grenades damage dealt to structures. | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
From a viewing perspective, they have a nice, small element of uncontrollability. It's also the only unit in the game that has it. Maybe that's why purist dislike it. But i do! I agree that with these nerfs, Phoenix-Adept will shred Terrans in the near future. But apparently that's the way Blizzard wants to go. So let's see! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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TheKhyira
115 Posts
The mine nerf is beyond ridicilous. If you take a look at the recent pro matches phoenix adept wins a disturbingly high percentage of games in extremely dominating fashion and mines are the primary counter to that. Why on earth are we trying to go back to mass adept spam again? On a sidenote the idea of nerfing reaper grenades vs buildings so you can use static defense is the dumbest suggestion I´ve heard in a very long time. This is some serious low level understanding of how the game works. | ||
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MLuneth
Australia557 Posts
On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote: I never understood the worries about the Mine. It's high risk, high reward. Good players can outmaneuver them, or even use them to their own advantage, eg. by heading 1/2 Zerglings into the Terran's units. From a viewing perspective, they have a nice, small element of uncontrollability. It's also the only unit in the game that has it. Maybe that's why purist dislike it. But i do! I agree that with these nerfs, Phoenix-Adept will shred Terrans in the near future. But apparently that's the way Blizzard wants to go. So let's see! The entire issue with the widow mine is that it is a low risk high reward unit. This is because: It costs 75/25 It can be carted around by a medivac, another unit with minimal tech cost It can 1 shot 6 workers if the opponent is distracted It requires specific tech (detection) to fully deal with Reactored out of a factory which reduces the "tech cost" of the unit present in other high reward units (dts, oracles when not transitioning to nix, mutas in pvz, nydus) I believe that ideally strong players should be able to micro around them however there are some positions where it is unrealistic to spot the line before the wm can be dodged. + Show Spoiler + https://clips.twitch.tv/dltlsgud2/SuperSnakeANELE Innovation is not a great (protoss) player, but this demonstrates a position that I mean On pheonix adept being OP Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply. (I get the sense that the reaction to nix adept is based mostly on sOs and stats in gsl but if you have other examples please PM them to me) | ||
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TheKhyira
115 Posts
On February 24 2017 19:19 Jj_82 wrote: On pheonix adept being OP Give terran a little time to figure out how to effeciently work drilling claws into their builds and they'll be fine once they hit 180 supply. (I get the sense that the reaction to nix adept is based mostly on sOs and stats in gsl but if you have other examples please PM them to me) The strength of phoenix adept is to be able to hold 3 bases with a high worker count much quicker than the terran. Talking about a counter at 180 supply is kinda silly. It´s like having lib range from the start and saying you have a proper counter when you get tempest. And phoenix adept isn´t new, it was the best PvT build for most of lotv. | ||
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